An "Insight" into the future!
Discussion
I am an ethusiast believe me, I like "Top Gear" and everything!!
I've owned quite a few vehicles in my 30 year driving career so far.
Honda 50,
Honda 90,
Le-Velocette (Noddy Bike)
Honda CX500
Reliant Robin (Before I passed my car test, drove it on my bike license, then crashed it)
Hillman Imp (Various inc 998 Rallye version)
Vauxhall Chevette
Ford Escort 1.4
Citroen ZX 1.9TD
Saab 9000 Aero
and now I have seen the light
Honda Insights x2
Bedford Rascal EV
I have rebuilt more engines than I've had hot dinners! I like to see decent cars going fast in the right places. I just prefer to poodle along now, "Tortoise and the Hare" etc
I've enjoyed all the comments. Regards Peter
I've owned quite a few vehicles in my 30 year driving career so far.
Honda 50,
Honda 90,
Le-Velocette (Noddy Bike)
Honda CX500
Reliant Robin (Before I passed my car test, drove it on my bike license, then crashed it)
Hillman Imp (Various inc 998 Rallye version)
Vauxhall Chevette
Ford Escort 1.4
Citroen ZX 1.9TD
Saab 9000 Aero
and now I have seen the light
Honda Insights x2
Bedford Rascal EV
I have rebuilt more engines than I've had hot dinners! I like to see decent cars going fast in the right places. I just prefer to poodle along now, "Tortoise and the Hare" etc
I've enjoyed all the comments. Regards Peter
I can understand the people who drive around in an exciting car not being too bothered about Hybrids and so on, but surely those who have a deathly dull shopping or commuting car could make the Insight or it's brethren seem like not such a stupid idea, if only for the cost savings along rather than any concern for the environment. No real reason you couldn't turbocharge, supercharge or add nitrous to the petrol engine to give it healthy power boost when it kicks in, could be quite a laugh then, and still be crazily economical during traffic jams/cruising.
With petrol prices and environmental concerns going the way they have been, I made the decision a while back to stick two fingers up at the green brigade and buy a second car. I used to have an awesome little Pug 205GTI, I know have a 2.0l Clio 172 as well, that's right, a whole 3900cc of gas guzzling metal that I can hoon around in whilst killing the trees and squashing the frogs. I could have a single electric powered shitbox, but then again, I like deodorant and I do actually seem to keep people entertained at dinner parties.
1) Me and my girlfriend have three cars between us and we pay road tax on all of them. Why? Because I'm a petrol head, I like cars and I'm therefore evil. Oh well, shit happens, I can afford it.
2) All are exempt from the congestion charge because I wouldn't even dream of taking any car of mine into the cess-pit of central london to get arse raped for the priveledge. Instead, I park them outside my house free, and drive them down my favourite B-roads at grin-enducing velocities laughing to myself at all the people sitting on the train on the way home from work saving the environment. Isn't it nice I don't have to sit next to the fat sweaty one on the way home!
3) The 205 is an amazing vehicle, it corners like a centrifuge and if I push it hard I can sometimes get it to do less than 180 miles to a £50 tank. Doesn't bother me though, becasue as there is no power sapping catalytic converter, it pops flames when the exhaust is hot. And everyone knows flames are cool, especially unburnt hydrocarbon flames..... mmmmm. The trees and bushes love me becasue I produce a load of CO2, and that's what they breathe to do that photosynthesis thingy right?! The clio is also pretty good, I had it at 141mph on the way to the ring this summer, (I'll post some speedo shots to demonstrate this later.)
I currently average about 20 minutes average when the traffic is light on my 19 mile daily commute, I'm still looking to break that record but people sitting in the outside lane driving a eco warrior bus keep holding me up. Thankfully there are only 257 Insights in the UK, only 70 of those are UK spec cars, and Honda have now stopped building or selling them (thank the lord!).
4) Both my cars produce loads of CO2, which the trees will breathe, and hopefully they are therefore better for the environment.
5) I'm having a right laugh hooning around the countryside taking in the best of Yorkshire's roads, whilst everyone else seems to be worrying about the planet killing itself, I wonder how the dinosaurs and cavemen coped with these viscious cycles, I'd better keep enjoying myself while we're still alive eh! After all, all these selfish people in their gas guzzling 4x4's mean that the planet will explode sometime next Thursday!
The mates and I went to Germany in September, drove 1000 miles in all of our motors and averaged about 3mpg on average, we had a right laugh though, and I'd do it again tomorrow.
My advice, buy another gas guzzler while it's still funny to watch the greenies whinge and watch the trees wither and die as you drive past. Get an Insight if you can find one, because then you can tie it to the back of a 4x4 and drag it down the road on it's roof! Now that's entertainment!
Regards and happy xmas to all.
Mac
1) Me and my girlfriend have three cars between us and we pay road tax on all of them. Why? Because I'm a petrol head, I like cars and I'm therefore evil. Oh well, shit happens, I can afford it.
2) All are exempt from the congestion charge because I wouldn't even dream of taking any car of mine into the cess-pit of central london to get arse raped for the priveledge. Instead, I park them outside my house free, and drive them down my favourite B-roads at grin-enducing velocities laughing to myself at all the people sitting on the train on the way home from work saving the environment. Isn't it nice I don't have to sit next to the fat sweaty one on the way home!
3) The 205 is an amazing vehicle, it corners like a centrifuge and if I push it hard I can sometimes get it to do less than 180 miles to a £50 tank. Doesn't bother me though, becasue as there is no power sapping catalytic converter, it pops flames when the exhaust is hot. And everyone knows flames are cool, especially unburnt hydrocarbon flames..... mmmmm. The trees and bushes love me becasue I produce a load of CO2, and that's what they breathe to do that photosynthesis thingy right?! The clio is also pretty good, I had it at 141mph on the way to the ring this summer, (I'll post some speedo shots to demonstrate this later.)
I currently average about 20 minutes average when the traffic is light on my 19 mile daily commute, I'm still looking to break that record but people sitting in the outside lane driving a eco warrior bus keep holding me up. Thankfully there are only 257 Insights in the UK, only 70 of those are UK spec cars, and Honda have now stopped building or selling them (thank the lord!).
4) Both my cars produce loads of CO2, which the trees will breathe, and hopefully they are therefore better for the environment.
5) I'm having a right laugh hooning around the countryside taking in the best of Yorkshire's roads, whilst everyone else seems to be worrying about the planet killing itself, I wonder how the dinosaurs and cavemen coped with these viscious cycles, I'd better keep enjoying myself while we're still alive eh! After all, all these selfish people in their gas guzzling 4x4's mean that the planet will explode sometime next Thursday!
The mates and I went to Germany in September, drove 1000 miles in all of our motors and averaged about 3mpg on average, we had a right laugh though, and I'd do it again tomorrow.
My advice, buy another gas guzzler while it's still funny to watch the greenies whinge and watch the trees wither and die as you drive past. Get an Insight if you can find one, because then you can tie it to the back of a 4x4 and drag it down the road on it's roof! Now that's entertainment!
Regards and happy xmas to all.
Mac
As there as so few they tend to sell for whatever people are willing to pay, I paid £8k for a 2yr old 51 plate one with 10k on the clock, that was in 2003
There was a dealer a couple with an X plate on the forecourt for for £10.5k, when I phoned up to enqire about it for someone I know who is after one they sais it sold for £500 under asking price within a week.
The dealers say the prices are actually on the up, was offered £7k for my 55k in August when in a moment of madness I looked at a Civic Hybrid (horrible thing).
There was a dealer a couple with an X plate on the forecourt for for £10.5k, when I phoned up to enqire about it for someone I know who is after one they sais it sold for £500 under asking price within a week.
The dealers say the prices are actually on the up, was offered £7k for my 55k in August when in a moment of madness I looked at a Civic Hybrid (horrible thing).
andytk said:
peterperkins said:
and as we move to a non fossil fuel transport economy they will improve, and come down in price.
I just love these quotes.
Yup, I'm sure a rare earth metal battery system will come down in price as 500 million G8 country occupants try and buy a cars worth each.
Just like coal gets cheaper the more we pull out the ground, and all that reaaallly cheap oil we're producing. No, wait, it doesn't work like that.
The big problems with batteries is that a large percentage of their costs are material costs. And so don't get cheaper the more you make. Indeed supply and demand dictate that the price goes up.
I fear that supply and demand will ensure batteries remain really expensive.
And, yes, I know that they're recyleable, but 200kg of lithium/lead/nickel per person multiplied by 500 million people is a sodding lot of stuff.
Just look at what's happening in the solar panel market right now. A lack of supply of high quality silicone crystal material (used for making computer chips too) is driving solar panel prices up, despite reductions in the cost of manufacturing them. The cost of the base material is a very real concern.
Andy
Yep, the fact that recyling such things is labour intensive, probably energetically too is bad news, especially when your looking at millions of batteries!
A local quarry to my dads farm no recycles cardboard into mulch for gardens. BUT, they use huge trucks to deliver it, huge diggers to agitate it, huge diesel generators to operate other machinery there, then move it to garden centre's with big lorries. WHY? Why not just let it decompose naturally? Why waste all that energy moving it around and doing things with something like cardboard which is gone in a few months in a garden composter?
I've always wondered what happens in floods... do these things just short and go bang? An IC engine can be shut off and/or suffer minimal damage (relatively), what do these leccy motors do if you suddenly put them under water? New motors/batteries job?
I'm just not sold on the idea of using more and more exotic methods to get from A to B... surely the old saying "keep it simple stupid" applies here? Dust to dust studies need more weighting. Government incentives for people who use efficient AND old cars, that are simple to fix, not incentivising BRAND new cars that cost the earth to make, still need alot of energy (sent with multiple losses from power plants in some cases) to work, and have questionable life span's... ie, I wouldn't buy a 5 year old Prius full stop, knowing it's battery costs it'd likely be worthless once the batteries were gone... just buy a "NEW" car with the latest "style"... Hmmmmmm!
Dave
Not even Hollywood stars have helped the old hybrid become acceptable, mainly because they have a garage full of Ferraris at home too.
There is only one way that electro-hybrid cars will ever get a hold on the sales ladder and that is the day that BMW stick a badge on one and all of middle Enngland buy it for the badge because "the planet" will always come a distant second to what the neighbours think.
There is only one way that electro-hybrid cars will ever get a hold on the sales ladder and that is the day that BMW stick a badge on one and all of middle Enngland buy it for the badge because "the planet" will always come a distant second to what the neighbours think.
peterperkins said:
Davi said:
One other question for you...
Knowing Liths ability to go into self-fuelling thermal runaway, leading to explosion and the release of lethally toxic gasses through nothing more serious than a single cell over discharge, how do you feel about the safety aspect of your van, and how have you overcome the need for cell balancing when charging that many?!
Knowing Liths ability to go into self-fuelling thermal runaway, leading to explosion and the release of lethally toxic gasses through nothing more serious than a single cell over discharge, how do you feel about the safety aspect of your van, and how have you overcome the need for cell balancing when charging that many?!
Urban Myth really, the cells I have are very rugged and don't busrt into flame, explode, etc at the drop of a hat. I monitor and balance them carefully with simple circuits on each cell. Not rocket science at all. Some cells do burn, i've seen the videos, generally only through gross abuse. Direct short circuit, grossly overcharged, punctured etc. Bit like your fuel tank really. I am confident enough to have driven it for the last 3 years with the cells over 20,000 miles. I agree the technology is not there yet, but it's comming up on the outside pretty fast now. Nanotechnology,Supercapcitors etc
I can guarantee you that it isn't an urban myth, both through person experience and through some extremely thorough testing carried out by good friends of mine. It's not likely I'll agree, but it's possible and always worries me with these cars - the gases are so lethal when emitted it's scarey.
I'll still use them, just wanted your view on this aspect
Edited by Davi on Tuesday 28th November 14:18
Insights were never a commericial success and neither are they a evolution to the next generation of powertrains. It's something of a dead-end, technologically speaking. Also, if you factor in the cost of recycling the Nickel Hydride batteries after 150,000 miles (not to mention the energy to make them in the first place) I would wager that their carbon footprint isn't all that compared to a well maintained 150,000 mile saloon car.
A small diesel car will do the same job, 80mpg is possible and don't need major components completely changing.
Of course, the big revolution will be fuel-cell cars but they are many years from commerically successful production.
A small diesel car will do the same job, 80mpg is possible and don't need major components completely changing.
Of course, the big revolution will be fuel-cell cars but they are many years from commerically successful production.
peterperkins said:
I bought 30x200ah 3.6v nominal Li-Ion cells in Sept 2003 as part of a UK enthusiast bulk purchase group. Cost £4500. Capacity about 20kwh, peak power capability about 40kw, life unknown, I had the money spare so took a gamble, It's expensive trying new technology.
could you tell me the individual cell ah, or how many cells are in one block? (I take it there are actually 30 clusters of cells rather than 30 200ah packs!!!)
next question - what are you using for the speed controller, and any details you can give? As soon as I start looking above 120 amp even at 14v they get a bit thin on the ground.
As to all the nay sayers here - if you read between the lines peter could have some valuable info here, OK we (me included) may not agree with his reasoning, but whatever this is an interesting project he's completed himself, and a considerable automotive undertaking to be at least discussed. As I said earlier I would like to build an electric vehicle myself, not because I want to save the planet, I like to burn fuel. Lots of it. But 'tis interesting. If I made one it would be all about speed and fun, feck all to do with range or eco friendly
peterperkins said:
Honda Insight
Rarer than a Jensen, Rolls, Jag, Evo, etc, etc (Insert rare car name here) OK not as fast or rare as a Veyron
Hens Teeh, Gold Dust, Rocking Horse Poo. Regards.
Rarer than a Jensen, Rolls, Jag, Evo, etc, etc (Insert rare car name here) OK not as fast or rare as a Veyron
Hens Teeh, Gold Dust, Rocking Horse Poo. Regards.Rust free Fiat Tipo's are probably rarer than any of those too. Rarity doesnt equal exclusivity.
215cu said:
Of course, the big revolution will be fuel-cell cars but they are many years from commerically successful production.
or supercapicitors, which they are making good headway with. Wouldn't change the need for the electricity to have to come from somewhere, but at least you could fuel up in seconds at a station rather than having to park for hours for a recharge!
215cu said:
Insights were never a commericial success and neither are they a evolution to the next generation of powertrains. It's something of a dead-end, technologically speaking. Also, if you factor in the cost of recycling the Nickel Hydride batteries after 150,000 miles (not to mention the energy to make them in the first place) I would wager that their carbon footprint isn't all that compared to a well maintained 150,000 mile saloon car.
A small diesel car will do the same job, 80mpg is possible and don't need major components completely changing.
Of course, the big revolution will be fuel-cell cars but they are many years from commerically successful production.
A small diesel car will do the same job, 80mpg is possible and don't need major components completely changing.
Of course, the big revolution will be fuel-cell cars but they are many years from commerically successful production.
Surely this is all down to basic energy conversion, making batteries to power cars is going to take the same effort as using fossil fuel, it's just a different way of going about it. The point is can it be done as a substitute when there is no longer any fossil fuel to convert.
Davi said:
215cu said:
Of course, the big revolution will be fuel-cell cars but they are many years from commerically successful production.
or supercapicitors, which they are making good headway with. Wouldn't change the need for the electricity to have to come from somewhere, but at least you could fuel up in seconds at a station rather than having to park for hours for a recharge!
Agreed! I think the argument for lots of nuclear power has been and gone. Would be brilliant if water could be cracked by the car engine (using the potential energy of the car going downhill, for example). Water in, water out
Amazing to think that man has gone to the moon on the back of these babies (fuel cells) yet man has yet to take a giant leap in getting his wheels to the cornershop without burning fossil fuel.
Edited by 215cu on Tuesday 28th November 14:31
Apache said:
215cu said:
Insights were never a commericial success and neither are they a evolution to the next generation of powertrains. It's something of a dead-end, technologically speaking. Also, if you factor in the cost of recycling the Nickel Hydride batteries after 150,000 miles (not to mention the energy to make them in the first place) I would wager that their carbon footprint isn't all that compared to a well maintained 150,000 mile saloon car.
A small diesel car will do the same job, 80mpg is possible and don't need major components completely changing.
Of course, the big revolution will be fuel-cell cars but they are many years from commerically successful production.
A small diesel car will do the same job, 80mpg is possible and don't need major components completely changing.
Of course, the big revolution will be fuel-cell cars but they are many years from commerically successful production.
Surely this is all down to basic energy conversion, making batteries to power cars is going to take the same effort as using fossil fuel, it's just a different way of going about it. The point is can it be done as a substitute when there is no longer any fossil fuel to convert.
We have enough fossil fuel for another 100 years and both of the Insight and Prius have fossil fuel engines. The Prius and Insight when this is taken into consideration offer an mpg no better than a 1.4 Polo TDi.
*IF* we were serious and wanted to tackle this 21st century fuel crisis then we could grow as much as 25% of our fuel needs through bio-diesel and ethanol/methanol and use the carbon cycle in a much more productive manner. However, you have to remember we have a government addicted to fuel duty every bit as much as we are to our fossil fuel cars.
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