Tesla S - or - Why can't everybody else...?
Discussion
thatdude said:
What is the distance one could realistically travel on a full chage (given use of radio, lights, air-con / heater, heated seats etc etc etc etc)?
The official US EPA range for the 85kWh battery pack is 265 miles, or 208 miles from 60kWh.That'll bear roughly the same resemblance to "real world" figures as any official figures ever do.
That is very very impressive.
I could even have one for my 100-mile round commute, and recharge overnight on the "smaller" battery, or every other night on the "larger" battery
I could drive to my parents and back on one charge on the bigger battery
What's the loss in charge capacity over time? Is there a maximum amount of charges? I read on their website about warranty (8 years / unlimited miles on the 85 kWh)
I hope the Tesla brand takes off in the UK, I cant see any problems with it. Money saved running a tesla means money to spend running a ICE weekend toy (bike or car)
I could even have one for my 100-mile round commute, and recharge overnight on the "smaller" battery, or every other night on the "larger" battery
I could drive to my parents and back on one charge on the bigger battery
What's the loss in charge capacity over time? Is there a maximum amount of charges? I read on their website about warranty (8 years / unlimited miles on the 85 kWh)
I hope the Tesla brand takes off in the UK, I cant see any problems with it. Money saved running a tesla means money to spend running a ICE weekend toy (bike or car)
Edited by thatdude on Thursday 19th December 15:15
thatdude said:
I could even have one for my 100-mile round commute, and recharge overnight on the "smaller" battery, or every other night on the "larger" battery
Not off a domestic 230v supply, you wouldn't. 30hrs to fully recharge the large one at 13A - before losses.If you get a three-phase 415v supply in, then an 85kWh battery pack would recharge in a theoretical 6.5hr (before losses) pulling 32A.
TooMany2cvs said:
thatdude said:
I could even have one for my 100-mile round commute, and recharge overnight on the "smaller" battery, or every other night on the "larger" battery
Not off a domestic 230v supply, you wouldn't. 30hrs to fully recharge the large one at 13A - before losses.If you get a three-phase 415v supply in, then an 85kWh battery pack would recharge in a theoretical 6.5hr (before losses) pulling 32A.
amstrange1 said:
It's not hard to plug in every night for 10 hours though, and that should be enough for circa 100 miles.
Before losses, 10hrs on 230v 13A would give you just under 90 miles. I'll let you guesstimate those charging losses - but I'd be surprised if they're less than 25%. Down-rate it to 10A to provide a bit of headroom before the fuse goes, and you're down to 55 miles from 10hrs plugged in.8hrs in the office car park, too? Yes. But just think about how many cars there are in that car park, then multiply that by 10A - plus, of course, the installation costs for all those charging poles.
http://www.teslamotors.com/charging
The "High Power Wall Connector" promises 58 miles of range per hour of charge. - The intention is to fit one in your garage and use that over night & I'm sure they'll make them available here when the Model S arrives.
The "High Power Wall Connector" promises 58 miles of range per hour of charge. - The intention is to fit one in your garage and use that over night & I'm sure they'll make them available here when the Model S arrives.
Clivey said:
http://www.teslamotors.com/charging
The "High Power Wall Connector" promises 58 miles of range per hour of charge.
So on 240v, it reckons 20kW. That's just under 85A... There's usually a 100A main fuse coming in to the house, so - no - it wouldn't necessarily need your power supply to the house upgrading. Just don't turn too much else on - or even the oven and a power shower simultaneously - whilst the car's plugged into it.The "High Power Wall Connector" promises 58 miles of range per hour of charge.
Oh, and I know for a fact that the transformer up a pole in our garden, which serves six houses and a farm, is "only" 50kW...
TooMany2cvs said:
amstrange1 said:
It's not hard to plug in every night for 10 hours though, and that should be enough for circa 100 miles.
Before losses, 10hrs on 230v 13A would give you just under 90 miles. I'll let you guesstimate those charging losses - but I'd be surprised if they're less than 25%. Down-rate it to 10A to provide a bit of headroom before the fuse goes, and you're down to 55 miles from 10hrs plugged in.8hrs in the office car park, too? Yes. But just think about how many cars there are in that car park, then multiply that by 10A - plus, of course, the installation costs for all those charging poles.
I used to do ~65 miles of winter driving (i.e. PTC heater turned on, demist on) for 6-7 hours worth of charging through a BS1363 3-pin 13A plug when racking up validation miles on an EV I worked on. Charger efficiency was >90%, though you'd waste a bit more energy than that if it was significantly below freezing and battery heating was required - but the losses were nowhere near the 25% you claim in UK ambients.
Most OEMs will de-rate to 10A charge current through a BS1363 plug, but it's not because the fuse pops at 13A - it's due to issues with plug/socket compatibility and heat dissipation. Several of the OEMs found various combinations of plug/socket used at 13A ended up melting around the live pin after a few hours - despite all tested parts being compliant with the British Standard. If you talk to BEAMA today they'll still tell you that 13A continuous is fine through a BS1363 plug, but the automotive industry doesn't agree!
I can't find any vehicle efficiency figures for the Tesla S on their website, but VW's e-Up! is 11.7kWh/100km - or 0.19kWh/mile. If you assume a pessimistic 85% charging efficiency that gives you 0.22kWh/mile, so to do 100 miles we need 22kWh which at 10A @ 230V we can do in about 9.5 hours. So an e-Up! will do 100 miles on a 9.5 hour charge - if we assume pessimistic charging efficiency. Tesla claim 92% charging efficiency, but it'd be fair to assume a heavier car consumes more power/mile. Either way, my 10 hours for 100 miles isn't exactly ridiculous, even if a Tesla S might need a bit longer at 10 amps.
However, most OEMs will sell a specific home charging kit with the vehicle, which avoids the not fit for purpose BS1363 plug, and permits 16A charging (3.7kW vs 2.3kW). Obviously that's what they all base their charge times on, but then that's representative of how they think their customers will charge most of the time. If you buy a Tesla S that's what you'll get.
We had 10-off 3kW charge points installed in a multi-storey without needing any infrastructure changes. Clearly if/when EV uptake increases there will need to be some infrastructure improvements for workplace charging infrastructure, but seeing as the government/OLEV have just signed-off £500m for EV funding, it's fair to say that grants (such as the existing PiPs) are likely to be available to support this. I don't think even the green-minded Committee on Climate Change expect us ALL to be driving EVs to work (their optimistic utopia was something like 40% EV market penetration by 2030), so we won't all need a charge point there!
amstrange1 said:
I used to do ~65 miles of winter driving (i.e. PTC heater turned on, demist on) for 6-7 hours worth of charging through a BS1363 3-pin 13A plug when racking up validation miles on an EV I worked on. Charger efficiency was >90%, though you'd waste a bit more energy than that if it was significantly below freezing and battery heating was required - but the losses were nowhere near the 25% you claim in UK ambients.
I did say it was a guesstimate... <grin>amstrange1 said:
Most OEMs will de-rate to 10A charge current through a BS1363 plug, but it's not because the fuse pops at 13A - it's due to issues with plug/socket compatibility and heat dissipation. Several of the OEMs found various combinations of plug/socket used at 13A ended up melting around the live pin after a few hours - despite all tested parts being compliant with the British Standard. If you talk to BEAMA today they'll still tell you that 13A continuous is fine through a BS1363 plug, but the automotive industry doesn't agree!
I can well believe that.amstrange1 said:
I can't find any vehicle efficiency figures for the Tesla S on their website
I was going by the EPA figures earlier - 265m/85kWh, 208m/60kWh - which is a bit over 0.3kWh/mileamstrange1 said:
but VW's e-Up!
It's very niche of VW to aim something like that at the Yorkshire market specifically...amstrange1 said:
is 11.7kWh/100km - or 0.19kWh/mile.
Feels about right, given the different sizes. It's roughly the diesel mpg ratio you'd expect.amstrange1 said:
If you assume a pessimistic 85% charging efficiency that gives you 0.22kWh/mile, so to do 100 miles we need 22kWh which at 10A @ 230V we can do in about 9.5 hours.
Yup.amstrange1 said:
Either way, my 10 hours for 100 miles isn't exactly ridiculous, even if a Tesla S might need a bit longer at 10 amps.
Agreed.amstrange1 said:
We had 10-off 3kW charge points installed in a multi-storey without needing any infrastructure changes. Clearly if/when EV uptake increases there will need to be some infrastructure improvements for workplace charging infrastructure, but seeing as the government/OLEV have just signed-off £500m for EV funding, it's fair to say that grants (such as the existing PiPs) are likely to be available to support this. I don't think even the green-minded Committee on Climate Change expect us ALL to be driving EVs to work (their optimistic utopia was something like 40% EV market penetration by 2030), so we won't all need a charge point there!
And the power stations behind it all? We're already heading for a shortage of generation capacity in a year or two, at current <ba-doom-tish> usage levels. Start to ramp that up...Then there's the infrastructure needed to support banks of "80% in 30 min" fast chargers at m'way services...
I'm sure if the EV market takes off we'll be able to make enough electricity, we live in a capitalist society after all - if the demand is there... I grew up near 3 giant coal-fired power stations, one of which was decommissioned so that the other two could operate at high duty cycles (and efficiencies) and still easily meet demand. I understand from friends in that industry that mothballed stations are far from unusual, and am led to believe that the capacity could be there if we needed it.
Companies like EON also seem to be very pro-EV, EON especially pushing various "Smart Grid" concepts looking at using vehicle to grid connectivity to smooth out peaks in demand.
Most of the industry looks at EVs being part of the solution, but not the whole solution. I imagine even with greater EV market penetration most people doing long journeys will be in ICE vehicles, with a small minority of people doing the occasional long trip in their pure EV relying on a service station rapid charger.
Companies like EON also seem to be very pro-EV, EON especially pushing various "Smart Grid" concepts looking at using vehicle to grid connectivity to smooth out peaks in demand.
Most of the industry looks at EVs being part of the solution, but not the whole solution. I imagine even with greater EV market penetration most people doing long journeys will be in ICE vehicles, with a small minority of people doing the occasional long trip in their pure EV relying on a service station rapid charger.
TooMany2cvs said:
And the power stations behind it all?
Are to a large extent sitting around doing nothing all night.TooMany2cvs said:
We're already heading for a shortage of generation capacity in a year or two, at current <ba-doom-tish> usage levels. Start to ramp that up...
Not really. We may be heading for a shortage of peak capacity, specifically during early evenings during prolonged winter high pressure systems when the wind isn't blowing and it's very cold. Off peak capacity - overnight, middle of the day - is not a constraint.TooMany2cvs said:
Lowtimer said:
Not really. We may be heading for a shortage of peak capacity, specifically during early evenings...
...when people are freshly in from work, and have just plugged their car in...If they need to plug their car in to charge it all day then they have bought the wrong car
In the future
The car talks to the office, the car looks at the owners diary, works out the amount of power it will need to get home and any meetings coming up. Then once that is calculated it feeds power into the building to iron out any peaks. Then charges until it is the suffiecent plus a safety measure needed to get home.
The car gets home and is plugged into the house where it powers the house for the evening before recharging overnight while the powerfully built director sleeps soundly in his 28 floor flat
Edited by McWigglebum4th on Friday 20th December 09:02
thatdude said:
Hmmm, now the sums are adding up, perhaps it's not really a viable option for longer journeys
Still, if I had a shorter commute...
Something to daydream about when laying awake at 3 am in the morning
Remember though that this is Tesla's first attempt at an "everyday car". - If they've done this well right off the bat, what's the next model, or the model after going to be like? Battery tech is improving massively at the moment so I don't think it'll be too long until the car's endurance exceeds that of a human driver…whether the national grid can keep up though is another matter.Still, if I had a shorter commute...
Something to daydream about when laying awake at 3 am in the morning
Clivey said:
Remember though that this is Tesla's first attempt at an "everyday car". - If they've done this well right off the bat, what's the next model, or the model after going to be like?
And this is why I asked the original question. How, exactly, can a bunch of newbies manage to do something apparently so damn good for so little money (relatively speaking)? What is EVERY other manufacturer doing so badly wrong, some to the point of bankruptcy because they don't think they can afford to develop new models?Interesting though all the diversion into the finances and charge rates etc has been, we're no nearer answering that question...
Exactly, it was always their business plan to start at the top of the price range and work down as the battery technology became more affordable.
An expensive, exclusive sports car in the roadster
>Battery technology improves leading to
An executive saloon and luxury SUV in the models S and X
>Battery technology improves leading to
A compact prestige saloon in the Model E, due to be unveiled in a years time and sold in 2016.
It's a very interesting and exciting time for them. Also, fantastically they have made it clear that the cars won't have a Tesla 'face' like Audi, BMW et al. The compact saloon will look quite different.
An expensive, exclusive sports car in the roadster
>Battery technology improves leading to
An executive saloon and luxury SUV in the models S and X
>Battery technology improves leading to
A compact prestige saloon in the Model E, due to be unveiled in a years time and sold in 2016.
It's a very interesting and exciting time for them. Also, fantastically they have made it clear that the cars won't have a Tesla 'face' like Audi, BMW et al. The compact saloon will look quite different.
TooMany2cvs said:
And this is why I asked the original question. How, exactly, can a bunch of newbies manage to do something apparently so damn good for so little money (relatively speaking)? What is EVERY other manufacturer doing so badly wrong, some to the point of bankruptcy because they don't think they can afford to develop new models?
Interesting though all the diversion into the finances and charge rates etc has been, we're no nearer answering that question...
My guess is because of history. They don't have any management bullsInteresting though all the diversion into the finances and charge rates etc has been, we're no nearer answering that question...
t and preconceptions tying them down. No weight of expectation or need to satisfy the existing 'Chevy' or 'Ford' customers. So they have built a car and production method to produce that from scratch in the leanest most efficient way they can by looking forward not back. Technically, the hardware is much simpler than an ICE car, far fewer large castings, forgings and stamping a required.
I think in the most simplistic terms it comes down to the fact that the established industry players either fear or do not value disruptive innovation whereas to a start-up like Tesla it is meat and drink.
Just look at how the industry mobilised to deride hybrids when Toyota took a punt on the technology - and how they are scrabbling to catch up now.
Just look at how the industry mobilised to deride hybrids when Toyota took a punt on the technology - and how they are scrabbling to catch up now.
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