RE: Tesla Model S Revealed
Discussion
neon_fox said:
EK993 said:
Hows this going to work in the real world though?
Run out of go on a public road? Options for recovery? You can't siphon petrol from a generous passer by or walk to the nearest petrol station with a jerry can. You're stuffed. I've got an Elise and heard similar "what if" stories about its lack of spare wheel. I've done 50K in it and never had a puncture, so more "so what", than "what if". You might as well say don't go anywhere unles syou are carrying extra fuel, water, full set of spares, toolkit, jacks, etc. If your journey is across the outback then fine, be prepared for anything but otherwise just carry a mobile phone.
AdrianR
p.s. Have you actually tried to syphon petrol from a modern car? Almost impossible.
The problem with traditional (in the sense of battery + electric motor) electric cars like this is that they are a narrow view on the energy issue. A bit like corn based fuels, the impact of growing corn for fuel rather than using the land for food wasn't taken into account and the idea soon back-fired.
The same thing applies to electric cars. The assumption is that it'll be wonderful to have all of us plug into the grid at night to charge up our cars - but no consideration is given for the strain that will put on our power stations.
Brown outs and black outs have affected New York without all of this extra load and if renewable sources can't provide sufficient power for todays demands they don't stand a chance if we're all driving electric.
The Honda FCX is a move in the right direction as it can contribute power to the system rather than just taking it. Whether a country of fuel cell vehicles could contribute enough to make solar, wind and tidal power viable I don't know, but any solution that only tackles it's own issue without regard for the whole energy chain is a big risk.
The same thing applies to electric cars. The assumption is that it'll be wonderful to have all of us plug into the grid at night to charge up our cars - but no consideration is given for the strain that will put on our power stations.
Brown outs and black outs have affected New York without all of this extra load and if renewable sources can't provide sufficient power for todays demands they don't stand a chance if we're all driving electric.
The Honda FCX is a move in the right direction as it can contribute power to the system rather than just taking it. Whether a country of fuel cell vehicles could contribute enough to make solar, wind and tidal power viable I don't know, but any solution that only tackles it's own issue without regard for the whole energy chain is a big risk.
turbosei said:
The Honda FCX is a move in the right direction as it can contribute power to the system rather than just taking it. Whether a country of fuel cell vehicles could contribute enough to make solar, wind and tidal power viable I don't know, but any solution that only tackles it's own issue without regard for the whole energy chain is a big risk.
Woah, woah, woah! You were doing fine until you got to this paragraph... how exactly can fuel cells contribute to a country's electric supply?! Unless you were importing hydrogen, this is simply isn't true, and on a global scale this simply CANNOT be true under any circumstances. The only way you are going to get hydrogen cars on the road is if you have a glut of surplus electricity to start with.Mr Gear said:
turbosei said:
The Honda FCX is a move in the right direction as it can contribute power to the system rather than just taking it. Whether a country of fuel cell vehicles could contribute enough to make solar, wind and tidal power viable I don't know, but any solution that only tackles it's own issue without regard for the whole energy chain is a big risk.
Woah, woah, woah! You were doing fine until you got to this paragraph... how exactly can fuel cells contribute to a country's electric supply?! Unless you were importing hydrogen, this is simply isn't true, and on a global scale this simply CANNOT be true under any circumstances. The only way you are going to get hydrogen cars on the road is if you have a glut of surplus electricity to start with.This would reduce load on the grid, which is a major concern if electric car popularity grows. That's how it helps the supply.
neon_fox said:
EK993 said:
Hows this going to work in the real world though?
It doesn't. 4 hrs for a charge is not 4 mins for a fill up at a petrol station. If you don't get your expected mileage or you get stuck in traffic or you need to take a detour because of an accident etc. then what?Oh, I'm running short of petrol, I'll just cruise around till I find a petrol station. No. I'll just cruise around till I can find a recharging point and then wait 4 hrs. Let's say you need 1/4 charge to get back, that's still a 1 hour wait.
Run out of go on a public road? Options for recovery? You can't siphon petrol from a generous passer by or walk to the nearest petrol station with a jerry can. You're stuffed.
The car looks great, but the logistics just don't support the vast majority of highway users. The weight is disappointing, but that will be all the batteries. A hybrid system would have been a more usable bet, and let us not even get started about clean energy generation for the grid vs. petrol engine CO2 or Nitrogen/Sulfur outputs. I'm quite sure that once you factor in the environmental impact of those huge battery systems (which won't last more than a few years at most) it's going to be a green fiasco.
Can't see what the problem in there would be, if there are batteries waiting in "battery stations" at a reasonable distance from each other... And let's be honest: who can, in his whole time of driving claim that they NEVER ran out of fuel, and had to push a car???
Personally, I wish them a lot of good luck, if they can bring the prices to an acceptable level, I'm not going to shoot them to try to bring an alternative power source to the market...
dino ferrana said:
Mr Gear said:
turbosei said:
The Honda FCX is a move in the right direction as it can contribute power to the system rather than just taking it. Whether a country of fuel cell vehicles could contribute enough to make solar, wind and tidal power viable I don't know, but any solution that only tackles it's own issue without regard for the whole energy chain is a big risk.
Woah, woah, woah! You were doing fine until you got to this paragraph... how exactly can fuel cells contribute to a country's electric supply?! Unless you were importing hydrogen, this is simply isn't true, and on a global scale this simply CANNOT be true under any circumstances. The only way you are going to get hydrogen cars on the road is if you have a glut of surplus electricity to start with.This would reduce load on the grid, which is a major concern if electric car popularity grows. That's how it helps the supply.
However, you could put micro-generated electricity to better use than cracking hydrogen in my opinion.
Well leaving to one side that plug in electric vehicles running off of the grid are actually an environmental disaster, what this really would do is restore the traffic congestion to places like London. Even if it made less than half of the claimed range in the real world: at 4 bucks a day this provides a very viable alternative (even after parking charges) to the rail and tube network to the bulk of the South East commuter belt.
I tentatively like it, and in principle at least I would certainly consider having one for getting to work rather than the current extortionate, unreliable and hopelessly ineffective foot/train/tube combination that I don't currently have a viable alternative to...
I tentatively like it, and in principle at least I would certainly consider having one for getting to work rather than the current extortionate, unreliable and hopelessly ineffective foot/train/tube combination that I don't currently have a viable alternative to...
PascalBuyens said:
I think, if you would reread the article, that it's saying that the domestic (220v) outlet will charge the car in 4hrs. The "refilling stations" will actually change the batteries, as far as I understood...
If you read the actual press release, it says they are recharging stations. It also quotes a 2 hour charge off 440V. Swapping batteries is to do with buying the 180mile battery pack and renting the 300 mile pack from your dealer if you need to go further.turbosei said:
Brown outs and black outs have affected New York without all of this extra load and if renewable sources can't provide sufficient power for todays demands they don't stand a chance if we're all driving electric.
Browns outs and Black outs in New York (and California for that matter) are a result of a lack of capacity increase investment following privatisation of the electricity industry. A similar situation was threatening the UK when I working in electrictiy.Maybe I am not getting it, but I don't see a problem with the range. If you drive home, park it, you plug it in. Every morning it has a "full tank" so to say, so running out of power would only happen if you have a very long journey to work and you forgot to plug it in for a few days. I'd say if there is less chance of running out of power than there is petrol using this system.
neon_fox said:
EK993 said:
Hows this going to work in the real world though?
It doesn't. 4 hrs for a charge is not 4 mins for a fill up at a petrol station. If you don't get your expected mileage or you get stuck in traffic or you need to take a detour because of an accident etc. then what?Oh, I'm running short of petrol, I'll just cruise around till I find a petrol station. No. I'll just cruise around till I can find a recharging point and then wait 4 hrs. Let's say you need 1/4 charge to get back, that's still a 1 hour wait.
Run out of go on a public road? Options for recovery? You can't siphon petrol from a generous passer by or walk to the nearest petrol station with a jerry can. You're stuffed.
The car looks great, but the logistics just don't support the vast majority of highway users. The weight is disappointing, but that will be all the batteries. A hybrid system would have been a more usable bet, and let us not even get started about clean energy generation for the grid vs. petrol engine CO2 or Nitrogen/Sulfur outputs. I'm quite sure that once you factor in the environmental impact of those huge battery systems (which won't last more than a few years at most) it's going to be a green fiasco.
I don't know about you but I NEVER run out of petrol. NOT because i think "ooh i'm low so i'll just nip to the nearest drinking hole and fill up" but because I know the day before I need to fill up and go well in time and fill up?!?!?! Where do you people come from?
Also I go to sleep every night.. in a house.. in England.. in Europe where I am never more than a few feet from a plug socket.. so I couldn't give a monkeys if it takes 4 hours or 1 hour to charge - it will always be faster than I can sleep!!! ( I need 9 hours but I still don't know many people who manage on less than 5 hours sleep!)
I could go to London (from Leeds) then plug the motor in at my aunties! (or a hotel - plenty with car plug sockets now) and then spend the next day driving around london and drive home the next. but it would be more than adequate for my 20 - 50 mile per day average!
Also what a beut of a car this is, If this was on sale today and I was willing to pay 50k for a top flight 550i or 535d at 40k or Audi S5 at £45k for example, I would definitely consider this for a few bob more! In exchange for the huge economy.
And whilst is it sat overnight charging and the local chavs go socket dropping and unplugging them all/damaging the wires which run into the streets.
Plus, 300 miles is fine if realistic BUT what happens if you get stuck in a traffic jam? Until such time as all petrol stations also have a battery pack to swap over. And if a 220v charges in four hours how much will a station charge to quickly charge it up? Then if it needs to change the battery pack, how much will they charge for that?
Just not feasible currently IMHO and would take a major change from fuel companies. It did work (ish) for LPG but people with LPG know the only 2-3 petrol stations near them which sell LPG IME....
Plus, 300 miles is fine if realistic BUT what happens if you get stuck in a traffic jam? Until such time as all petrol stations also have a battery pack to swap over. And if a 220v charges in four hours how much will a station charge to quickly charge it up? Then if it needs to change the battery pack, how much will they charge for that?
Just not feasible currently IMHO and would take a major change from fuel companies. It did work (ish) for LPG but people with LPG know the only 2-3 petrol stations near them which sell LPG IME....
Lucozade said "Wonder why they didn't try to use some solar panel arrangements on the roof to trickle charge the batteries when the car is parked outside and to keep the batteries topped up. Too costly, too heavy, etc."
My calculations suggest that, assuming you could fit 2sqm of solar panel on there somewhere, with an efficiency of 10%, if you left it outside during an eight hour working day in summer in England, you would accumulate 16.8 miles worth of charge - not to be sniffed at.
The mass would be a few kg at most. I don't know why they didn't do this. (See also the Eco Elise.) I suppose it would be an easy thing to integrate into the design, although it would mean your car had to be essentially black.
I really like it. The general idea of electric cars is very good, for all the reasons discussed above. Furthermore, if you charge them overnight, general demand is low and so they can use excess electricity - economy7 and all that.
The website is very short on details though. For example, does it have regenerative braking? I'm not sure who is going to order it on the basis of what we are told here.
Cheers,
Nick
My calculations suggest that, assuming you could fit 2sqm of solar panel on there somewhere, with an efficiency of 10%, if you left it outside during an eight hour working day in summer in England, you would accumulate 16.8 miles worth of charge - not to be sniffed at.
The mass would be a few kg at most. I don't know why they didn't do this. (See also the Eco Elise.) I suppose it would be an easy thing to integrate into the design, although it would mean your car had to be essentially black.
I really like it. The general idea of electric cars is very good, for all the reasons discussed above. Furthermore, if you charge them overnight, general demand is low and so they can use excess electricity - economy7 and all that.
The website is very short on details though. For example, does it have regenerative braking? I'm not sure who is going to order it on the basis of what we are told here.
Cheers,
Nick
Many people in many cities across Europe and the world cannot park outside their house. This includes some very expensive houses in major cities. Therefore they might struggle to charge it.
Installing a few strategic hydrogen stations is going to be a lot easier than putting millions of charging points into these streets to be filled with superglue, vandalised and break down.
Installing a few strategic hydrogen stations is going to be a lot easier than putting millions of charging points into these streets to be filled with superglue, vandalised and break down.
dino ferrana said:
Many people in many cities across Europe and the world cannot park outside their house. This includes some very expensive houses in major cities. Therefore they might struggle to charge it.
Installing a few strategic hydrogen stations is going to be a lot easier than putting millions of charging points into these streets to be filled with superglue, vandalised and break down.
This isn't a car for everyone. This is a car for early adopters who WANT it and will make it work for themselves. It's not priced like a Fiesta, and if you have not got a garage to put it in, you may find it difficult to find a home for it. But perhaps you'll be parking in an underground car park at work during the day? Installing a few strategic hydrogen stations is going to be a lot easier than putting millions of charging points into these streets to be filled with superglue, vandalised and break down.
But it's not that difficult installing plugs in the kerb... as soon as someone realises they can make money out of it they'll be all over it, I'm sure.
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