RE: Japanese Car Makers Back 200mph Eliica EV

[renrut]

annodomini2 said:

renrut said:

Economics - How much is it to hire a big car for a day? £50 maybe? So you could buy an electric car then hire a big car to use it for that 300 mile trip you make once a month to visit friends/relatives/whatevers. What if you decide its such a long way you may as well make a weekend of it? Well that'll make it more like £120 so that you can set of friday and come back sunday night. Do that 10x a year thats over £1000 before you've started. Add time and hassle for arranging the hire car, drop offs, pick ups etc, the occasional times they send the wrong one. How much does it cost to run around in a big car all year vs a small car? For some people it won't be very much, for others it will be huge. Mostly those it doesn't suit won't have a big car anyway. There are a lot of factors here and I'm sure a lot of people get it very wrong (diesels for the 2 mile commute?) but public education seems to be stuck on the co2 and speed headlines.

Missed the fact that certainly for the near term, electric cars are vastly more expensive.

But you don't cover fuel, electric cars in terms of fuel are generally accepted to be cheaper to run.

Assuming the depreciation on a new electric car is in line with typical conventionally fuelled cars, in your scenario the electric car would have to be cheaper overall by a £1000 a year to be cost effective. Obviously this assumes new sales only.

I didn't want to get into them being more expensive as economies of scale have a huge effect. However as it currently stands, and I don't want to pick on Nissan but between them and Chevy they're the first to give real serious attempts at it.

Pick 10,000 miles as an 'average' driver - 192 miles a week ~ 38 miles a day. Assuming both cars are worthless at the end of 8 years. Nissan's own 1.5 dci Qashqai can be had for £15K and will give 10K miles in £1160 worst case (diesel at £1.20 only getting 47mpg, best is 64mpg). Compare that to the Leaf which is 107bhp and £28K (minus £5K subsidy). Fuel costs for 10K miles? Over 8 years it would have to be £1000 a year cheaper to break even. So £160 for every 10K miles. Nissan quote £1.70 for 100 mile charge = £170 for 10K.

So the big question that will confirm or deny the viability of EVs - is electricity likely to rise relative to oil or the other way round?

[Mr Gear]

renrut said:

annodomini2 said:

renrut said:

Economics - How much is it to hire a big car for a day? £50 maybe? So you could buy an electric car then hire a big car to use it for that 300 mile trip you make once a month to visit friends/relatives/whatevers. What if you decide its such a long way you may as well make a weekend of it? Well that'll make it more like £120 so that you can set of friday and come back sunday night. Do that 10x a year thats over £1000 before you've started. Add time and hassle for arranging the hire car, drop offs, pick ups etc, the occasional times they send the wrong one. How much does it cost to run around in a big car all year vs a small car? For some people it won't be very much, for others it will be huge. Mostly those it doesn't suit won't have a big car anyway. There are a lot of factors here and I'm sure a lot of people get it very wrong (diesels for the 2 mile commute?) but public education seems to be stuck on the co2 and speed headlines.

Missed the fact that certainly for the near term, electric cars are vastly more expensive.

But you don't cover fuel, electric cars in terms of fuel are generally accepted to be cheaper to run.

Assuming the depreciation on a new electric car is in line with typical conventionally fuelled cars, in your scenario the electric car would have to be cheaper overall by a £1000 a year to be cost effective. Obviously this assumes new sales only.

I didn't want to get into them being more expensive as economies of scale have a huge effect. However as it currently stands, and I don't want to pick on Nissan but between them and Chevy they're the first to give real serious attempts at it.

Pick 10,000 miles as an 'average' driver - 192 miles a week ~ 38 miles a day. Assuming both cars are worthless at the end of 8 years. Nissan's own 1.5 dci Qashqai can be had for £15K and will give 10K miles in £1160 worst case (diesel at £1.20 only getting 47mpg, best is 64mpg). Compare that to the Leaf which is 107bhp and £28K (minus £5K subsidy). Fuel costs for 10K miles? Over 8 years it would have to be £1000 a year cheaper to break even. So £160 for every 10K miles. Nissan quote £1.70 for 100 mile charge = £170 for 10K.

So the big question that will confirm or deny the viability of EVs - is electricity likely to rise relative to oil or the other way round?

£1000 is only 20 tanks of fuel. One tank a fortnight? I think a lot of people get through that. And that takes no account of servicing costs which are negligible on an electric car.

If you live in London, you only have to driv into the congestion charge zone 129 times in a year and that £1000 has once again been paid for.

My neighbour has a G-wiz which he uses exclusively for trips to central London. He says it's cheaper than the train or driving.

[annodomini2]

renrut said:

So the big question that will confirm or deny the viability of EVs - is electricity likely to rise relative to oil or the other way round?

Neither, it will vary based on demand and cost of supplying the electricity, whatever technology that involves

For oil, if cheap, reliable, practical electric cars become available, demand for oil will drop drastically. Especially if a potentially cheap source of electricity becomes available.

Such as Fusion.

Lots of nations are looking at Thorium based fission reactors, as they are supposedly much cleaner and safer than conventional uranium based tech.

[renrut]

Mr Gear said:

renrut said:

I didn't want to get into them being more expensive as economies of scale have a huge effect. However as it currently stands, and I don't want to pick on Nissan but between them and Chevy they're the first to give real serious attempts at it.

Pick 10,000 miles as an 'average' driver - 192 miles a week ~ 38 miles a day. Assuming both cars are worthless at the end of 8 years. Nissan's own 1.5 dci Qashqai can be had for £15K and will give 10K miles in £1160 worst case (diesel at £1.20 only getting 47mpg, best is 64mpg). Compare that to the Leaf which is 107bhp and £28K (minus £5K subsidy). Fuel costs for 10K miles? Over 8 years it would have to be £1000 a year cheaper to break even. So £160 for every 10K miles. Nissan quote £1.70 for 100 mile charge = £170 for 10K.

So the big question that will confirm or deny the viability of EVs - is electricity likely to rise relative to oil or the other way round?

£1000 is only 20 tanks of fuel. One tank a fortnight? I think a lot of people get through that. And that takes no account of servicing costs which are negligible on an electric car.

If you live in London, you only have to driv into the congestion charge zone 129 times in a year and that £1000 has once again been paid for.

My neighbour has a G-wiz which he uses exclusively for trips to central London. He says it's cheaper than the train or driving.

Does that mean a G-wiz doesn't count as driving

I was doing over 200 miles a week and only filling once every fortnight in a far less than class leading car. It can easily be done in more modern and efficient ones.

Congestion charge is an artificial limit. That's like saying LPG is the answer because there's naff all duty on it. That sort of thing can change in a blink of government. It did for diesel.

Servicing will be the big question, Dealers get a lot of money from servicing, where will that revenue stream go? Will they keep faux servicing just to keep you coming in for bits to be replaced unnecessarily? Arguably an ICE car should only need oil, filters and maybe a cambelt in 80,000 miles. Total cost for a sensible car maybe £100 a go plus a cambelt at maybe twice or three times that. So once a year for 8 years ~ £1000. Will an EV need nothing? I doubt it but I agree it shouldn't need much, maybe an air filter to keep the cooling air clean and free of debris but not an actual necessity. Both EV and ICE will need tyres, suspension bushes, general wear and tear items so we can ignore them for the purpose of the analysis.

A G-wiz is £10K +/- £1000 for options. That's similar to having a scooter or a motorbike for London, something which I don't have issue with (London is a very different transport setup to the rest of the country too but lets not go there). I have issue with £23K for a normal size car that is a pure commuter appliance. That's more than the average family car and it can't do as much even if it can do it cheaper.

[anything fast]

Mr Gear said:

anything fast said:

thinfourth2 said:

anything fast said:

thinfourth2 said:

anything fast said:

thats really cheered me up!!!! i'd rather walk ta

Well walk then as electric cars are a big part of the future of motoring

And if you want to stick with the old traditional ways use a horse

nah... i will just drive my 5.7 litre supercharged yank tank and speed up global warming... mind you its less polluting than a horse or a cow!

You belive in global warming



Oh dear

not at all!! thats why i dont give 2 hoots!!

How is it less polluting than a horse or cow?

methane gas and co2, 1 cow produces more pollutant than 2 average sized cars over its lifetime!!!

[Mr Gear]

anything fast said:

Mr Gear said:

anything fast said:

thinfourth2 said:

anything fast said:

thinfourth2 said:

anything fast said:

thats really cheered me up!!!! i'd rather walk ta

Well walk then as electric cars are a big part of the future of motoring

And if you want to stick with the old traditional ways use a horse

nah... i will just drive my 5.7 litre supercharged yank tank and speed up global warming... mind you its less polluting than a horse or a cow!

You belive in global warming



Oh dear

not at all!! thats why i dont give 2 hoots!!

How is it less polluting than a horse or cow?

methane gas and co2, 1 cow produces more pollutant than 2 average sized cars over its lifetime!!!

Yes, but what do cows eat? Not coal or oil, but GRASS, which has spent its life absorbing CO2 from the atmosphere. You know why methane isn't hyped as a greenhouse gas even though it has a strong greenhouse effect? It's because it's an unstable gas that breaks down very quickly and therefore doesn't accumulate in the atmosphere.

Since cows don't produce NOX, particulate matter etc etc etc, it would take someone with a SERIOUSLY deficient knowledge of this subject to argue that a cow is more polluting than a car.

[frosted]

Yes but ev vehicles are maintenance free

Don't see why all the hate on here for ev 's

[renrut]

frosted said:

Yes but ev vehicles are maintenance free

Don't see why all the hate on here for ev 's

Only the motor is 'maintenance free' and even then there will be maintenance on high milers like bearings and windings. You will still have all the other bits that make a car - suspension, drivetrain, electrics, electronics, tyres etc.

The ex's dad worked for many companies supplying industrial electric motors. he's worked in both design and technical support. They still need maintenance just not at the same rate or type as petrol motors. And things do go wrong with them and they were not as stressed as the motors that will be getting used in the EVs.

[Mr Gear]

renrut said:

frosted said:

Yes but ev vehicles are maintenance free

Don't see why all the hate on here for ev 's

Only the motor is 'maintenance free' and even then there will be maintenance on high milers like bearings and windings. You will still have all the other bits that make a car - suspension, drivetrain, electrics, electronics, tyres etc.

Not being funny, but none of those things get serviced anyway. My car is 9 years old and NONE of the above have been serviced... ever. The tyres have been replaced a few times, but the only thing that actually gets serviced is the engine.

[renrut]

Mr Gear said:

renrut said:

frosted said:

Yes but ev vehicles are maintenance free

Don't see why all the hate on here for ev 's

Only the motor is 'maintenance free' and even then there will be maintenance on high milers like bearings and windings. You will still have all the other bits that make a car - suspension, drivetrain, electrics, electronics, tyres etc.

Not being funny, but none of those things get serviced anyway. My car is 9 years old and NONE of the above have been serviced... ever. The tyres have been replaced a few times, but the only thing that actually gets serviced is the engine.

You sure? Not even a A/C filter? If so you have either been very lucky, don't live in an area with poor roads or don't do a large mileage.

FWIW most diesel engines will survive 100K without servicing. They'd be a dog at the end of it but if that was a priority design goal I'm sure they'd manage it without too much effort. They've already stretched to 20K+ on fleet cars as recommended service intervals.

[Mr Gear]

renrut said:

Mr Gear said:

renrut said:

frosted said:

Yes but ev vehicles are maintenance free

Don't see why all the hate on here for ev 's

Only the motor is 'maintenance free' and even then there will be maintenance on high milers like bearings and windings. You will still have all the other bits that make a car - suspension, drivetrain, electrics, electronics, tyres etc.

Not being funny, but none of those things get serviced anyway. My car is 9 years old and NONE of the above have been serviced... ever. The tyres have been replaced a few times, but the only thing that actually gets serviced is the engine.

You sure? Not even a A/C filter? If so you have either been very lucky, don't live in an area with poor roads or don't do a large mileage.

FWIW most diesel engines will survive 100K without servicing. They'd be a dog at the end of it but if that was a priority design goal I'm sure they'd manage it without too much effort. They've already stretched to 20K+ on fleet cars as recommended service intervals.

Absolutely sure. No A/C!

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