Tesla S - or - Why can't everybody else...?
Discussion
AnotherClarkey said:
I think in the most simplistic terms it comes down to the fact that the established industry players either fear or do not value disruptive innovation
No, I'm not talking about the fact it's a big electric car. That's the "disruptive innovation" bit. I'm talking purely about the basic engineering. The platform/suspension/NVH etc.TooMany2cvs said:
No, I'm not talking about the fact it's a big electric car. That's the "disruptive innovation" bit. I'm talking purely about the basic engineering. The platform/suspension/NVH etc.
I think (and Max Torque has made the point more eloquently elsewhere) that in many respects it is simply easier and less costly to engineer an electric car.Like others, I suspect Tesla have been able to attract some of the best engineers in the industry purely by offering the chance to work for an Elon Musk headed startup in the relatively early stages. It must look very attractive compared to the wobbly fortunes of GM or Ford and once they're there it must be very motivating to expect you're going to beat the established competition.
It's still incredible though and I can't wait to see how the other manufacturers react, I hope it will ignite a big wave of innovation and optimism.
It's still incredible though and I can't wait to see how the other manufacturers react, I hope it will ignite a big wave of innovation and optimism.
McWigglebum4th said:
TooMany2cvs said:
Lowtimer said:
Not really. We may be heading for a shortage of peak capacity, specifically during early evenings...
...when people are freshly in from work, and have just plugged their car in...If they need to plug their car in to charge it all day then they have bought the wrong car
In the future
The car talks to the office, the car looks at the owners diary, works out the amount of power it will need to get home and any meetings coming up. Then once that is calculated it feeds power into the building to iron out any peaks. Then charges until it is the suffiecent plus a safety measure needed to get home.
The car gets home and is plugged into the house where it powers the house for the evening before recharging overnight while the powerfully built director sleeps soundly in his 28 floor flat
Edited by McWigglebum4th on Friday 20th December 09:02
TooMany2cvs said:
thatdude said:
What is the distance one could realistically travel on a full chage (given use of radio, lights, air-con / heater, heated seats etc etc etc etc)?
The official US EPA range for the 85kWh battery pack is 265 miles, or 208 miles from 60kWh.That'll bear roughly the same resemblance to "real world" figures as any official figures ever do.
AnotherClarkey said:
I think in the most simplistic terms it comes down to the fact that the established industry players either fear or do not value disruptive innovation whereas to a start-up like Tesla it is meat and drink.
Just look at how the industry mobilised to deride hybrids when Toyota took a punt on the technology - and how they are scrabbling to catch up now.
I think it's embedded R&D. Years and years of developing CDI, ECUs, ABS, high pressure fuel rails, direct injection etc etc . To throw that away and move to electric is too much of a step. Because you are leaving your old tech behind. All the manufacturers need to read the short business book, "Who Moved My Cheese?". Basically a parable if you leave it too late, you are history. Aka Kodak. A good example of someone spotting the change is Branson selling Our Price to HMV long before it was under threat.Just look at how the industry mobilised to deride hybrids when Toyota took a punt on the technology - and how they are scrabbling to catch up now.
IF the mainstream manufacturers don't get their product sorted, they'll be out the game. I can imagine the key difference is sitting around a board room trying to get 12 or 20 people to take a risk on developing a new EV is nigh on impossible. But get someone like Musk, who basically says "I want to start an EV company". and there's the difference.
Nissan is the bravest by far as they don't have the prestige BMW has. But I think they jumped the gun. I always though EVs should start a the luxury end where its a product with "look what I've got that you can't afford". Create desire, envy, and then bring out the mass market models. People don't mind the fact that a Koenisgseggg can't transport 4 people and their luggage as it's a niche car. Nor that it's hundreds of thousands. I was kind of hopping mad someone didn't build a £300,000 200mph 200 mile range EV before now. Just becuase they could. That's what cars like the Veryon are for.
However, Telsa got it right. Outsource what you don't know and make a small lotus platform car to sell to tech geek "petrolheads", allwoing you to develop what will be your core business - electric drivelines. Establish yourself as credible and then start the real business of getting to volume by outsmarting the established players. What is known as a market shaker not just a market maker.
As well as the EV being cheaper to develop than ICE, it's also worth considering that the established OEMs have decades of automotive experience - all leading to rigid design processes requiring lots of expensive test and validation.
When you're a new player, you don't have that baggage and can take more of a risk. If the Tesla EVs turn out to be horrifically unreliable or unsafe, they have only damaged a new brand - whereas if Nissan do the same with the Leaf there's much more at stake.
When you're a new player, you don't have that baggage and can take more of a risk. If the Tesla EVs turn out to be horrifically unreliable or unsafe, they have only damaged a new brand - whereas if Nissan do the same with the Leaf there's much more at stake.
Interesting blog here regarding the battery swap technology. It suggests that Tesla may have been a bit naughty. The writer must either be pretty sure of his facts, have great lawyers or is just plain stupid to casually throw around words like 'hoax', 'fraud' and 'scam'.
http://doubtingisthinking.blogspot.com.es/2013_12_...
http://doubtingisthinking.blogspot.com.es/2013_12_...
If you lived near a supercharger network and could abuse the free electricity. Just how much money could you make over a diesel/petrol as a Mini cab/ chauffeur driver in the UK? I thought about starting my own chauffeur company in the US as I live near a lot of free electricity hubs and a supercharger station near an airport. Alas, with cheap petrol it doesn't offset the cost of the car. Maybe the Model E will allow my business plan to work tho.
According too Tesla's website. If you did 40000 miles a year and paid nothing for electricity at 9.71 a gallon(us gallon) fuel @ 40 mpg (US 50ish UK)you'd save $-798 a month. Seems like an interesting idea for you in the UK if you can afford to buy the car and like driving a lot.
According too Tesla's website. If you did 40000 miles a year and paid nothing for electricity at 9.71 a gallon(us gallon) fuel @ 40 mpg (US 50ish UK)you'd save $-798 a month. Seems like an interesting idea for you in the UK if you can afford to buy the car and like driving a lot.
jurbie said:
Interesting blog here regarding the battery swap technology. It suggests that Tesla may have been a bit naughty. The writer must either be pretty sure of his facts, have great lawyers or is just plain stupid to casually throw around words like 'hoax', 'fraud' and 'scam'.
http://doubtingisthinking.blogspot.com.es/2013_12_...
http://doubtingisthinking.blogspot.com.es/2013_12_...
TooMany2cvs said:
Clivey said:
Remember though that this is Tesla's first attempt at an "everyday car". - If they've done this well right off the bat, what's the next model, or the model after going to be like?
And this is why I asked the original question. How, exactly, can a bunch of newbies manage to do something apparently so damn good for so little money (relatively speaking)? What is EVERY other manufacturer doing so badly wrong, some to the point of bankruptcy because they don't think they can afford to develop new models?Interesting though all the diversion into the finances and charge rates etc has been, we're no nearer answering that question...
1) The established manufacturers didn't need to make EV's work - customers would just buy the non-EV, as long as all the manufacturers remained in lock step only improving slowly. Tesla don't have non-EV's so need to make the cars good enough to sell.
2) The larger a company gets the more risk averse it becomes - as a middle management type in a large company your ability to get promoted is low, but your ability to take the fall for a failed project is high, so you avoid risk. Tesla acted like a start up - design what they thought was the right product then put it on sale. You just know the big manufacturers will have had a focus group to approve the door handle shape.
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