720S Rejection
Discussion
carspath said:
davek-964 : Please do explain to me objectively and logically why you so happily and readily discount the possibility of there being a design fault .
Bearing in mind what the OP said , and he has been perfectly clear in what he has written , a design fault is not only a possibility , it seems to be the simplest and most likely explanation for the coolant leak .
Why have you yet again banged on about hose clips , when the OP has specifically said that the problem was caused by 2 pipes rubbing against each other and rupturing , and has specifically written that it was not caused by a loose hose ?
(A) OP has written : ''So update on this car, it’s not just a loose hose, apparently there are 2 hose pipes that have rubbed together and ruptured... looks to be an engine out job. Another few weeks gone by the looks of it ''
(B) davek_964 said:
'' One single instance of coolant hoses rubbing together, and now it's a 'significant design issue', could have been fuel lines etc etc? FFS.
It's more likely that the hose wasn't clipped in place properly. ''
Frankly , to any impartial party reading this thread , the issues of rejection , courtesy cars , delays , PCP payments , and poor service , will pale into insignificance compared to what would appear to some of us as the most likely explanation --- ie that a design fault led to the 2 hoses rubbing against each other , to the point of one or both hoses rupturing .
And yes , if the design principles used by the manufacturer caused 2 coolant hoses to rub against each other , the same design principles could / would also have been applied to other hoses within the car .... simple logic surely ?
And yes again , if it had been fuel hoses or brake hoses instead of coolant hoses , then the end result could have been much more serious ...... surely you agree ?
So davek-964 , please can you , having taken into account what the OP has written , give a logical reason for discounting a design fault out of hand ?
Writing ''FFS'' is all good and well , but it doesn't address the issue under discussion , and neither does talking about hose clips when the OP has specifically written that he has been told ( presumably by the McLaren dealer who examined the car ) that the coolant leak was not due to a loose hose .
It is incredible , that the really important issue , safety , seems to have been lost in the fog . The marque and model variant is irrelevant to this discussion , as it would be equally serious in any vehicle .
Keep in mind there was a rear end crash, before jumping to design fault, I would logically think it’s got something to do with the repair (no idea if that’s even possible). But a single Online documented incident of a hoses rubbing together - I wouldn’t jump to design fault. Bearing in mind what the OP said , and he has been perfectly clear in what he has written , a design fault is not only a possibility , it seems to be the simplest and most likely explanation for the coolant leak .
Why have you yet again banged on about hose clips , when the OP has specifically said that the problem was caused by 2 pipes rubbing against each other and rupturing , and has specifically written that it was not caused by a loose hose ?
(A) OP has written : ''So update on this car, it’s not just a loose hose, apparently there are 2 hose pipes that have rubbed together and ruptured... looks to be an engine out job. Another few weeks gone by the looks of it ''
(B) davek_964 said:
'' One single instance of coolant hoses rubbing together, and now it's a 'significant design issue', could have been fuel lines etc etc? FFS.
It's more likely that the hose wasn't clipped in place properly. ''
Frankly , to any impartial party reading this thread , the issues of rejection , courtesy cars , delays , PCP payments , and poor service , will pale into insignificance compared to what would appear to some of us as the most likely explanation --- ie that a design fault led to the 2 hoses rubbing against each other , to the point of one or both hoses rupturing .
And yes , if the design principles used by the manufacturer caused 2 coolant hoses to rub against each other , the same design principles could / would also have been applied to other hoses within the car .... simple logic surely ?
And yes again , if it had been fuel hoses or brake hoses instead of coolant hoses , then the end result could have been much more serious ...... surely you agree ?
So davek-964 , please can you , having taken into account what the OP has written , give a logical reason for discounting a design fault out of hand ?
Writing ''FFS'' is all good and well , but it doesn't address the issue under discussion , and neither does talking about hose clips when the OP has specifically written that he has been told ( presumably by the McLaren dealer who examined the car ) that the coolant leak was not due to a loose hose .
It is incredible , that the really important issue , safety , seems to have been lost in the fog . The marque and model variant is irrelevant to this discussion , as it would be equally serious in any vehicle .
Edited by carspath on Saturday 5th September 23:26
Carspath, as much as it pains me to reply to any of your posts, you are trying to create a discussion about it being a safety issue with having barely a crumb of information about what has happened.
The OP has posted that is what he has been told by his dealer, and points out he has no mechanical knowledge so he cannot confirm via his own eyes.
The car has had a rear impact after very few miles.
Who can discount that the impact may be the root cause of this and either damaged the hoses or bent a hose bracket that was unnoticed during the repair process and the dealer doesn't fancy putting his hands up?
Production of 720s have been going on since 2017; if it was a design flaw as mentioned by ronnie....It would of raised itself wayyyy before now especially on a new car with a handful of miles.
As I posted before, this is going to turn into 'one of those McLaren threads'
Remove the accident, the normal supply issues of repairing a bent supercar, a worldwide pandemic, you are then left with a coolant hose letting go.
Sucky for the OP, but as i posted before, all down to a run of unfortunate bad luck.
If the OP had pushed for a like for like courtesy car from the 3rd party insurers, all would of been good, and when the coolant hose failed I would then be amazed if a call to Woking would not of resulted in a 720 spider courtesy car as the coolant was a failure.
The OP has posted that is what he has been told by his dealer, and points out he has no mechanical knowledge so he cannot confirm via his own eyes.
The car has had a rear impact after very few miles.
Who can discount that the impact may be the root cause of this and either damaged the hoses or bent a hose bracket that was unnoticed during the repair process and the dealer doesn't fancy putting his hands up?
Production of 720s have been going on since 2017; if it was a design flaw as mentioned by ronnie....It would of raised itself wayyyy before now especially on a new car with a handful of miles.
As I posted before, this is going to turn into 'one of those McLaren threads'
Remove the accident, the normal supply issues of repairing a bent supercar, a worldwide pandemic, you are then left with a coolant hose letting go.
Sucky for the OP, but as i posted before, all down to a run of unfortunate bad luck.
If the OP had pushed for a like for like courtesy car from the 3rd party insurers, all would of been good, and when the coolant hose failed I would then be amazed if a call to Woking would not of resulted in a 720 spider courtesy car as the coolant was a failure.
rmaGL said:
Keep in mind there was a rear end crash, before jumping to design fault, I would logically think it’s got something to do with the repair (no idea if that’s even possible). But a single Online documented incident of a hoses rubbing together - I wouldn’t jump to design fault.
You beat me to it! 
650spider said:
and when the I would then be amazed if a call to Woking would not of resulted in a 720 spider courtesy car as the coolant was a failure.
This is the additional annoyance - they have 2 courtesies available (as told by client services) so I can get a Volvo or a BMW in the interim. Screaming '' troll '' from the rooftops , without substantiating that call , is such a cheap and unworthy way of stifling and suffocating debate and free speech .
I have previously called on davek-964 and MAC720S to explain themselves , and it therefore incumbent for me to do the same , so here goes :
1) I said that a design fault should be considered as a possibility , and indeed went further and said that it was the most likely possibility based on the facts that the OP had presented to this forum .
-davek-964 immediately discounted this possibility , but gave no considered reason to support this assertion ( and still hasn't) .
-MAC720S then rose up in support of davek-964 , but again has still not provided any considered reason for discounting a design fault as a possible cause for the coolant leak.
Neither of these two commentators have come up with a credible alternative explanation for the coolant leak , and from their previous postings , both would have done so immediately had they had a credible alternative explanation . ( ''Jeez '' and '' FFS '' cannot really be considered substantive arguments )
2) 650 spider has at least come up with an alternative suggestion for the coolant leak .
Indeed accident damage is the obvious explanation for a coolant leak in this particular car ( which is WHY I did not feel that there was anything to comment upon until the OP came back with the Main Dealer Report stating that rubbing hoses was the cause of the rupture ) BUT for 2 things :
(a) The car has been examined by a McLaren Main Dealer , and the technicians there have stated that the coolant leak was caused by two hoses rubbing against each other and rupturing .
The Main Dealer has specifically said that it was not caused by a loose hose , and the Main Dealer has not blamed accident damage as the cause for the hoses rubbing and rupturing .
The easiest thing for the Main Dealer and McLaren HQ to do would have been to place blame for the hose rupture on the accident , but they have had the honesty and the integrity not to do this and take the easy route out ..... respect to the MD and McLaren for this .
(b) 650 spider has said '' Who can discount that the impact may be the root cause of this and either damaged the hoses or bent a hose bracket that was unnoticed during the repair process and the dealer doesn't fancy putting his hands up? ''
I really don't think that anyone should be pointing the finger at the Main Dealer without a shred of evidence to back this up .
It is mean-spirited to blame the poor dealer when there is nothing at all to suggest that they are prone to dishonesty .
McLaren HQ simply would not tolerate such dishonesty either .
So why am i so bothered with a car that i don't own ?
Because both the 570S and the 720 have class leading performance , look spectacular , and are available at such absolute bargain basement prices on the 2nd hand market , that both these cars must be on every petrolhead's radar .
Being informed about a car is the first step of getting to know it -- and that means knowing its bad aspects as well as its good points .
Throughout this thread , and on other threads , I have always tried not to talk negatively about a specific marque or a specific model , simply because owners have invested into their choice of car , and obviously love their cars ( otherwise why would they be on PH ? ) , and there is never anything to be gained from gratuitously upsetting anyone .
But that shouldn't mean that you shy away from talking about important aspects , good or bad , of any given car .
Or that you deny very real possibilities out of hand .
Rather than accepting that a design fault is a very real possibility that needs further investigation , davek-964 and MAC720S are instead falling back on imponderables like chance , bad luck , fate , misfortune , and destiny .
Why invoke such imponderables rather than simply take what the Main Dealer has said at face value ?
davek-964 and MAC720S may choose not to explain why they are so sure that a design fault is not a possibility , which is of course entirely their choice , but this merely suggests that they have no credible alternative explanation as to explain why a Main Dealer has said that the coolant loss was due to two hoses rubbing against each other to the point of one or both hoses rupturing .
Never good not to be able to back up your assertions or your publicly expressed thoughts .
So ronnie , this is not trolling .
This is giving you good hard reasons for why a design fault cannot be discounted out of hand .
And ronnie , what's this all about : '' If we accept a Design Fault as a fault in the design caused by a mistake in the design phase of car '' ?
( Yes , of course it is , what else could it be ? )
I have previously called on davek-964 and MAC720S to explain themselves , and it therefore incumbent for me to do the same , so here goes :
1) I said that a design fault should be considered as a possibility , and indeed went further and said that it was the most likely possibility based on the facts that the OP had presented to this forum .
-davek-964 immediately discounted this possibility , but gave no considered reason to support this assertion ( and still hasn't) .
-MAC720S then rose up in support of davek-964 , but again has still not provided any considered reason for discounting a design fault as a possible cause for the coolant leak.
Neither of these two commentators have come up with a credible alternative explanation for the coolant leak , and from their previous postings , both would have done so immediately had they had a credible alternative explanation . ( ''Jeez '' and '' FFS '' cannot really be considered substantive arguments )
2) 650 spider has at least come up with an alternative suggestion for the coolant leak .
Indeed accident damage is the obvious explanation for a coolant leak in this particular car ( which is WHY I did not feel that there was anything to comment upon until the OP came back with the Main Dealer Report stating that rubbing hoses was the cause of the rupture ) BUT for 2 things :
(a) The car has been examined by a McLaren Main Dealer , and the technicians there have stated that the coolant leak was caused by two hoses rubbing against each other and rupturing .
The Main Dealer has specifically said that it was not caused by a loose hose , and the Main Dealer has not blamed accident damage as the cause for the hoses rubbing and rupturing .
The easiest thing for the Main Dealer and McLaren HQ to do would have been to place blame for the hose rupture on the accident , but they have had the honesty and the integrity not to do this and take the easy route out ..... respect to the MD and McLaren for this .
(b) 650 spider has said '' Who can discount that the impact may be the root cause of this and either damaged the hoses or bent a hose bracket that was unnoticed during the repair process and the dealer doesn't fancy putting his hands up? ''
I really don't think that anyone should be pointing the finger at the Main Dealer without a shred of evidence to back this up .
It is mean-spirited to blame the poor dealer when there is nothing at all to suggest that they are prone to dishonesty .
McLaren HQ simply would not tolerate such dishonesty either .
So why am i so bothered with a car that i don't own ?
Because both the 570S and the 720 have class leading performance , look spectacular , and are available at such absolute bargain basement prices on the 2nd hand market , that both these cars must be on every petrolhead's radar .
Being informed about a car is the first step of getting to know it -- and that means knowing its bad aspects as well as its good points .
Throughout this thread , and on other threads , I have always tried not to talk negatively about a specific marque or a specific model , simply because owners have invested into their choice of car , and obviously love their cars ( otherwise why would they be on PH ? ) , and there is never anything to be gained from gratuitously upsetting anyone .
But that shouldn't mean that you shy away from talking about important aspects , good or bad , of any given car .
Or that you deny very real possibilities out of hand .
Rather than accepting that a design fault is a very real possibility that needs further investigation , davek-964 and MAC720S are instead falling back on imponderables like chance , bad luck , fate , misfortune , and destiny .
Why invoke such imponderables rather than simply take what the Main Dealer has said at face value ?
davek-964 and MAC720S may choose not to explain why they are so sure that a design fault is not a possibility , which is of course entirely their choice , but this merely suggests that they have no credible alternative explanation as to explain why a Main Dealer has said that the coolant loss was due to two hoses rubbing against each other to the point of one or both hoses rupturing .
Never good not to be able to back up your assertions or your publicly expressed thoughts .
So ronnie , this is not trolling .
This is giving you good hard reasons for why a design fault cannot be discounted out of hand .
And ronnie , what's this all about : '' If we accept a Design Fault as a fault in the design caused by a mistake in the design phase of car '' ?
( Yes , of course it is , what else could it be ? )
PGNSagaris said:
I've you applied yourself this studiously to your day job, you'd be in a McLaren
Hahahahahaha that made me larff!!! By the way,everyone should take a look at some of carparth or whatever he is called other posts. The one about the supercar private meet is priceless!!carspath said:
stuff
Dude, please take it easy, you seem to be very anal about things we owners are not too fussed about. Its a coolant hose. It will be sorted. Of course we don't like to hear it happened and feel for the OP. We agree it's a crap situation, and the OP here has had a tough ride with the accident/Covid delays/bad supply chain.But please stop being this guy:
Targarama said:
carspath said:
stuff
Dude, please take it easy, you seem to be very anal about things we owners are not too fussed about. Its a coolant hose. It will be sorted. Of course we don't like to hear it happened and feel for the OP. We agree it's a crap situation, and the OP here has had a tough ride with the accident/Covid delays/bad supply chain.But please stop being this guy:
I'm not sure how this thread has ended up where it is but the facts seem quite simple to me.
The OP stated: "Not a huge amount of visible damage but did require replacing crash cans (which were the wrongly supplied parts)"
So I'm going to guess that it was more of a nudge than a big impact. I very much doubt that has any bearing at all on the coolant leak and that is completely unrelated to the accident damage or repair, particularly if the engine has to come out to fix the pipes. I think its just an unfortunate sequence of events.
The OP stated: "Not a huge amount of visible damage but did require replacing crash cans (which were the wrongly supplied parts)"
So I'm going to guess that it was more of a nudge than a big impact. I very much doubt that has any bearing at all on the coolant leak and that is completely unrelated to the accident damage or repair, particularly if the engine has to come out to fix the pipes. I think its just an unfortunate sequence of events.
PGNSagaris : '' I've you applied yourself this studiously to your day job, you'd be in a McLaren ''
Both you and my mother are / were so right :
Too much time behind the bike sheds ( actually there weren't any - you had to walk ) at school , and now too much time on PH , has left me nursing a rusty , old MX5
Really should have tried ( much ) harder , and for once I'm not pulling anyone's big toe .
( Really fine car that MX5 though - and now I'm really not tugging at anything )
And yes , The Heavens allow me to post even in the daylight hours , although I am only allowed out come twilight .
Meanwhile PH ers , '' Pity me not, but lend thy serious hearing , To what I shall unfold. ''
OK , enough about me and the ghouls of Hamlet .
What's the current story re the mechanicals of this 720S ?
Both you and my mother are / were so right :
Too much time behind the bike sheds ( actually there weren't any - you had to walk ) at school , and now too much time on PH , has left me nursing a rusty , old MX5
Really should have tried ( much ) harder , and for once I'm not pulling anyone's big toe .
( Really fine car that MX5 though - and now I'm really not tugging at anything )
And yes , The Heavens allow me to post even in the daylight hours , although I am only allowed out come twilight .
Meanwhile PH ers , '' Pity me not, but lend thy serious hearing , To what I shall unfold. ''
OK , enough about me and the ghouls of Hamlet .
What's the current story re the mechanicals of this 720S ?
carspath said:
PGNSagaris : '' I've you applied yourself this studiously to your day job, you'd be in a McLaren ''
Both you and my mother are / were so right :
Too much time behind the bike sheds ( actually there weren't any - you had to walk ) at school , and now too much time on PH , has left me nursing a rusty , old MX5
Really should have tried ( much ) harder , and for once I'm not pulling anyone's big toe .
( Really fine car that MX5 though - and now I'm really not tugging at anything )
And yes , The Heavens allow me to post even in the daylight hours , although I am only allowed out come twilight .
Meanwhile PH ers , '' Pity me not, but lend thy serious hearing , To what I shall unfold. ''
OK , enough about me and the ghouls of Hamlet .
What's the current story re the mechanicals of this 720S ?
WOW!! Please please can you give me the phone number of the guy you get your weed from!!Both you and my mother are / were so right :
Too much time behind the bike sheds ( actually there weren't any - you had to walk ) at school , and now too much time on PH , has left me nursing a rusty , old MX5
Really should have tried ( much ) harder , and for once I'm not pulling anyone's big toe .
( Really fine car that MX5 though - and now I'm really not tugging at anything )
And yes , The Heavens allow me to post even in the daylight hours , although I am only allowed out come twilight .
Meanwhile PH ers , '' Pity me not, but lend thy serious hearing , To what I shall unfold. ''
OK , enough about me and the ghouls of Hamlet .
What's the current story re the mechanicals of this 720S ?
Sure thing PistonGuy66 .
He's called William
Maternal grandfather was into growing things .... not sure that it was weed though .
Used to live in Warwickshire , but moved to London .... more custom there apparently
Hung around in Southwark , in a public house with dancing girls and bears called the Globe.... many speeches , but not much beer .... yes , I agree , not quite your scene .
Not sure William dealt much in weed himself , but was certainly keen on squiggling on parchment with a quill .
Are you up to speed yet PistonGuy66 ?
Or do you need yet more help ?.
Worrying that you think that you can contact William by phone .
If you do, it really sounds like you spent far too much time behind the bike sheds
He's called William
Maternal grandfather was into growing things .... not sure that it was weed though .
Used to live in Warwickshire , but moved to London .... more custom there apparently
Hung around in Southwark , in a public house with dancing girls and bears called the Globe.... many speeches , but not much beer .... yes , I agree , not quite your scene .
Not sure William dealt much in weed himself , but was certainly keen on squiggling on parchment with a quill .
Are you up to speed yet PistonGuy66 ?
Or do you need yet more help ?.
Worrying that you think that you can contact William by phone .
If you do, it really sounds like you spent far too much time behind the bike sheds
king weirdoWhaoh - just stumbled across this thread on a Sunday morning. Relaxation gone!
Looks like a very bad experience and a cry for help from the OP. I'm sure there is no expectation to be able to return the vehicle but equally massive sympathy for a catalogue of errors.
As others have suggested, it would be reasonable for the OP to plot out in logical steps what has gone wrong and when; and the financial impact this has imposed on his ownership experience. I appreciate that the OP is not making this into a financial issue but this aspect may at least be a tangible means by which to grab the attention of Mclaren HQ and fully appreciate what has gone wrong. And also illustrate why they should be going the extra mile to help the customer and in turn McLaren's reputation.
I suspect that the incident with the hoses will not be a quick fix. Whether the problem is a latent design defect, a Friday afternoon factory assembly issue, or an error during the accident repair works (perhaps the apparent minor damage still required engine out) - I suspect that McLaren will be obliged to fully investigate to ensure that it is a one off and not a design problem which could play out across the cars produced to date. Seems very unlikely to be latent defect however, I suspect that the manufacturer will be compelled to fully investigate.
Quite a conversation to be had with McL HQ at the end of this and best wishes to the OP for a satisfactory outcome, albeit damage done.
Peter
Looks like a very bad experience and a cry for help from the OP. I'm sure there is no expectation to be able to return the vehicle but equally massive sympathy for a catalogue of errors.
As others have suggested, it would be reasonable for the OP to plot out in logical steps what has gone wrong and when; and the financial impact this has imposed on his ownership experience. I appreciate that the OP is not making this into a financial issue but this aspect may at least be a tangible means by which to grab the attention of Mclaren HQ and fully appreciate what has gone wrong. And also illustrate why they should be going the extra mile to help the customer and in turn McLaren's reputation.
I suspect that the incident with the hoses will not be a quick fix. Whether the problem is a latent design defect, a Friday afternoon factory assembly issue, or an error during the accident repair works (perhaps the apparent minor damage still required engine out) - I suspect that McLaren will be obliged to fully investigate to ensure that it is a one off and not a design problem which could play out across the cars produced to date. Seems very unlikely to be latent defect however, I suspect that the manufacturer will be compelled to fully investigate.
Quite a conversation to be had with McL HQ at the end of this and best wishes to the OP for a satisfactory outcome, albeit damage done.
Peter
northpolar said:
Whaoh - just stumbled across this thread on a Sunday morning. Relaxation gone!
Looks like a very bad experience and a cry for help from the OP. I'm sure there is no expectation to be able to return the vehicle but equally massive sympathy for a catalogue of errors.
As others have suggested, it would be reasonable for the OP to plot out in logical steps what has gone wrong and when; and the financial impact this has imposed on his ownership experience. I appreciate that the OP is not making this into a financial issue but this aspect may at least be a tangible means by which to grab the attention of Mclaren HQ and fully appreciate what has gone wrong. And also illustrate why they should be going the extra mile to help the customer and in turn McLaren's reputation.
I suspect that the incident with the hoses will not be a quick fix. Whether the problem is a latent design defect, a Friday afternoon factory assembly issue, or an error during the accident repair works (perhaps the apparent minor damage still required engine out) - I suspect that McLaren will be obliged to fully investigate to ensure that it is a one off and not a design problem which could play out across the cars produced to date. Seems very unlikely to be latent defect however, I suspect that the manufacturer will be compelled to fully investigate.
Quite a conversation to be had with McL HQ at the end of this and best wishes to the OP for a satisfactory outcome, albeit damage done.
Peter
The point about the financial side of things would at least focus the minds of the guilty party!Looks like a very bad experience and a cry for help from the OP. I'm sure there is no expectation to be able to return the vehicle but equally massive sympathy for a catalogue of errors.
As others have suggested, it would be reasonable for the OP to plot out in logical steps what has gone wrong and when; and the financial impact this has imposed on his ownership experience. I appreciate that the OP is not making this into a financial issue but this aspect may at least be a tangible means by which to grab the attention of Mclaren HQ and fully appreciate what has gone wrong. And also illustrate why they should be going the extra mile to help the customer and in turn McLaren's reputation.
I suspect that the incident with the hoses will not be a quick fix. Whether the problem is a latent design defect, a Friday afternoon factory assembly issue, or an error during the accident repair works (perhaps the apparent minor damage still required engine out) - I suspect that McLaren will be obliged to fully investigate to ensure that it is a one off and not a design problem which could play out across the cars produced to date. Seems very unlikely to be latent defect however, I suspect that the manufacturer will be compelled to fully investigate.
Quite a conversation to be had with McL HQ at the end of this and best wishes to the OP for a satisfactory outcome, albeit damage done.
Peter
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