458 Battery how long off the tender

458 Battery how long off the tender

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chippy348

Original Poster:

492 posts

114 months

Wednesday 16th June
quotequote all
Bit of a long story

Had my 458 coming up to a year, it was supposed to have new genuine Battery when i took delivery.
Its never sounded quite up to it on 1st start up, its always been on the Ferrari tender.

Any who, December time it was cold, as i said always on the tender, tried to start it and it struggled and came up with "electrical fault go to dealer"

It was due a service so mentioned it, they said all ok, off the record dont use the Ferrari charger, so swapped to a much beefier version, if i m honest it still sounds the same when you start it.

Fast forward to today, the last time i used it was 10 days ago and on purpose i did not plug it back in, again i had the same issue as in December it only just started and flashed up the same "go to dealer" used the car just fine and is now tucked up plugged back in.

My questions are this

1: How long can you leave it off the tender ?
2: Looking at a replacement, anyone got any recommendation

As a side note, in December i did some tests, battery voltage 12.50V dropping to 11.20V on cranking.

oharedm

128 posts

236 months

Wednesday 16th June
quotequote all
I have done a fair amount of reading on this topic. I posted tech note on FerrariChat
https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/tech-rev...

I have read estimates of shutdown currents of 40 – 75 mA based on whether the car alarm is set or not. Depending on the state of your battery you many only have days before the voltage drops below 11.5V after which you will have issues.


willy wombat

576 posts

115 months

Thursday 17th June
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This is a very unscientific reply. I’ve had my 458 from new in 2013 and know quite a few 458 owners. Two of these have had various electrical issues, in both cases being traced to a battery problem. In one case the battery was old (8 or 9 years), in the other the battery was supposedly pretty new. In both cases changing the battery solved the problems. I have never heard of anyone having a problem with the Ferrari supplied charger as long as the battery is ok. The only other suggestion I have is that my car is fitted with the “stop start” system (the HELE system as Ferrari call it) and I seem to recall that cars fitted with that system may have been provided with a higher rated battery, which could be worth looking into. Re time off the charger - I always plug the charger in unless I’m sure I will be using the car again the next day. My view is why risk a battery problem when it’s so easy to plug in the charger. The longest I ever left it off the charger without driving it was about a week when it was transported to Sicily for a Ferrari event and that didn’t cause any problem. In summary, I think you might be barking up the wrong tree blaming the charger and should consider changing the battery instead.

oharedm

128 posts

236 months

Thursday 17th June
quotequote all
458's seem really sensitive to voltage drops on cranking, there are 100's of post on this topic online. It triggers all sorts of random errors, I have had I as well.

The high performance OEM AGM battery fitment is the Odyssey PC1220F (pn 7000253). I have HELE on the 488 and that what is fitted. They are silly money from Ferrari. You can get them online, just delete the F in the code. If I had my 458 now I would fit be fitting an Antigravity AG-H6-60-RS and be done with it. You will also need the CTEK lithium specific charger.

Ferrari have a new style charger/maintainer (small black box), I can find no specifications for it. The older red branded CTEK Ferrari ones do not offer as much charging current as an MXS 5.0 or MXS 7.0. So again for the sake of £100 I alway run on the good CTEK


Order66

6,553 posts

216 months

Thursday 17th June
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I'm with Mr Wombat here. My car (2012) still has the original battery and is using the original Ferrari charger. It's left on charge permanently when not in use and never had a real problem. Once after a long cold winter I did get the "electrical fault, go to dealer" flash up, however just ignored it as knew it was just a complaint of low voltage, let it run a few mins, shut down, restarted and went away.

I've since figured that when starting if you turn the key then give it 10s for all the electrics to "settle down" before pushing the start button it starts better - presume it lets all the systems finish starting up when they might be drawing extra current.

willy wombat

576 posts

115 months

Thursday 17th June
quotequote all
To confirm Order66's point, when I first got the car the dealer advised me to turn on the ignition and then wait a few seconds to let the electrics settle down - I wait until the fuel gauge bars all fill in - and then start the car.

TB303

1,008 posts

161 months

Thursday 17th June
quotequote all
oharedm said:
If I had my 458 now I would fit be fitting an Antigravity AG-H6-60-RS and be done with it. You will also need the CTEK lithium specific charger.
How long would a 458 last off tender with that battery do you know? Seems like a neat solution for the 458 if it does what it says it does.

Order66

6,553 posts

216 months

Thursday 17th June
quotequote all
TB303 said:
How long would a 458 last off tender with that battery do you know? Seems like a neat solution for the 458 if it does what it says it does.
The US forums/groups rave about the antigravity batteries. I'm a bit skeptical as most of these guys don't lay-up their cars for winter, so I guess will be getting used every few weeks anyway.

Certainly I think the larger capacity will extend the time off-charge considerably, possibly even weeks longer, but at some point if you leave it long enough all batteries go flat given the persistent drain a modern ferrari seems to suffer with. Even with the reserve jump start function, the car will completely lose power and from what I understand if this happens it can be a big issue, requiring the dealer to be able to get the car restarted again.


Durzel

10,190 posts

135 months

Thursday 17th June
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Order66 said:
I've since figured that when starting if you turn the key then give it 10s for all the electrics to "settle down" before pushing the start button it starts better - presume it lets all the systems finish starting up when they might be drawing extra current.
+1

I had this advice the first (and only) time it happened to me. Dealer told me "yes they tend to do that sir".

Many portentous warnings and failures, drive up the road, stop, restart and they're all gone. I chalked it up as one of those Italian character things, though I'd struggle to call it a charm.

blueSL

379 posts

193 months

Thursday 17th June
quotequote all
If you don’t want to cannibalise the magnetic connector, you can find them on eBay which then connect to the CTEK charger. I use the 10A version. Even the weediest one will keep the battery topped up given time. As a rule, I would say 2 weeks is the absolute maximum to leave the car without a charger connected. The electronics these days is better and sleeps more deeply but the Ferrari is more fussy than a current 911, for example.

red_slr

12,911 posts

156 months

Friday 18th June
quotequote all
The issue with the likes of Ferrari is they have such complex electrical systems there is a lot of draw once the ignition is on.

There are a lot of ECUs, motors, pumps, solenoids etc that all self check and do their thing for a few seconds when you go to P2.

As such the electrical system will see a voltage drop in the first few seconds then it will rebound so the advice above of turn on and wait 10-15 seconds is exactly what I would advise too.

The older the battery the worse this will be as the battery is going to have less capacity over time and will take longer to bounce back.

As for how long it should last. Well most cars will be easily able to last 2,3,4 weeks. But Ferrari is known for not being the best in this regard and personally unless it was an emergency the longest I would leave it off a trickle charger would be a week.

I had an RS6 and this exact same problem cropped up, it would last a week or so maybe 10 days at a push. My 911 was exactly the same, 2 weeks is tops. Porsche disable the key blipper after 14 days IIRC to prevent broken windows.

My 355 is on trickle all the time on a ctek. I have had the car coming up for 6 years (how!) and I am planning to replace the battery this year for no reason other than IME once you get beyond 5-6 years their performance does start to drop off. I dont know when it was fitted so its 6+.

I am going to look at an AG battery I think although I dont like the fact (AFAIK) they cut power once the voltage drops below a certain level which means an ECU relearn on my car.

davek_964

7,625 posts

142 months

Friday 18th June
quotequote all
red_slr said:
My 911 was exactly the same, 2 weeks is tops. Porsche disable the key blipper after 14 days IIRC to prevent broken windows.
It might vary by model but my 996 turbo disabled the remote feature after 5 days, because the car goes into "deep" sleep then.

Durzel

10,190 posts

135 months

Friday 18th June
quotequote all
I don't know if a Ferrari has anything particularly remarkable electronics wise above and beyond any other car of a similar age. What does seem to be the case however is that the ECU just sts a brick whenever it detects a voltage transient - e.g. with cranking - and immediately fears the worst, and tells the customer that the world is ending. It also doesn't seem to like the ignition button being pressed while its initialising (per Order66's point above that waiting a few seconds can help). All of that imo are software problems.

I say that because the first and only time it happened with mine - that day I had a heart attack - it had been off the tender for a week or so. I called the dealer immediately after going 200 metres up the road and he pretty much said "yeah they're a bit fussy, turn it off and back on again". I did that and all the errors disappeared and it was like it had never happened.

Your general point about cars being more reliant on 12v now than before is certainly valid though.

red_slr

12,911 posts

156 months

Friday 18th June
quotequote all
davek_964 said:
red_slr said:
My 911 was exactly the same, 2 weeks is tops. Porsche disable the key blipper after 14 days IIRC to prevent broken windows.
It might vary by model but my 996 turbo disabled the remote feature after 5 days, because the car goes into "deep" sleep then.
Might have been 5 days cant remember it was a 997 and it was 16 years ago my memory not as good as it was LOL

chippy348

Original Poster:

492 posts

114 months

Tuesday 22nd June
quotequote all
oharedm said:
I have done a fair amount of reading on this topic. I posted tech note on FerrariChat
https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/tech-rev...

I have read estimates of shutdown currents of 40 – 75 mA based on whether the car alarm is set or not. Depending on the state of your battery you many only have days before the voltage drops below 11.5V after which you will have issues.
Thanks for this, a good read

DumDum

144 posts

123 months

Friday 25th June
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I've left mine 9 days and was still fine.

chippy348

Original Poster:

492 posts

114 months

Wednesday 7th July
quotequote all
Just to bring this back up, i have been letting the car settle with the ignition on before hitting start, it has improved the "lazy starting" feel

Also been keeping it on the charger all the time.

mrpseudonym

234 posts

83 months

Wednesday 14th July
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I just installed a bluetooth monitor so I can monitor battery health from my phone outside the car. A nice companion to the ctek/ferrari tender. There are a few different makes around. Choose the one that does charging and cranking tests automatically…

Edited by mrpseudonym on Wednesday 14th July 23:03