Looking to buy the best 355 Manual - Parts / History Concern

Looking to buy the best 355 Manual - Parts / History Concern

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Discussion

wyldstalyns

62 posts

24 months

Saturday 27th June
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jayemm89 said:
As a point of curiosity, is there a reason why you are so keen on acquiring a low mileage car?

It just seems odd to me to be looking for a 25 year old car, with four-digit mileage, then being surprised that it may have been laid up for quite some time?

I recently helped someone source a Dino, the tattiest of which is worth far more than any 355, and they almost all had huge gaps in the paperwork or history, etc etc......

Most people I know who have 355s or 360s often put so little mileage on them the car may not even see the light of day for 3-5 years - I'd personally be more interested in seeing one large recent bill for a big overhaul.

It's a shame the 355 is not included under Ferrari's "Premium" program, because it seems designed to address many of the issues you're talking about.
Very much agree with this.

When I bought mine the deciding factor was finding one where all the inevitable failures had already been addressed. A Trigger’s Broom if you like. The prior owner had just shelled out 5k to redo all the wheels, which speaks volumes.

That means a good amount of miles (mine was bought at 40k ish), and a history of having been driven a lot *recently*. It had a couple of missed services like 10 years ago, but seriously if it’s been used a lot since then and has a long unbroken string of them after that point then who cares?

The mileage situation with 355s kind of sickens me - firstly it’s clearly largely nonsense, as cars with over 25k miles seem rarer than those under. Second, as a consequence cars (like mine) that threaten to go over 50k get their values destroyed. This means that clocking begets clocking and the whole market essentially gets frozen in time. It’s madness.

Unless you want a genuine museum piece (fair enough) recent regular miles is the best indicator of future reliability.

jtremlett

859 posts

177 months

Sunday 28th June
quotequote all
wyldstalyns said:
jayemm89 said:
As a point of curiosity, is there a reason why you are so keen on acquiring a low mileage car?

It just seems odd to me to be looking for a 25 year old car, with four-digit mileage, then being surprised that it may have been laid up for quite some time?

I recently helped someone source a Dino, the tattiest of which is worth far more than any 355, and they almost all had huge gaps in the paperwork or history, etc etc......

Most people I know who have 355s or 360s often put so little mileage on them the car may not even see the light of day for 3-5 years - I'd personally be more interested in seeing one large recent bill for a big overhaul.

It's a shame the 355 is not included under Ferrari's "Premium" program, because it seems designed to address many of the issues you're talking about.
Very much agree with this.

When I bought mine the deciding factor was finding one where all the inevitable failures had already been addressed. A Trigger’s Broom if you like. The prior owner had just shelled out 5k to redo all the wheels, which speaks volumes.

That means a good amount of miles (mine was bought at 40k ish), and a history of having been driven a lot *recently*. It had a couple of missed services like 10 years ago, but seriously if it’s been used a lot since then and has a long unbroken string of them after that point then who cares?

The mileage situation with 355s kind of sickens me - firstly it’s clearly largely nonsense, as cars with over 25k miles seem rarer than those under. Second, as a consequence cars (like mine) that threaten to go over 50k get their values destroyed. This means that clocking begets clocking and the whole market essentially gets frozen in time. It’s madness.

Unless you want a genuine museum piece (fair enough) recent regular miles is the best indicator of future reliability.
By way of (my) amusement, a little statistical information to add to this:

Considering right hand F355 Berlinettas only (having picked a random F355 variant), I have the mileage from MOT data for 304 cars, not having attempted to filter out whether they are currently taxed or SORNed or not.

Of those 304:
1 shows a total of less than 1000 miles
3 show a total of more than 1000 but less than 5000
13 - 5k to 10k
43 - 10k to 20k
61 - 20k to 30k
82 - 30k to 40k
48 - 40k to 50k
28 - 50k to 60k
18 - 60k to 70k
7 - >70k

None of these cars has yet recorded 100k miles at an MOT. The highest mileage recorded is 95,677.

Then, for those for which I have an MOT mileage in both 2018 and 2019:
22% travelled less than 100 miles between 2018 and 2019 MOTs
64% 100 to 1000
12% 1000 to 2000
2% >3000

johnnyreggae

2,448 posts

115 months

Sunday 28th June
quotequote all
And the award for best use of time during lockdown goes to........

Some entrants learned foreign languages some baked cakes some helped their neighbours some repeatedly cleaned their cars

And this is wonderful & fascinating - many many thanks


Raygun

3,402 posts

75 months

Sunday 28th June
quotequote all
jayemm89 said:
As a point of curiosity, is there a reason why you are so keen on acquiring a low mileage car?

It just seems odd to me to be looking for a 25 year old car, with four-digit mileage, then being surprised that it may have been laid up for quite some time?

I recently helped someone source a Dino, the tattiest of which is worth far more than any 355, and they almost all had huge gaps in the paperwork or history, etc etc......

Most people I know who have 355s or 360s often put so little mileage on them the car may not even see the light of day for 3-5 years - I'd personally be more interested in seeing one large recent bill for a big overhaul.

It's a shame the 355 is not included under Ferrari's "Premium" program, because it seems designed to address many of the issues you're talking about.
Regarding the Dino and any other classic car from back in time mileage and service book stamps are an irrelevance most of the time, the price reflects on the condition of the car quite rightly, for some reason latter day classics a lot of the time are bought as ornaments not to be used, 'leggy' to me is a tall woman not a Ferrari that's travelled over 20,000 miles.

FezSpider

590 posts

187 months

Sunday 28th June
quotequote all
The internet causes a lot of problems in terms of 355 ownership.


Cactussed

5,204 posts

168 months

I think mine is at 60k+ miles. I was doing well on the 5-6k pa target but then wife, kids, work and house renovation got in the way. God willing, I'll take it to well over 100k during my tenure.

With the real chance of becoming seriously ill or worse, I want to enjoy my time on this earth, and that means piling on the miles at 8500 rpm. Values be damned.

Bispal

673 posts

106 months

The fact that the speedo can be easily disconnected on Ferrari's that age would lead me to be suspect of any F355 that has not covered a decent number of miles per year unless it has a full dealer history, with no gaps. Look at the mileage of modern supercars under 10 years old to compare. Almost all 10 year old 458's have 20-30k miles on the clock. so 2-3k miles per year and I think that's spot on for a car like this for most users. That would put a 1998 F355 at 55k miles, again about right. I did 5k miles in my F355 in 18 months. Not a single F355 on AT has 55k miles or over on the cloc, the highest is 48k miles . 75% have the same number of miles as a 10 year old 458...???

jayemm89

2,712 posts

85 months

Bispal said:
The fact that the speedo can be easily disconnected on Ferrari's that age would lead me to be suspect of any F355 that has not covered a decent number of miles per year unless it has a full dealer history, with no gaps. Look at the mileage of modern supercars under 10 years old to compare. Almost all 10 year old 458's have 20-30k miles on the clock. so 2-3k miles per year and I think that's spot on for a car like this for most users. That would put a 1998 F355 at 55k miles, again about right. I did 5k miles in my F355 in 18 months. Not a single F355 on AT has 55k miles or over on the cloc, the highest is 48k miles . 75% have the same number of miles as a 10 year old 458...???
Precisely this. I've known more than one car of that age to have the speedo or cable just break (and who is to say how quickly it got fixed), and like you say for unscrupulous types there are ways of easily disconnecting the thing on purpose.

I believe from 360 onwards with the F1 box certainly it got harder to clock the things as the gearbox could tell on you.

So many issues on these cars also seem time related, not age - with lack of use often seeming to do just as much damage, if not more, than regular usage

LotusOmega375D

4,765 posts

108 months

Those above 2018-2019 mileage stats are amazing if correct. 86% of MOT’d 355s were driven less than 1000 miles during those 12 months. That was before lockdown. It really makes 355 ownership a comparatively expensive hobby per mile, when you factor in the annual servicing, insurance and road tax costs. That’s before any depreciation hit.

CV-19 might release a few of these garage queens back onto the market to less wealthy enthusiast owners, now that they are no longer the investments some owners thought they would be.

jtremlett

859 posts

177 months

jayemm89 said:
Bispal said:
The fact that the speedo can be easily disconnected on Ferrari's that age would lead me to be suspect of any F355 that has not covered a decent number of miles per year unless it has a full dealer history, with no gaps. Look at the mileage of modern supercars under 10 years old to compare. Almost all 10 year old 458's have 20-30k miles on the clock. so 2-3k miles per year and I think that's spot on for a car like this for most users. That would put a 1998 F355 at 55k miles, again about right. I did 5k miles in my F355 in 18 months. Not a single F355 on AT has 55k miles or over on the cloc, the highest is 48k miles . 75% have the same number of miles as a 10 year old 458...???
Precisely this. I've known more than one car of that age to have the speedo or cable just break (and who is to say how quickly it got fixed), and like you say for unscrupulous types there are ways of easily disconnecting the thing on purpose.

I believe from 360 onwards with the F1 box certainly it got harder to clock the things as the gearbox could tell on you.

So many issues on these cars also seem time related, not age - with lack of use often seeming to do just as much damage, if not more, than regular usage
I doubt there are really loads of F355s zooming about with the speedo disconnected. No-one uses these cars as a daily driver. They come out on sunny weekends so I don't think it is all that hard to do relatively few miles.

Since 458s are mentioned, these are the comparable figures for miles between 2018 and 2019 MOTs for RHD 458 Italias:
6% <100
45% 100 to 1000
25% 1000 to 2000
12% 2000 to 3000
12% >3000

So more than half did fewer than 1000 miles in a year. Not an order of magnitude different to the F355 mileages especially taking into account that newer cars are generally more likely to be used more.

Bispal

673 posts

106 months

Owners don't seem to drive them much. I just checked my records I did 4,000 miles in mine in 18 months. Not counting servicing, tax, insurance and petrol I had £5000 of mechanical repairs and £4000 of depreciation which works out at £2.13 per mile. Add in petrol at £1,600 / 40p per mile at 15-18 mpg, servicing, and tax / insurance at £3,200 / 80p per mile and the total came to £3.23 per mile. That's based on 2,500 miles pa. Most owners doing 1k miles or less are going to be paying around £7.50 per mile. The conclusion I came to was it wasn't worth it. I Have owned 30 cars and only a 1985 M635 was more expensive but not by much at £2.50 excluding petrol / insurance / servicing. By comparison my McLaren 12C was £1.14 per mile and that includes the warranty and depreciation!

Bispal

673 posts

106 months

jtremlett said:
jayemm89 said:
Bispal said:
The fact that the speedo can be easily disconnected on Ferrari's that age would lead me to be suspect of any F355 that has not covered a decent number of miles per year unless it has a full dealer history, with no gaps. Look at the mileage of modern supercars under 10 years old to compare. Almost all 10 year old 458's have 20-30k miles on the clock. so 2-3k miles per year and I think that's spot on for a car like this for most users. That would put a 1998 F355 at 55k miles, again about right. I did 5k miles in my F355 in 18 months. Not a single F355 on AT has 55k miles or over on the cloc, the highest is 48k miles . 75% have the same number of miles as a 10 year old 458...???
Precisely this. I've known more than one car of that age to have the speedo or cable just break (and who is to say how quickly it got fixed), and like you say for unscrupulous types there are ways of easily disconnecting the thing on purpose.

I believe from 360 onwards with the F1 box certainly it got harder to clock the things as the gearbox could tell on you.

So many issues on these cars also seem time related, not age - with lack of use often seeming to do just as much damage, if not more, than regular usage
I doubt there are really loads of F355s zooming about with the speedo disconnected. No-one uses these cars as a daily driver. They come out on sunny weekends so I don't think it is all that hard to do relatively few miles.

Since 458s are mentioned, these are the comparable figures for miles between 2018 and 2019 MOTs for RHD 458 Italias:
6% <100
45% 100 to 1000
25% 1000 to 2000
12% 2000 to 3000
12% >3000

So more than half did fewer than 1000 miles in a year. Not an order of magnitude different to the F355 mileages especially taking into account that newer cars are generally more likely to be used more.
Cars do more miles when they are new in the 1st 5 years. It's these years that are missing from the F355 and also you need to look at the total mileage of 458's on PH not the 18/19 figures which is when the cars were appreciating and owners not using them. My own cousin did 100 miles in his 458 last year as he 'doesn't want the vale to be impacted'. Whats the point?





jtremlett

859 posts

177 months

Bispal said:
Cars do more miles when they are new in the 1st 5 years. It's these years that are missing from the F355 and also you need to look at the total mileage of 458's on PH not the 18/19 figures which is when the cars were appreciating and owners not using them. My own cousin did 100 miles in his 458 last year as he 'doesn't want the vale to be impacted'. Whats the point?
I have the total miles as well but I didn't want to digress too much on a topic that is supposed to be about F355s. The point was just to show that there isn't a massively different pattern across different models.

wyldstalyns

62 posts

24 months

The 355 does seem to cause an unusual amount of angst- more than any other car perhaps?

If it’s not the extreme sensitivity to mileage, it’s the fear of mythical service bills. How many people out there still believe that the engine out service costs around £10k? Quite a few I imagine. Then there’s the reliability. It’s not reliable, that’s for sure- but is it so out of whack with the norm for other pre 2000 supercars?

Makes you wonder how much they’d be worth if it wasn’t for all this drama.

Or who knows... perhaps it just adds to the allure...

Are there any other models out there with so many demons?

baptist

628 posts

211 months

I drove mine a lot, it caused anguish for other owners, but I had very few problems. I just don't understand this obsession with mileage, it makes the cars utterly pointless to own.
If you are in constant turmoil about putting miles on it, the car owns you.


willy wombat

446 posts

103 months

It will be interesting to see what mileages look like in this most unusual year. I have only kept the Portofino taxed and during lockdown it was sometimes used fir essential shopping but the other two are just sitting in their garage, SORN’d. I will look at taxing them in July but given the cancellation of the events that these sort of cars are often used to attend, I suspect mileages will be unusually low. JT - you are on notice to provide the data please.

jayemm89

2,712 posts

85 months

Even a recent Doug DeMuro video cited a cam belt change as $10,000 - even at let's say £5,000 I would call that a rip off (for a basic belt major service) - either Americans LOVE getting ripped off, or they love drama.

classiccarwill

1 posts

1 month

Tuesday
quotequote all
I know of a 1-owner car for sale that would tick all of your boxes. DM me for details.

Cheers, Will

wyldstalyns

62 posts

24 months

Wednesday
quotequote all
jayemm89 said:
Even a recent Doug DeMuro video cited a cam belt change as $10,000 - even at let's say £5,000 I would call that a rip off (for a basic belt major service) - either Americans LOVE getting ripped off, or they love drama.
I’m a big Doug DeMuro fan, but he’s undoubtedly done more to damage the reputation of the 355 than any other individual.

In addition to the video you mention, he also has one of the top ranking articles about the car on Google, titled “Here’s why you should never buy a Ferrari F355”.

In it he effectively says you have to drop 20k purely to protect against common issues that lead to inevitable engine rebuilds (headers etc), as well as quoting the 10k service.

Essentially the implication is that every car is going to cost you 5 figures per year in maintenance problems.

I’m sure it happens, but it isn’t the norm!


LotusOmega375D

4,765 posts

108 months

Wednesday
quotequote all
From what I gather, US servicing costs for exotic cars at independents seem to be far, far higher than what we are used to in the UK. The proprietors of such “shops” must be very wealthy individuals.