997.1 GT3 - 911 Virgin

997.1 GT3 - 911 Virgin

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IMI A

6,417 posts

139 months

Sunday 20th January
quotequote all
There’s definitely a few people on this forum who are penny wise and pound foolish.

I bought a mint 997.2 C4S for £48k via 911v at full asking price back in Match 17. Sold via 911v with 10-12k miles more 12 months later ie March 18 for £49k. Zero hassle. Bought unseen and when sold car was picked up on a trailer. Had 3-4 similar experiences with them.

The thought just as an example of buying private where you take a flight to Scotland and the car isn’t as described is a nightmare scenario. Well it is for people who value their time. Sure you can get a lovely car privately if you’re in the know. If you aren’t specialist dealer a good route.

RC1

3,547 posts

157 months

Sunday 20th January
quotequote all
i've never bought from a dealer in 20 years and value my time but not convinced that makes me foolish

GT4RS

1,411 posts

135 months

Sunday 20th January
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Porsche911R said:
GT4RS said:
Prices seem to be all over the place, you only have to look at the length of time some cars 997 gt3 cars have been advertised for sale.

I notice the white gen 1 997 CS is back up again after it suddenly jumped up in price to 102K for it to be marked sold a day or two later then to come back on the market at a price lower than originally advertised, think now up for 96k which crazy.

Markets gone mad, 997 prices are going to get hit hard IMO as they seemed to be the last to climb in price out of the Porsche GT3 cars.IMO a nice gen 2 997 gt3 with sub 20k on the clock low owner full history is a 80K car tops, asking prices of 109k is just crazy. If you bought now and tried to sell in a year it wouldn't shock me if you get offered 70k trade to buy it.

I think we are now starting to see the owner / investors trying to get out and these owners are trying to sell cars on SOR with unrealistic asking prices are causing this crazy pricing ATM.

I notice the nice low miles 991.1 GT3 CS is now in JZM for 109k after the owner tried to sell it privately for months on here at 112k. So this owner either sold it for around 90k to JZM or its on SOR with the hope he's going to get a fraction more for this car. I contacted him to express my interest when it first went up for sale privately and made an indication of what I felt it was worth based on a private sale which he turned down. Looking at now, if he sold it to JZM at a trade bid my private offer wasn't a mile away from its private value.

I think older stock will dry up myself keeping prices up.
No way you ever going to see 997.2 GT3 at £80k

We are at the peak of petrol NA cars, it’s down hill from here imo.

New cars are pretty dull, you cannot buy a 997.2 GTS or even a 997.2 S now in a nice spec with sub 30k miles, none for sale and you have to be quick when they do come up.

The issue is now for a fun car, the air cooled has priced a lot of people out the market with prices where they are, so the next best thing after that is early gt stuff , hence we are seeing 1999 GT3 cs at £80k now

I took a bet my 987.2 Spyder would go up from people here and it did, I would bet again it will go up another £20k in 5 years, it’s under valued for what it is with the numbers built vs other cars at £100k

One could say why is a 997.2 GT3 so cheap when a 964 RS is £220k plus rhd.
So if you don’t have £200k you buy the next in line

A 1999 GT3 cs at £80k then looks very cheap and could be the next £250k car.

E30 m3 evo have doubled in 12 months !
I’m not to sure, we haven’t seen any form of drop on these as of yet.

This one is the lowest price SOR car at the moment, we aren’t a million miles away from 80k once you take into consideration of the dealer margin.

https://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/...

Do you think the market is going to remain and people will be happy to keep paying £220k for a 964 rs now they are not going up in price every month?

GT4RS

1,411 posts

135 months

Sunday 20th January
quotequote all
Here's another 2 examples of how unrealistic pricing is at the moment.

Car 1 997 gt3 Gen 2 CS for sale at an OPC, which is most likely there stock and will come with a years manufactures warranty for £94,935

https://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/...

Car 2997 gt3 Gen 2 CS for sale at an independent, which is most likley on SOR at £112,500

https://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/...

That's one hell of a difference in price IMO and there's also two other CS cars which are up for close to 120k, the one has been up forever.

I personally think this spread in the current prices is due to unrealistic SOR expectations, the dealer can basically afford to list it at what ever the seller thinks its worth. If it sells the seller needs to cover the costs of any work which is required and any drop in price if an offer is made, which ever way the dealer still takes his 5K SOR commission.

Another thing to remember now the market is changing is how much finance is against some of these cars on SOR, you could be shocked on the level of borrowing there is against them. I certainly was when I asked if a certain car had finance on it, they would of been lucky to get the trade bid to clear the finance!

Safest bet is the new 718 GT4 to your spec IMO, if i like the look of it and it comes with either a 3.8 NA or 4.0 NA I will ask if I can order one at the time and move on one of my other cars. I've got a feeling it will end up being the last NA Porsche GT car.

Porsche911R

16,242 posts

203 months

Sunday 20th January
quotequote all
GT4RS said:
Here's another 2 examples of how unrealistic pricing is at the moment.

Car 1 997 gt3 Gen 2 CS for sale at an OPC, which is most likely there stock and will come with a years manufactures warranty for £94,935

https://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/...

Car 2997 gt3 Gen 2 CS for sale at an independent, which is most likley on SOR at £112,500

https://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/...

That's one hell of a difference in price IMO and there's also two other CS cars which are up for close to 120k, the one has been up forever.

I personally think this spread in the current prices is due to unrealistic SOR expectations, the dealer can basically afford to list it at what ever the seller thinks its worth. If it sells the seller needs to cover the costs of any work which is required and any drop in price if an offer is made, which ever way the dealer still takes his 5K SOR commission.

Another thing to remember now the market is changing is how much finance is against some of these cars on SOR, you could be shocked on the level of borrowing there is against them. I certainly was when I asked if a certain car had finance on it, they would of been lucky to get the trade bid to clear the finance!

Safest bet is the new 718 GT4 to your spec IMO, if i like the look of it and it comes with either a 3.8 NA or 4.0 NA I will ask if I can order one at the time and move on one of my other cars. I've got a feeling it will end up being the last NA Porsche GT car.
Prices are all over the place yes, but that don’t mean they will be £80k ever.
The OPC cheaper price car has more miles and the Jzm, car is over priced as it stands today.

In my opinion I value a sub 20k miles 997.2 GT3 CS at £96k today.

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GT4RS

1,411 posts

135 months

Sunday 20th January
quotequote all
Porsche911R said:
GT4RS said:
Here's another 2 examples of how unrealistic pricing is at the moment.

Car 1 997 gt3 Gen 2 CS for sale at an OPC, which is most likely there stock and will come with a years manufactures warranty for £94,935

https://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/...

Car 2997 gt3 Gen 2 CS for sale at an independent, which is most likley on SOR at £112,500

https://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/...

That's one hell of a difference in price IMO and there's also two other CS cars which are up for close to 120k, the one has been up forever.

I personally think this spread in the current prices is due to unrealistic SOR expectations, the dealer can basically afford to list it at what ever the seller thinks its worth. If it sells the seller needs to cover the costs of any work which is required and any drop in price if an offer is made, which ever way the dealer still takes his 5K SOR commission.

Another thing to remember now the market is changing is how much finance is against some of these cars on SOR, you could be shocked on the level of borrowing there is against them. I certainly was when I asked if a certain car had finance on it, they would of been lucky to get the trade bid to clear the finance!

Safest bet is the new 718 GT4 to your spec IMO, if i like the look of it and it comes with either a 3.8 NA or 4.0 NA I will ask if I can order one at the time and move on one of my other cars. I've got a feeling it will end up being the last NA Porsche GT car.
Prices are all over the place yes, but that don’t mean they will be £80k ever.
The OPC cheaper price car has more miles and the Jzm, car is over priced as it stands today.

In my opinion I value a sub 20k miles 997.2 GT3 CS at £96k today.
Sorry when I said 80k for a 997.2 gt3 I meant sofas not club sport, as you say club sport always seems to command a little more.

If you value a sub 20k 997.2 gt3 club sport at £96k that makes two of them overpriced by £24k!

Good low mileage Sofa 997 gt3.2 will be in the £80k mark in the next 6 months imo if they don’t start selling, can’t see good ones dropping much from there mind. The two ste sofa cars at Jzm are crazy pricing, JZM will have to start selling other brands to keep the sakes coming through the door IMO.

DappaD

21 posts

62 months

Monday 21st January
quotequote all
I think 997.2 club sports will go down to circa 80k in the not too distant future...and other GT products will also fall quite a bit below where they currently are.

997.2 club sport are already circa 82k in LHD market......and before someone comments on that being a different market, go check a few examples similar spec/mileage cars such as 997.1 Carrera S (U.K) vs German LHD.......similar price, go check the next level up, 997.2 GTS (u.k) vs German LHD.......similar price, maybe slightly more expensive in Germany.

To show how crazy and overpriced GT3’s are here in the U.K, here is a great example.

On mobile.de there is a Black 997.1 GT3 club sport(LHD) advertised for €79990/£70574, where as EXACTLY the same car is currently advertised in the u.k for £8500 more at £79000.

Back in October this car was advertised at £69990, then dropped to £65990 in November.....then as it still hadn’t sold, the next logic step in December was.......to increase the price to £79000....To me this just highlights the overinflated prices here.

To me we are long overdue a correction here in the U.k on GT3’s and on current prices it looks like it’s at least circa 10k across all 997/991 GT3.
If sellers are serious about selling, prices need to drop back into line to at least those in Europe......only then do I see the numbers start to drop in line with cars coming to market

The ‘Track Season’ price adjustment didn’t happen last year (many of those vehicles are still for sale) and I don’t see it happening this year.

We have had the hi-tide regarding prices and I think there are already a few investors/chancers that have already been bitten regarding what they thought they can make on a 2nd hand GT product.

The sooner the correction comes, the sooner those enthusiasts currently priced out the market will be able to buy their new to them GT3 to drive as intended, as opposed to keeping them in garages trying to make money on them, which I think a lot of current owners have bought them for.

cmoose

43,577 posts

167 months

Monday 21st January
quotequote all
I think the dealer v private thing hinges on your ability and propensity to identify a good car.

The argument in favour of the very best dealers is that they will do that for you. Of course, the frustration there is that if they really are identifying the best cars, they very likely are not spending much if any money on prep, since they will only be buying really good cars that do not need much! So youre just paying for the identification services.

Personally, I am not wild about paying for that, and yet I am realistic enough to know that for a lot of potential issues, you may not be able to truly rule them out before you buy the bloody thing and having some theoretical comeback is appealing. I think it can be a bit of an illusion at times.

But overall, I would rate a private car with an ongoing Porsche warranty as the best value by far. Cannot see much value in a dealer car over a private car with a Porsche warranty.

IMI A

6,417 posts

139 months

Monday 21st January
quotequote all
RC1 said:
i've never bought from a dealer in 20 years and value my time but not convinced that makes me foolish
I'm not saying you are foolish mate its just a saying and same thing can happen with dealers its just more likely private in my experience anyway. You should have seen my face travelling up to a dealer in Stirlingshire. They were selling 1989 Turbo LE for £75k with 28k miles in 2013. Assured no accident car and when i turned up obvious it had taken a heavy knock on near side with a terrible repair. Day wasted and thats with a dealer who advertises lots of Porsches and other very expensive classics on this forum.

Porsche911R

16,242 posts

203 months

Monday 21st January
quotequote all
DappaD said:
I think 997.2 club sports will go down to circa 80k in the not too distant future...and other GT products will also fall quite a bit below where they currently are.

997.2 club sport are already circa 82k in LHD market......and before someone comments on that being a different market, go check a few examples similar spec/mileage cars such as 997.1 Carrera S (U.K) vs German LHD.......similar price, go check the next level up, 997.2 GTS (u.k) vs German LHD.......similar price, maybe slightly more expensive in Germany.

To show how crazy and overpriced GT3’s are here in the U.K, here is a great example.

On mobile.de there is a Black 997.1 GT3 club sport(LHD) advertised for €79990/£70574, where as EXACTLY the same car is currently advertised in the u.k for £8500 more at £79000.
I hope we catch up with Germany, 987.2 Spyder prices are way more there :-) euro 80k vs £50k here.

Cayman R also £75k in Germany.


RC1

3,547 posts

157 months

Monday 21st January
quotequote all
i had the pleasure of being hosted by OPC glasgow on friday as i was there for business anyway. i was having a poke around their gt silver metallic 997.1 gt3 and it was the tightest example i have driven of 4 in recent months. flawless history and no over revs at all. it was almost like new inside.

i was actually quite surprised at the high standard of prep even down to small things like light clusters etc and undersides of sills. what you dont see on the ads is the spend that they throw at the car to bring it up to scratch and in many cases i expect they spend on items that many others wouldnt simply because the cost to them of retailing a car that is later found not to have satisfied their standards is probably a lot higher than a few basis points of margin

i really enjoyed my first ever opc experience to the point that i am entertaining spending the extra to get an opc supplied car


RC1

3,547 posts

157 months

Monday 21st January
quotequote all
RC1 said:
for those interested, there is a white CS about to hit PH privately for about 85
ad now live for 91.5. ive spoken to him previously and he's a top guy and the inspection report is very positive. just cant do white and cant do 90 for a .1 gt3

Porsche911R

16,242 posts

203 months

Monday 21st January
quotequote all
RC1 said:
ad now live for 91.5. ive spoken to him previously and he's a top guy and the inspection report is very positive. just cant do white and cant do 90 for a .1 gt3
He don't want to sell it then lol, that's cloud cookoo pricing for a car with 30k miles.

Cameron Sport Cars blue one looks great, at £75k I would buy that, but not at £90k also.

997.1 look a tad over priced atm.

Kettmark

271 posts

91 months

Monday 21st January
quotequote all
You beat me to it ^
Why advertise a private car more expensively than a dealer car which has sat around unsold for months on end?
Waste of £11.99 on the ad & peoples time looking at the ad. Obviously doesn't want to sell the car.

D.no

272 posts

150 months

Monday 21st January
quotequote all
RC1 said:
i had the pleasure of being hosted by OPC glasgow on friday as i was there for business anyway. i was having a poke around their gt silver metallic 997.1 gt3 and it was the tightest example i have driven of 4 in recent months. flawless history and no over revs at all. it was almost like new inside.

i was actually quite surprised at the high standard of prep even down to small things like light clusters etc and undersides of sills. what you dont see on the ads is the spend that they throw at the car to bring it up to scratch and in many cases i expect they spend on items that many others wouldnt simply because the cost to them of retailing a car that is later found not to have satisfied their standards is probably a lot higher than a few basis points of margin

i really enjoyed my first ever opc experience to the point that i am entertaining spending the extra to get an opc supplied car
Having undertaken a similar search journey to yours, I arrived at the same conclusion, (and have ended-up there a number of times previously), and have absolutely no regrets. When considered as a whole, OPC cars can make a lot of sense, depending on what you value.

Looks like a lovely car by the way, and I was seriously considering a flight up there myself.

Hope you're enjoying the search as much as I did. beer


Cunno

320 posts

95 months

Monday 21st January
quotequote all
Kettmark said:
You beat me to it ^
Why advertise a private car more expensively than a dealer car which has sat around unsold for months on end?
Waste of £11.99 on the ad & peoples time looking at the ad. Obviously doesn't want to sell the car.
Just may be the dealer car isn’t as good as the ad implies?

Digga

26,071 posts

221 months

Monday 21st January
quotequote all
Cunno said:
Kettmark said:
You beat me to it ^
Why advertise a private car more expensively than a dealer car which has sat around unsold for months on end?
Waste of £11.99 on the ad & peoples time looking at the ad. Obviously doesn't want to sell the car.
Just may be the dealer car isn’t as good as the ad implies?
^This.

FWIW, quite a lot of GT cars sell before ever being advertised. A decent car will often go to 'friends of friends' (perhaps with a PPI) without ever going onto a dealer's stock list, let alone showroom.

Slippydiff

10,090 posts

161 months

Monday 21st January
quotequote all
Porsche911R said:
I hope we catch up with Germany, 987.2 Spyder prices are way more there :-) euro 80k vs £50k here.

Cayman R also £75k in Germany.
A quick look on mobile.de shows THE most expensive 8k miles CR at Euro 71,000, which I make £62.5k ....


Edited by Slippydiff on Monday 21st January 13:14

cmoose

43,577 posts

167 months

Monday 21st January
quotequote all
Kettmark said:
You beat me to it ^
Why advertise a private car more expensively than a dealer car which has sat around unsold for months on end?
Waste of £11.99 on the ad & peoples time looking at the ad. Obviously doesn't want to sell the car.
In my experience, most people over value their cars in a private sale, at all points of the market. Autotrader is rammed with private cars up for dealer money.

cmoose

43,577 posts

167 months

Monday 21st January
quotequote all
Slippydiff said:
A quick look on mobile.de shows THE most expensive 8k miles CR at Euro 71,000, which I make £62.5k ....
Less of the facts please, we are trying to deal with biased, hyperbolic fantasy.