430+612=12?

430+612=12?

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Discussion

thecook101

Original Poster:

630 posts

59 months

Tuesday 13th August
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Contemplating selling both my F430 and 612 and buying an F12. Or not. Don't know. Opinions sought please. Yes, I know it's a decision I need to make but imagine we are in a pub after a drive out and I'm asking your opinion. No I can't have them all :-)

F430 - have made it mine with many mods but can easily go back to stock. See details here https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&... Currently it's my go to car for boys tours and track days, and I don't worry about putting miles on it, effect on value, etc. Joy to drive, light, nimble, loud and love the rawness. Just over 30,000 miles on it.



612 - Used occasionally for longer trips with the wife, special events with friends, etc. It's quite a unique car being an ex-Clapton OTO that the factory dressed to Sessanta spec for him as a favour. Seriously underrated car IMO, all the Ferrari V12 goodness wrapped in gentlemen's clothes. Only 13,000 miles on it, which many will understand, is both a good and a bad thing.



F12 - I think the top of the modern Ferrari tree, V12 where it should be, gorgeous looks - a usable, proper Ferrari. Thing is, it won't (I don't think) cover the duties of the two I have, so is the ownership experience special enough that I won't be bothered? Is it time to tick those boxes and move on?

Edited by thecook101 on Tuesday 13th August 14:50

RT964

164 posts

22 months

Tuesday 13th August
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I love pub conversations like this - I was having one with a mate on Saturday after a 150 mile run, although our topic was Lambo vs Ferrari vs Mclaren.

Your 430 looks amazing, will have a read through the other thread later, however think your conclusion is correct in that the F12 won't cover the duties of both of your current cars. I'd be asking myself how often I use either car (and how many miles are involved) alongside how often you drive each of the cars "just because". Suspect the 430 wins, but only guessing.

Maybe you could also look outside the Ferrari family, maybe at a 720s for example, and drive a few other things alongside an F12 to help make the decision.

thecook101

Original Poster:

630 posts

59 months

Tuesday 13th August
quotequote all
You're right the 430 is generally the car that I take when I've some time to go for an A to A drive, but I think that's largely because I keep the cars one above the other on a four post lift with the 430 below and ready to go. When I do get the 612 down it reminds me of how much I love that v12. Have a listen to this - the mic is crappy but you get the idea https://youtu.be/XVDwCHkStjA

I love a naturally aspirated V12 which is why I'm looking at the F12. The 812 is out of my reach, and I think I prefer the styling of the F12 although that could just be wallet-preservation kicking in. Nothing against the 720 or any other marque and I should go and drive them, I just always find myself lowering the windows when I drive so that I can hear the full engine note and I'm worried that a turbo'd setup won't be the same.

The F12 brings all that v12 goodness with it, but will I be able to do the trips to Wales and the Highlands in it, and what about tracking it - I don't think I have ever seen one on track. Does anyone track an F12?

ANOpax

72 posts

110 months

Tuesday 13th August
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FF will cover the duties of the 612 while getting you close to the F12 in terms of performance, looks and everyday usability.

Regarding the track, people do track the F12 I believe but it’s bigger and heavier than your 430. The FF is bigger and heavier again than the F12 and not really a track car. If you could do without track days, the FF has you covered. If not, stick with what you’ve got.

thecook101

Original Poster:

630 posts

59 months

Tuesday 13th August
quotequote all
Yup, tracking the F12 is not really an option to be fair - just not what it's built for. My 430 tracks well as it's lighter and modified. I think if I'm going to switch to a more modern v12 then I'll have to keep dedicated track car - just something not as costly to buy or maintain as the 430. I'm doing a race season with an MX5 Mk1 this year but I'd like to replace that with something beefier - an old Beemer or Ford perhaps.

The FF is an interesting one. I didn't warm to it initially but yes, as a usable, reliable, modern v12 Ferrari it has a lot going for it. I only recently understood the 4RM 4 wheel drive layout driving off the front of the engine with a seperate 2 speed gearbox. Has this proved to be reliable, any issues emerging?

ANOpax

72 posts

110 months

Tuesday 13th August
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You’ve homed in on the FF’s Achilles heel. The 4RM has had its issues and the failure rate seems to be about 5% a year. It’s nothing to do with the clutch technology but the seals in the gearbox it seems. The front gearbox is called the PTU and if you have a warranty, Ferrari will fix it for you. If you don’t, it’s a £25-30k job to fix. If you risk adjust the cost of PTU and DCT gearbox failures, you’re better off self insuring rather than paying the annual ‘New Power’ warranty.




seawise

1,492 posts

150 months

Tuesday 13th August
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The F12 is a very special Ferrari, I loved mine and the 812 whilst a wonderful car isn't as pretty. but I rather like what you have already, the modified 430 and mint 612 sound like a great stable. Clearly an F12 will not be able to perform both roles that your current stable do, so I suspect you might regret the decision if you swap. Having said that, if you go racing and the 430 ends up idle gathering dust, then a swap to just 1 Ferrari would make sense (and an F12 is a great car for road trips, the odd spin to blast away cobwebs, take the misses out to dinner, etc - just won't work on the circuit as the consumables will be utterly ruinous due weight and 730hp burning thru a set of rears every 6 laps...).

Edited by seawise on Tuesday 13th August 17:17

67Dino

1,064 posts

49 months

Tuesday 13th August
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I’ve a more general perspective here, as I’ve had a few goes at consolidating to fewer cars in the past. End result: just find myself hankering after something less practical for weekend drives. I therefore predict that if you get an F12 (wonderful choice), you’ll be eyeing up something smaller to go with it within a year.

I think the trick is to go the other way, and replace the 430 with something dafter.

MDL111

3,666 posts

121 months

Tuesday 13th August
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ANOpax said:
You’ve homed in on the FF’s Achilles heel. The 4RM has had its issues and the failure rate seems to be about 5% a year. It’s nothing to do with the clutch technology but the seals in the gearbox it seems. The front gearbox is called the PTU and if you have a warranty, Ferrari will fix it for you. If you don’t, it’s a £25-30k job to fix. If you risk adjust the cost of PTU and DCT gearbox failures, you’re better off self insuring rather than paying the annual ‘New Power’ warranty.
I doubt Replacing the seal - which has been done twice on my DCT box - is a 25k job - maybe for a new replacement box. Having said that I have warranty because the car is just to complex to run without
So far 71k km and no material issues apart from the above seal issue

Re the question - I would not do it. My FF is my daily, and the 430 is for weekends/track days. The FF would not be fun on track and lunch it’s brakes (the F12 probably lunches brakes too given the higher speeds achievable and the not that much more insignificant weight). Drove an 812 on track and it was insanely fast on the straights
Also I think the 612 is aging really really well, so if I had one, I would not sell it

ANOpax

72 posts

110 months

Tuesday 13th August
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Regarding the seal - I was referring to the PTU, not the DCT. It seems the PTU is toast when it won’t retain its fluids...

MDL111

3,666 posts

121 months

Tuesday 13th August
quotequote all
ANOpax said:
Regarding the seal - I was referring to the PTU, not the DCT. It seems the PTU is toast when it won’t retain its fluids...
Fair enough but I have 71k on mine, so it does not seem like that big of an issue - no PTU issues so far - and I did a lot of 4wd driving during winter given I drive a lot on snow
Only one data point but mine seems to hold up well

hunter 66

2,759 posts

164 months

Tuesday 13th August
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Had a 612 and a have a 430 GT3 Evo ...... keep those two you have a great t combo

Ray_MV

31 posts

121 months

Tuesday 13th August
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I picked up an F12 about a month ago and have loved every one of the 1,500 miles I’ve done in that time!

It’s such an epic car with intoxicating power and beauty. I love the 812 too but the F12 is amazing value in comparison.



Taffy66

2,614 posts

46 months

Tuesday 13th August
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F12 great car but prone to unexpected oversteer when you least expect it..You already have a great combo which i would keep if i was you..I especially like your stunning 612 with its unique provenance. A keeper in my book.

MDL111

3,666 posts

121 months

Wednesday 14th August
quotequote all
Ray_MV said:
I picked up an F12 about a month ago and have loved every one of the 1,500 miles I’ve done in that time!

It’s such an epic car with intoxicating power and beauty. I love the 812 too but the F12 is amazing value in comparison.


That looks amazing - imo much prettier than the 812

thecook101

Original Poster:

630 posts

59 months

Wednesday 14th August
quotequote all
Stunning F12, great choice. Thanks for the input all. Pretty much mirrors my thoughts, and I have been pondering this for a few months. The two that I have work well for me, the 612 should really be a keeper, the F12 is a wonderful car but no car does everything so I probably shouldn't do a two for one.

So maybe a three for two as another option is to add my 911 (997 C4S manual) to the pot and shoot for an F12 plus a 911 GT3. Might be some man maths involved but certainly do-able, and I don't do much commuting so could use the GT3 as a daily. The niggling thought is that while the 612 is probably going to hold value, the F12 looks to have a bit to give away still - especially as more 812s start arriving.

I've also just this morning done 50 miles of back country roads in the rain in my C4S and it is just SUCH a wonderful car in all conditions. I like to do some of the work on my cars myself so I get attached to them.