Why is 600LT steering not a patch on 675LT?
Discussion
I drove a 675LT and was very impressed with the weighted feel of the steering wheel and can see why they're seen as such special cars. Enjoyable to drive even at lower speeds it felt special - which isnt something I could say for 720S.
However I drove it back to back with the 600LT and was expecting to find it would be almost as good for a lesser cost. The top mounted exhausts and sound of these is awesome. However, the steering was light and had hardly any of the feel in comparison to the 675LT. Yes I'm sure its very good when compared with like for like cars, but the 675LT was another league good. Am I missing something?
However I drove it back to back with the 600LT and was expecting to find it would be almost as good for a lesser cost. The top mounted exhausts and sound of these is awesome. However, the steering was light and had hardly any of the feel in comparison to the 675LT. Yes I'm sure its very good when compared with like for like cars, but the 675LT was another league good. Am I missing something?
A whole host of factors can impact steering feel:
- Tyre type and pressure along with age/wear
- Alignment settings
- Wear and condition of bushes etc.
Have to say never had a complaint about my 600 LT steering, better than my 458, on par with my 987 Spyder, nearly as good as my Exige and better than my 991 GT3 was, so for me I feel the steering feedback on the 600 LT is very good.
- Tyre type and pressure along with age/wear
- Alignment settings
- Wear and condition of bushes etc.
Have to say never had a complaint about my 600 LT steering, better than my 458, on par with my 987 Spyder, nearly as good as my Exige and better than my 991 GT3 was, so for me I feel the steering feedback on the 600 LT is very good.
Both great drivers cars.
Steering feel is highly subjective and can vary based on individual preferences and driving styles. Some drivers may prefer the steering feel of the 675LT over the 600LT for personal reasons.
That said, RRP for the 675 was £260k and for the 600LT was £180k.
Spec’d up, you are comparing a £300+k vs £200+k car.
For that extra cash you’d hope there are some technology or engineering innovation, design reasons for the difference you experienced.
Steering feel is highly subjective and can vary based on individual preferences and driving styles. Some drivers may prefer the steering feel of the 675LT over the 600LT for personal reasons.
That said, RRP for the 675 was £260k and for the 600LT was £180k.
Spec’d up, you are comparing a £300+k vs £200+k car.
For that extra cash you’d hope there are some technology or engineering innovation, design reasons for the difference you experienced.
Agree with Gibbo, another 600LT owner here.
I recall the 675LT has a unroadworthy turning circle, i.e. I suspect the rack is more direct than the later 600LT, which may explain a different feel from the 600LT.
Considering how already exceptional the rack is on the 600, I don’t see it as issue.
I recall the 675LT has a unroadworthy turning circle, i.e. I suspect the rack is more direct than the later 600LT, which may explain a different feel from the 600LT.
Considering how already exceptional the rack is on the 600, I don’t see it as issue.
For full transparency, both were spyders and the 600LT was 17k miles, the 675LT was 6k miles, however both have been setup properly I'm sure as they've both recently been serviced etc. I'm fairly convinced this had nothing to do with tyres/geo etc.
Certainly not suggesting 600LT is "unroadworthy" or there is any "issue" - its clearly a fantastic car. Steering is bit better than 458 for sure. However, the 675LT I drove was especially heavy/weighted at slower speeds. Massively different to the 600LT. It may have helped the impression of the 675LT that it had an Alcantara steering wheel and the 600LT was leather, but the 600LT didn't feel nearly as weighted *in comparison* to the 675LT so much so I was quite surprised when I drove it and wondered if they didnt change the steering rack as much over the 570?
Not suggesting or taking anything away from the 600LT - I'm purely trying to understand why the 675LT is EVEN MORE impressive and simply has so much more of a weighted feeling. Surely the power steering hadn't failed (!) but it was a very noticeable difference.
I am now understanding too why people say the 675LT is like driving a go kart and surely the heavier weighted steering has something to do with that suggestion.
Has anyone else recently driven both and can attest to this?
Certainly not suggesting 600LT is "unroadworthy" or there is any "issue" - its clearly a fantastic car. Steering is bit better than 458 for sure. However, the 675LT I drove was especially heavy/weighted at slower speeds. Massively different to the 600LT. It may have helped the impression of the 675LT that it had an Alcantara steering wheel and the 600LT was leather, but the 600LT didn't feel nearly as weighted *in comparison* to the 675LT so much so I was quite surprised when I drove it and wondered if they didnt change the steering rack as much over the 570?
Not suggesting or taking anything away from the 600LT - I'm purely trying to understand why the 675LT is EVEN MORE impressive and simply has so much more of a weighted feeling. Surely the power steering hadn't failed (!) but it was a very noticeable difference.
I am now understanding too why people say the 675LT is like driving a go kart and surely the heavier weighted steering has something to do with that suggestion.
Has anyone else recently driven both and can attest to this?
Edited by 4l3x on Friday 15th March 19:44
4l3x said:
both have been setup properly I'm sure as they've both recently been serviced etc.
I bought a 570GT last year, on 17k. Shortly afterwards, the car stepped out on me unexpectedly in a left-hand corner.V Engineering found the right rear toe was set to 1.8 degrees out, when it should be 1.x degrees in.
I had paid a McLaren dealership £400 for a pre-purchase inspection, which made no mention of this.
JayEmm drove this car for a video in 2021, and said it felt unstable at the rear. The car had been serviced by a different McLaren dealership three times between that vid and when I bought it.
So:
- these cars have a lot of adjustment in the suspension
- being misadjusted can easily happen and can cause significant handling problems
- servicing or inspection at McLaren dealerships in no way assures that geometry is aligned correctly
And yes, since V fixed the alignment the car now corners much better.
4l3x said:
For full transparency, both were spyders and the 600LT was 17k miles, the 675LT was 6k miles, however both have been setup properly I'm sure as they've both recently been serviced etc. I'm fairly convinced this had nothing to do with tyres/geo etc.
As Sam has said, Mclaren wont even check geo, Thorney has done a video on geo and cars have been considerably out from factory.Im not saying this is the answer but may have been a factor
Just to echo what others have said a service does not include alignment.
An inspection does also not include alignment!
In fact some garages when changing suspension components will just put marks on the bolts, they will change the component and put the eccentric bolts back to where they were or same amount of shims back in.
It’s wrong but for garages putting a car on an alignment is time and time cost money so they never do it unless you actually request it or inform them the car feels odd at which point they will check and a main dealer will no doubt charge you a pretty penny for.
I’ve got a little toe out on my 600 LT as I feel it enhanced the front end in feel and response and as these things are not checked you can drive two identical cars that both drive totally different simply down to alignment and tyre pressures.
An inspection does also not include alignment!
In fact some garages when changing suspension components will just put marks on the bolts, they will change the component and put the eccentric bolts back to where they were or same amount of shims back in.
It’s wrong but for garages putting a car on an alignment is time and time cost money so they never do it unless you actually request it or inform them the car feels odd at which point they will check and a main dealer will no doubt charge you a pretty penny for.
I’ve got a little toe out on my 600 LT as I feel it enhanced the front end in feel and response and as these things are not checked you can drive two identical cars that both drive totally different simply down to alignment and tyre pressures.
I have driven my 675LT immediately back to back with a friends 600LT. I am a 675LT fan boy so I openly admit bias and a lot of that is to do with aesthetics. However, putting all that aside and objectively comparing driving dynamics the 600LT feels like a 'toy' version or very good 'fake' of a 675LT. It just doesn't have that final bit of special sauce. I'm not taking anything away from it, objectively its better than almost any other car on the road, I just think the 675LT is more than a sum of its parts and has some special magic.
When we returned to my mates house the first thing he did (even before making me a coffee!) was call Alastair Bolls and buy a 675LT, over the phone, he didn't even like the colour. His 600LT went on SoR on the Monday. He changes his cars more often than his Y fronts, he's had the 675LT 2 years now.
As for the turning circle, you get used to it and IMHO every supercar should have a quirk, like sitting on the sill to reverse a Countach, doing a 5 point turn in a 675LT becomes a spectacle for all passers by to enjoy. A supercar without a quirk might as well be a Golf R.
When we returned to my mates house the first thing he did (even before making me a coffee!) was call Alastair Bolls and buy a 675LT, over the phone, he didn't even like the colour. His 600LT went on SoR on the Monday. He changes his cars more often than his Y fronts, he's had the 675LT 2 years now.
As for the turning circle, you get used to it and IMHO every supercar should have a quirk, like sitting on the sill to reverse a Countach, doing a 5 point turn in a 675LT becomes a spectacle for all passers by to enjoy. A supercar without a quirk might as well be a Golf R.
Gibbo205 said:
Just to echo what others have said a service does not include alignment.
An inspection does also not include alignment!
In fact some garages when changing suspension components will just put marks on the bolts, they will change the component and put the eccentric bolts back to where they were or same amount of shims back in.
It’s wrong but for garages putting a car on an alignment is time and time cost money so they never do it unless you actually request it or inform them the car feels odd at which point they will check and a main dealer will no doubt charge you a pretty penny for.
I’ve got a little toe out on my 600 LT as I feel it enhanced the front end in feel and response and as these things are not checked you can drive two identical cars that both drive totally different simply down to alignment and tyre pressures.
After someones reccomendation on here, sorry i forget who, i put some spacerson my 570s, not big 13mm ish and it was like a different car on turn in. No reason why it wouldnt be the same for the 600.An inspection does also not include alignment!
In fact some garages when changing suspension components will just put marks on the bolts, they will change the component and put the eccentric bolts back to where they were or same amount of shims back in.
It’s wrong but for garages putting a car on an alignment is time and time cost money so they never do it unless you actually request it or inform them the car feels odd at which point they will check and a main dealer will no doubt charge you a pretty penny for.
I’ve got a little toe out on my 600 LT as I feel it enhanced the front end in feel and response and as these things are not checked you can drive two identical cars that both drive totally different simply down to alignment and tyre pressures.
An interesting video where he prefers the 600 to both the 675 and Senna, his reasoning I guess makes sense but does go to show we all prefer different things in cars.
The smiles on their faces at the end of the video with the pro hustling it says everything really.
Whether you own a 675 or 600 your going to be one incredibly happy owner and have a super rare car.
The smiles on their faces at the end of the video with the pro hustling it says everything really.
Whether you own a 675 or 600 your going to be one incredibly happy owner and have a super rare car.
Bispal said:
I have driven my 675LT immediately back to back with a friends 600LT. I am a 675LT fan boy so I openly admit bias and a lot of that is to do with aesthetics. However, putting all that aside and objectively comparing driving dynamics the 600LT feels like a 'toy' version or very good 'fake' of a 675LT. It just doesn't have that final bit of special sauce. I'm not taking anything away from it, objectively its better than almost any other car on the road, I just think the 675LT is more than a sum of its parts and has some special magic.
When we returned to my mates house the first thing he did (even before making me a coffee!) was call Alastair Bolls and buy a 675LT, over the phone, he didn't even like the colour. His 600LT went on SoR on the Monday. He changes his cars more often than his Y fronts, he's had the 675LT 2 years now.
As for the turning circle, you get used to it and IMHO every supercar should have a quirk, like sitting on the sill to reverse a Countach, doing a 5 point turn in a 675LT becomes a spectacle for all passers by to enjoy. A supercar without a quirk might as well be a Golf R.
Thanks, this is useful feedback. On steering feel, there are lots of comments about alignment/tyres etc, but I know what an aligned vs non aligned car feels like but I'm not sure this was it as they both felt dialled in. The 675LT simply felt heavier at normal/slower speeds - just moving along in traffic, like its power steering isnt quite so assisted - more of a go kart feel at lower speeds than the 600LT. Did your driving echo any of my experience that the 675LT steering has a heavier more weighted feeling?When we returned to my mates house the first thing he did (even before making me a coffee!) was call Alastair Bolls and buy a 675LT, over the phone, he didn't even like the colour. His 600LT went on SoR on the Monday. He changes his cars more often than his Y fronts, he's had the 675LT 2 years now.
As for the turning circle, you get used to it and IMHO every supercar should have a quirk, like sitting on the sill to reverse a Countach, doing a 5 point turn in a 675LT becomes a spectacle for all passers by to enjoy. A supercar without a quirk might as well be a Golf R.
I bought a new 570S in 2019 and immediately had the supplying McLaren dealer carry out a four wheel alignment (at my cost) when it arrived. It came from the factory out of spec.
I subsequently bought a 600LT Spider, and same story, out of spec from the factory. I paid for an alignment from the dealer.
I subsequently bought a 600LT Spider, and same story, out of spec from the factory. I paid for an alignment from the dealer.
4l3x said:
Thanks, this is useful feedback. On steering feel, there are lots of comments about alignment/tyres etc, but I know what an aligned vs non aligned car feels like but I'm not sure this was it as they both felt dialled in. The 675LT simply felt heavier at normal/slower speeds - just moving along in traffic, like its power steering isnt quite so assisted - more of a go kart feel at lower speeds than the 600LT. Did your driving echo any of my experience that the 675LT steering has a heavier more weighted feeling?
Different Racks/ratios will have different feels, that will also change dependant on speed,, are you actually looking at buying any of these cars or are you just posting for the sake of it ?4l3x said:
Bispal said:
I have driven my 675LT immediately back to back with a friends 600LT. I am a 675LT fan boy so I openly admit bias and a lot of that is to do with aesthetics. However, putting all that aside and objectively comparing driving dynamics the 600LT feels like a 'toy' version or very good 'fake' of a 675LT. It just doesn't have that final bit of special sauce. I'm not taking anything away from it, objectively its better than almost any other car on the road, I just think the 675LT is more than a sum of its parts and has some special magic.
When we returned to my mates house the first thing he did (even before making me a coffee!) was call Alastair Bolls and buy a 675LT, over the phone, he didn't even like the colour. His 600LT went on SoR on the Monday. He changes his cars more often than his Y fronts, he's had the 675LT 2 years now.
As for the turning circle, you get used to it and IMHO every supercar should have a quirk, like sitting on the sill to reverse a Countach, doing a 5 point turn in a 675LT becomes a spectacle for all passers by to enjoy. A supercar without a quirk might as well be a Golf R.
Thanks, this is useful feedback. On steering feel, there are lots of comments about alignment/tyres etc, but I know what an aligned vs non aligned car feels like but I'm not sure this was it as they both felt dialled in. The 675LT simply felt heavier at normal/slower speeds - just moving along in traffic, like its power steering isnt quite so assisted - more of a go kart feel at lower speeds than the 600LT. Did your driving echo any of my experience that the 675LT steering has a heavier more weighted feeling?When we returned to my mates house the first thing he did (even before making me a coffee!) was call Alastair Bolls and buy a 675LT, over the phone, he didn't even like the colour. His 600LT went on SoR on the Monday. He changes his cars more often than his Y fronts, he's had the 675LT 2 years now.
As for the turning circle, you get used to it and IMHO every supercar should have a quirk, like sitting on the sill to reverse a Countach, doing a 5 point turn in a 675LT becomes a spectacle for all passers by to enjoy. A supercar without a quirk might as well be a Golf R.
The steering on the 675 is unlike any other road car I have driven. As Bispal says, it's so perfectly weighted at every single speed; it never seems to understeer or oversteer...its like some bizarre simulator that far exceeds your expectations.
The P1 suspension components along with the hydraulic steering and dampers all create a steering and driving experience that is up there with the very best.
You tend to find if a previous or current owner has a different experience, that the accumulators or alignment are requiring attention.
There is no doubting the capabilities of a 600LT, but it wasn't built as the evolution of the 675 or super series; it was designed as the pinnacle of the then 'sport' series.
That was a good video posted, but it was by someone whose livelihood is based on content and access to cars who was invited to a track day on the launch of the 600; make that same video today without launch fanfare and I seriously doubt anyone would have the view of picking the 600 over the 675 or Senna as the superior car.
There is a reason there was a huge price premium on launch, currently and in the future.
I almost bought a napier 600LT spider back in Oct '20 after my 650 spider ownership; it just didn't have that marked increase over the 650 that I was anticipating and at the last minute decided against it.
I ended up asking Mr Bols to source me a napier 675 spider instead.
On a footnote, I still run on the Pirellis; it seems as though switching to Michellins improves steering and feel by another %....that is food for thought.
EK993 said:
I bought a new 570S in 2019 and immediately had the supplying McLaren dealer carry out a four wheel alignment (at my cost) when it arrived. It came from the factory out of spec.
I subsequently bought a 600LT Spider, and same story, out of spec from the factory. I paid for an alignment from the dealer.
Could you give some indication of how much it costs for a McLaren dealer to check alignment / geo ?I subsequently bought a 600LT Spider, and same story, out of spec from the factory. I paid for an alignment from the dealer.
Thanks.
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