Mumtalakat to take over McLaren
Discussion
Wheelspinning said:
Grey_Area said:
Our MTC visit .
Asked how many cars being manufactured now, mid/late 2023,
They replied, "nearly pre Covid levels, roughly 4k/yr, of which 1% are UK market.
Wow...really...40 cars a year... so each uk dealership sells about 3 cars a year...whowuddathoughit...Asked how many cars being manufactured now, mid/late 2023,
They replied, "nearly pre Covid levels, roughly 4k/yr, of which 1% are UK market.
Rather than speculating I'm sure the annual registration numbers by marque are probably out there somewhere for 2023.
I suspect Ferrari and McLaren will not be miles apart as Purosangue have only started to arrive in recent months so 2023 would be primarily SF90, Roma and 296.
This year Ferrari will be up with the new model coming through and reaching a much wider audience.
I suspect Ferrari and McLaren will not be miles apart as Purosangue have only started to arrive in recent months so 2023 would be primarily SF90, Roma and 296.
This year Ferrari will be up with the new model coming through and reaching a much wider audience.
Forester1965 said:
Cheib said:
Interested to know where you got that stat ?! I know SMMT produce data by brand but not seen it for the smaller manufacturers before.
From here:https://www.am-online.com/data/manufacturer-insigh...
Grey_Area said:
Our MTC visit .
Asked how many cars being manufactured now, mid/late 2023,
They replied, "nearly pre Covid levels, roughly 4k/yr, of which 1% are UK market.
If they said that then that is actually quite worrying - they only sold 1,569 cars in the first 9 months of 2023. They aren't going to last very long building 2 cars for every 1 they sell.Asked how many cars being manufactured now, mid/late 2023,
They replied, "nearly pre Covid levels, roughly 4k/yr, of which 1% are UK market.
Most likely they were
I wouldn't read too much into supercar sales in Feb, when very few people are out shopping for them and it's after the Jan 1 reg date and before the new reg plate. Lambo only sold 8 cars in Feb and no-one thinks they're going bust.
The YTD sales are slightly more illuminating:
Ferrari 104
Lambo 85
McLaren 13
So McLaren still doing badly but nothing like as low as the 40 cars per year mentioned above.
By comparison for interest Porsche did 1,720 which shows how diverse their range is and slightly off-topic;
Land Rover 6,196
Ineos 32
Ineos must be in a similar camp to McLaren on financials, they just have the luxury of having a billionaire owner.
The YTD sales are slightly more illuminating:
Ferrari 104
Lambo 85
McLaren 13
So McLaren still doing badly but nothing like as low as the 40 cars per year mentioned above.
By comparison for interest Porsche did 1,720 which shows how diverse their range is and slightly off-topic;
Land Rover 6,196
Ineos 32
Ineos must be in a similar camp to McLaren on financials, they just have the luxury of having a billionaire owner.
cgt2 said:
Rather than speculating I'm sure the annual registration numbers by marque are probably out there somewhere for 2023.
I suspect Ferrari and McLaren will not be miles apart as Purosangue have only started to arrive in recent months so 2023 would be primarily SF90, Roma and 296.
This year Ferrari will be up with the new model coming through and reaching a much wider audience.
Ferrari list sales of just over 1000 cars to the UK in their 20223 annual report, I presume that's wholesale deliveries rather than registered sales though. I suspect Ferrari and McLaren will not be miles apart as Purosangue have only started to arrive in recent months so 2023 would be primarily SF90, Roma and 296.
This year Ferrari will be up with the new model coming through and reaching a much wider audience.
Wills2 said:
Ferrari list sales of just over 1000 cars to the UK in their 20223 annual report, I presume that's wholesale deliveries rather than registered sales though.
Knowing my local Ferrari dealer quite well I hear snippets of information that they are off to a great start with Purosangue and are looking at a very comfortable 2024 assuming ordered cars arrive when due to.In contrast they seem to be struggling quite a lot with 296 and SF90.
cgt2 said:
Knowing my local Ferrari dealer quite well I hear snippets of information that they are off to a great start with Purosangue and are looking at a very comfortable 2024 assuming ordered cars arrive when due to.
In contrast they seem to be struggling quite a lot with 296 and SF90.
Well if it is anything like Lamborghini where the Urus accounts for half the global sales with USA/China been largest markets pretty much.In contrast they seem to be struggling quite a lot with 296 and SF90.
So am sure the Purosangue is going to sell so well that any short fall from 296/SF90 will be pretty irrelevant.
It's been mentioned before but the SSO's blogs are such a good read (well, IMHO anyway) it's worth mentioning again. If you're after regular updates on the financial performances of supercar manufacturers, these are a great read:
https://karenable.com/super-cars/
https://karenable.com/super-cars/
TBCTBC said:
It's been mentioned before but the SSO's blogs are such a good read (well, IMHO anyway) it's worth mentioning again. If you're after regular updates on the financial performances of supercar manufacturers, these are a great read:
https://karenable.com/super-cars/
I have heard from at least one representative of a manufacturer that they read his blog very carefully. https://karenable.com/super-cars/
cgt2 said:
Knowing my local Ferrari dealer quite well I hear snippets of information that they are off to a great start with Purosangue and are looking at a very comfortable 2024 assuming ordered cars arrive when due to.
In contrast they seem to be struggling quite a lot with 296 and SF90.
Ferrari are on their way to joining Aston Martin, Lamborghini and Lotus to become an SUV manufacturer that also sells some sports cars - although I would add that I think the Purosangue is the least SUV-like of the bunch and the one I hate the least by a big margin.In contrast they seem to be struggling quite a lot with 296 and SF90.
I hate to say it but it's almost certain that any future buyer of the brand will follow the same route with McLaren and almost immediately start work on their SUV. To my mind it makes a brand much less desirable, when I was a kid Porsche was a super high end brand that I lusted after. Now I just see them as another BMW or Merc rival. But I am clearly a dinosaur who is out of line with market demand so no investor board in their right mind should listen to me. Companies exist to make money and Porsche makes so much money from their big ugly SUVs I doubt they could give less of a s
t what a few old fashioned petrolheads like me think.Before everyone jumps in and says it's good that they can take the profits from selling an SUV to allow them to keep making sports cars, yes I know that. I realise my perspective is objectively wrong from a business perspective. That doesn't mean I can't be sad about it.
Guyr said:
The YTD sales are slightly more illuminating:
Ferrari 104
Lambo 85
McLaren 13
So McLaren still doing badly but nothing like as low as the 40 cars per year mentioned above.
By comparison for interest Porsche did 1,720 which shows how diverse their range is and slightly off-topic;
Any idea how many of those Porsches, Lambos and Ferraris were sports cars? I bet if you strip out the SUVs, proper 4 seaters, and EVs the numbers are a lot closer. I gather Lambo's split is a bit more even than some manufacturers.Ferrari 104
Lambo 85
McLaren 13
So McLaren still doing badly but nothing like as low as the 40 cars per year mentioned above.
By comparison for interest Porsche did 1,720 which shows how diverse their range is and slightly off-topic;
The problem is McL don't have a cash cow to support the interesting stuff.
murphyaj said:
Ferrari are on their way to joining Aston Martin, Lamborghini and Lotus to become an SUV manufacturer that also sells some sports cars - although I would add that I think the Purosangue is the least SUV-like of the bunch and the one I hate the least by a big margin.
I hate to say it but it's almost certain that any future buyer of the brand will follow the same route with McLaren and almost immediately start work on their SUV. To my mind it makes a brand much less desirable, when I was a kid Porsche was a super high end brand that I lusted after. Now I just see them as another BMW or Merc rival. But I am clearly a dinosaur who is out of line with market demand so no investor board in their right mind should listen to me. Companies exist to make money and Porsche makes so much money from their big ugly SUVs I doubt they could give less of a st what a few old fashioned petrolheads like me think.
Before everyone jumps in and says it's good that they can take the profits from selling an SUV to allow them to keep making sports cars, yes I know that. I realise my perspective is objectively wrong from a business perspective. That doesn't mean I can't be sad about it.
agreed on every single word, sadlyI hate to say it but it's almost certain that any future buyer of the brand will follow the same route with McLaren and almost immediately start work on their SUV. To my mind it makes a brand much less desirable, when I was a kid Porsche was a super high end brand that I lusted after. Now I just see them as another BMW or Merc rival. But I am clearly a dinosaur who is out of line with market demand so no investor board in their right mind should listen to me. Companies exist to make money and Porsche makes so much money from their big ugly SUVs I doubt they could give less of a s
t what a few old fashioned petrolheads like me think.Before everyone jumps in and says it's good that they can take the profits from selling an SUV to allow them to keep making sports cars, yes I know that. I realise my perspective is objectively wrong from a business perspective. That doesn't mean I can't be sad about it.
ex-devonpaul said:
Guyr said:
The YTD sales are slightly more illuminating:
Ferrari 104
Lambo 85
McLaren 13
So McLaren still doing badly but nothing like as low as the 40 cars per year mentioned above.
By comparison for interest Porsche did 1,720 which shows how diverse their range is and slightly off-topic;
Any idea how many of those Porsches, Lambos and Ferraris were sports cars? I bet if you strip out the SUVs, proper 4 seaters, and EVs the numbers are a lot closer. I gather Lambo's split is a bit more even than some manufacturers.Ferrari 104
Lambo 85
McLaren 13
So McLaren still doing badly but nothing like as low as the 40 cars per year mentioned above.
By comparison for interest Porsche did 1,720 which shows how diverse their range is and slightly off-topic;
The problem is McL don't have a cash cow to support the interesting stuff.
Ferrari 267 (before deliveries of the Big Ugly Truck Thing had started)
Lamborghini 183 (101 URUS, i.e. 55%)
McLaren 58
Porsche 5481 (615 Cayenne, 1444 Macan, i.e. 37.5%)
Separately, Ferrari have already made more than 2,000 trucks (at £300k+ each before options).
Edited by jtremlett on Wednesday 20th March 14:11
jtremlett said:
ust to give an idea, these are the numbers from Q3 last year (Q4 not yet available):
Ferrari 267 (before deliveries of the Big Ugly Truck Thing had started)
Lamborghini 183 (101 URUS, i.e. 55%)
McLaren 58
Porsche 5481 (615 Cayenne, 1444 Macan, i.e. 37.5%)
Separately, Ferrari have already made more than 2,000 trucks (at £300k+ each before options).
Do the Porsche figures include about a thousand Taycans that dealers had to order but couldnt shift?Ferrari 267 (before deliveries of the Big Ugly Truck Thing had started)
Lamborghini 183 (101 URUS, i.e. 55%)
McLaren 58
Porsche 5481 (615 Cayenne, 1444 Macan, i.e. 37.5%)
Separately, Ferrari have already made more than 2,000 trucks (at £300k+ each before options).
I don't think McLaren need to (or will ever be able to) match Ferrari sales figures but they sure need to start making money on what they do sell.
CLK-GTR said:
jtremlett said:
ust to give an idea, these are the numbers from Q3 last year (Q4 not yet available):
Ferrari 267 (before deliveries of the Big Ugly Truck Thing had started)
Lamborghini 183 (101 URUS, i.e. 55%)
McLaren 58
Porsche 5481 (615 Cayenne, 1444 Macan, i.e. 37.5%)
Separately, Ferrari have already made more than 2,000 trucks (at £300k+ each before options).
Do the Porsche figures include about a thousand Taycans that dealers had to order but couldnt shift?Ferrari 267 (before deliveries of the Big Ugly Truck Thing had started)
Lamborghini 183 (101 URUS, i.e. 55%)
McLaren 58
Porsche 5481 (615 Cayenne, 1444 Macan, i.e. 37.5%)
Separately, Ferrari have already made more than 2,000 trucks (at £300k+ each before options).
I don't think McLaren need to (or will ever be able to) match Ferrari sales figures but they sure need to start making money on what they do sell.
You're right, it isn't about sales. It is about the bottom line. No business can sustain big losses long term.
Incidentally, Ineos was mentioned somewhere above and they had 621 registrations in Q3 last year. I don't know whether that translates into a profit or not but that seems a fair number to me.
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