Tesla Autopilot - driven

[chandrew]

So, today I 'drove' a 85D with Autopilot. It was a relatively brief journey - about 5 miles on a busy-ish motorway doing between 110 - 120 km/h.

How's it like? Well think back to when you first tried to ride your bike without the hands on the handlebars - it's a bit like that. A bit scary and disconcerting but also quite amazing. There was one time where we were passing a lorry and with an S class passing us on the other side - so 3 wide vehicles across a normal width motorway, going round a gentle bend. The side sensors on the screen ahead were going orange and I had my hands hovering the wheel but it managed fine.

I found that the car didn't always hold true to the centre of the lane. At one time we passed a vehicle and it seemed to have moved out a bit to give it more space. I might have been imagining it. At another time when going round a bend it seemed to be doing a series of small turns instead of holding one turn. This felt like it was drifting across the lane.

At one point I indicated to move lane and it changed immediately, giving the car I was pulling behind little space. I'm not sure whether this was a setting but it was closer than I would have done. I also like the indicators to flash a few times before starting the move.

I'm not sure I'd use the Autopilot if I had it. Given you still have to concentrate on the road it doesn't seem to add any value. It's impressive but I'm not sure it adds anything.

The adaptive cruise control, reading the road signs and warning when you get close to a line were more useful I felt.

Apart from that the 85D felt quicker and lighter on it's feet than the P85 that I had driven a year ago. We took it up a twisty road and down a series of narrow hairpins and it felt smaller in that setting than it is. The quality of the interior is a step ahead, the new visuals are much less fussy and the sat nav ahead is a much better visualisation.

Trying not to do the man maths at the moment, whereas when I drove the P85 I felt a bit disappointed. I guess the lesson is leave buying one as late as you can as they're certainly improving.

[JonV8V]

I think the problem with your conclusion is there will always be a new thing you might want. It's not helped with long delivery times. I thought twice about ordering autopilot (company car so no realistic option to enable later) as it only only had active cruise, I'm still waiting fir delivery and yet extra these features are being turned on.

They'll probably announce head up display which would be a great aid next week.

[chandrew]

Good points. I think what I was getting at was that the quality of materials etc had taken a big step on in the one year since I last drove one.

As to the delivery time, I'm not sure what the state is in the UK, but here in Switzerland they have a decent range of stock cars. I'm seriously considering getting one of the demonstrators, partly because of the availability and partly because it's the only way of getting any sort of discount. They have one in my preferred colour scheme. I probably wouldn't have specced the 21" wheels or interior luxury pack it has but with the discount I'm not having to pay anything extra for them.

[oop north]

The delivery times look a lot better than a year ago. Interesting the interior quality has gone up - maybe I should have another look.

I am not sure I would spend the extra 2100 up front for the autopilot etc (not that I am clear what else is included) as the after purchase cost of 2500 is not so much more that you'd regret risking not having it.

[anonymous-user]

Give me a bit of help here. I saw the S on some TV show the other night and it look quite interesting. But I've just specced up, as near as I can a similar sort of thing to my 530D.

As near as I can and I don't think it will be as high a spec as my BMW, which has adaptive ride, full comfort pack, top sound system, SatNav and climate, it would appear that an 85S might cost me £15-£20K more than the BMW.

I do around 12000 miles a year and my fuel cost is about £1500. I have to tax the car every year of course but it still seems to be maybe a 10 year break even.

So it seems unlikely that there would be an economic case for a Tesla, to say the least, not to mention the difficulty of making a trip or two to the alps every year, which I can do on a tankful in the BMW, without having to stop every couple of hours.

Am I right or have I got this all wrong?

[gangzoom]

REALIST123 said:

Give me a bit of help here. I saw the S on some TV show the other night and it look quite interesting. But I've just specced up, as near as I can a similar sort of thing to my 530D.

As near as I can and I don't think it will be as high a spec as my BMW, which has adaptive ride, full comfort pack, top sound system, SatNav and climate, it would appear that an 85S might cost me £15-£20K more than the BMW.

I do around 12000 miles a year and my fuel cost is about £1500. I have to tax the car every year of course but it still seems to be maybe a 10 year break even.

So it seems unlikely that there would be an economic case for a Tesla, to say the least, not to mention the difficulty of making a trip or two to the alps every year, which I can do on a tankful in the BMW, without having to stop every couple of hours.

Am I right or have I got this all wrong?

I'm not sure what BMW your driving but 535d, which has the same power/ 0-60 time as Tesla 70S starts at £48K versus £50K.

Tesla has more than enough Supercharger points to get you to the Alps every year....oh and they are FREE to use.

Finally you would have to PAY me to consider putting up with a driving a diesel 1000 miles + for 'pleasure', I put up with one daily for 18 months out due to necessity (should have switched to EVs sooner), but I would never take one on a holiday drive.

https://youtu.be/ezJ_bBhLFco

[anonymous-user]

gangzoom said:

REALIST123 said:

Give me a bit of help here. I saw the S on some TV show the other night and it look quite interesting. But I've just specced up, as near as I can a similar sort of thing to my 530D.

As near as I can and I don't think it will be as high a spec as my BMW, which has adaptive ride, full comfort pack, top sound system, SatNav and climate, it would appear that an 85S might cost me £15-£20K more than the BMW.

I do around 12000 miles a year and my fuel cost is about £1500. I have to tax the car every year of course but it still seems to be maybe a 10 year break even.

So it seems unlikely that there would be an economic case for a Tesla, to say the least, not to mention the difficulty of making a trip or two to the alps every year, which I can do on a tankful in the BMW, without having to stop every couple of hours.

Am I right or have I got this all wrong?

I'm not sure what BMW your driving but 535d, which has the same power/ 0-60 time as Tesla 70S starts at £48K versus £50K.

Tesla has more than enough Supercharger points to get you to the Alps every year....oh and they are FREE to use.

Finally you would have to PAY me to consider putting up with a driving a diesel 1000 miles + for 'pleasure', I put up with one daily for 18 months out due to necessity (should have switched to EVs sooner), but I would never take one on a holiday drive.

https://youtu.be/ezJ_bBhLFco

Well it's a 530D, as I said, but I looked at the 85 which has a more acceptable range. That started at around £60K and ended up nearer £70K compared with less than £50K for a 530 with arguably a better level of equipment. (BMW list prices aren't a good indicator of what you might actually pay).

Not sure what diesel you've been driving but the 530 is a very good long distance car. There's no significant engine noise at any reasonable cruising speed, it's a comfortable ride. I don't drive it 'for pleasure', it's just a comfortable way to travel long distances. Can't see what a tesla would give me in that respect. (I have other cars for fun, and I can't see what additional 'pleasure' a Tesla would give over a 5 series, that's not what I'm looking for)

It's OK getting 'free' fuel but if I'm paying £20K or more extra for the car, it's not really that much of an advantage.

So am I to understand that there is no economic case for a privately owned Tesla yet?

[adamfawsitt]

I would say you are right - http://teslapedia.org/model-s/tesla-driver/total-c...

[chandrew]

Obviously the Tesla isn't going to be right for every use case but we obviously looked at a 5 series (touring) during our search. I'm in Switzerland where we don't get any incentives to run electric cars.

We're doing quite a few long trips a year which puts our total mileage at about 25,000 km a year. In the last fortnight I've done a return trip from Zurich to Cumbria for example.

The closest BMW to the 85D was the m550d having decent acceleration and AWD. I personally don't like diesels but do like BMWs and didn't really need such a big car - the last one on my list was a Alpina B3 Biturbo xDrive.

In terms of my experiences with the Tesla I'd say my take on the advantages are:

• We save a lot in fuel bills. I've been doing the sums on a monthly basis and for us it was probably equivalent to about £10k over 4 years. Obviously you're doing less and driving a more economical car than i'm used to or probably would have bought.

• Servicing is cheaper as the car is mechanically very simple.

• The Tesla is a higher spec as standard. There aren't many options on the Tesla and every one is an expensive option on a BMW. You could get a very good spec Tesla with just the addition of the metallic paint & leather. The autopilot is a software upgrade so you could even decide on that later as mentioned above. When you've used the Tesla's internet stereo / sat nav etc everything else feels a bit creaky. It's like going from an iPhone 6s Plus to an iPhone 3. The tesla also gets upgraded like the iPhone.

• The Tesla is bigger inside. Storage space is more closely equivalent to an E class estate. The totally flat rear floor is more comfortable if you're using all 3 seats though the sloping roof means headroom isn't so good. I'm over 6 foot and it's OK but not great.

• It's vastly quieter than a diesel or petrol. At motorway speed you get some tyre noise but even that's been reduced over the last year as they've upgraded sound deadening material.

• It's a lot easier to make fast, smooth progress. It's totally linear and there are no gears that need changing. Go to overtake and a conventional car needs to change gear, spin up the engine etc. In the real world this makes it feel faster than it is.

Here in Switzerland the model S is selling in similar numbers to the E class (all body styles, all engines) and as said there are little in the way of incentives. They are holding their values better than the equivalent german cars.

[JonV8V]

What's the financial case for a BMW over a ford mondeo or a vw Passat or a Volvo or a Honda or a...? Why is it only about money anyway?

[gangzoom]

REALIST123 said:

Not sure what diesel you've been driving but the 530 is a very good long distance car.

I try not to drive any diesels for any reason. My last car was a 335i, and to be quite honest, I now drive a Nissan Leaf - The EV with <100 mile range and 0-60 time of 10 seconds. But to be quite honest I wouldn't have the 335i back now even if you paid me. EVs are the future, and personally I rather experience the future rather than technology that belong on a farm.

As others have said, if money if your primary motivation, a £500 Micra will get you from A to B just as well as your 530D

I will be ordering a Model S, but need to save up a few more £, hence currently driving the Leaf. Personally I cannot wait to drop £60k on a 70D....Just need to wait another 16 months before my Leaf PCP contract finishes

Edited by gangzoom on Sunday 25th October 08:27

[anonymous-user]

JonV8V said:

What's the financial case for a BMW over a ford mondeo or a vw Passat or a Volvo or a Honda or a...? Why is it only about money anyway?

It's not just about money, it's about perceived value for money. IMO I get a LOT more from a 5 series than I would from any of the brands you mention, (the 530 replaced a Passat CC). Better performance, ride and handling , build quality, quieter. That justifies the extra cost for me.

I'm trying g to find out why a tesla would be worth £20K more than the 5 series.

[gangzoom]

^^ One is powered by technology that is outdated/the past and the other is the future. What other reasons do you need??

New technology has always had an 'early adopter' higher price tag. If you don't want to pay it, than wait another 5 years for prices to come down. But life if short, so if you can afford it, why wait??

Edited by gangzoom on Sunday 25th October 08:33

[anonymous-user]

chandrew said:

Obviously the Tesla isn't going to be right for every use case but we obviously looked at a 5 series (touring) during our search. I'm in Switzerland where we don't get any incentives to run electric cars.

We're doing quite a few long trips a year which puts our total mileage at about 25,000 km a year. In the last fortnight I've done a return trip from Zurich to Cumbria for example.

The closest BMW to the 85D was the m550d having decent acceleration and AWD. I personally don't like diesels but do like BMWs and didn't really need such a big car - the last one on my list was a Alpina B3 Biturbo xDrive.

In terms of my experiences with the Tesla I'd say my take on the advantages are:

• We save a lot in fuel bills. I've been doing the sums on a monthly basis and for us it was probably equivalent to about £10k over 4 years. Obviously you're doing less and driving a more economical car than i'm used to or probably would have bought.

• Servicing is cheaper as the car is mechanically very simple.

• The Tesla is a higher spec as standard. There aren't many options on the Tesla and every one is an expensive option on a BMW. You could get a very good spec Tesla with just the addition of the metallic paint & leather. The autopilot is a software upgrade so you could even decide on that later as mentioned above. When you've used the Tesla's internet stereo / sat nav etc everything else feels a bit creaky. It's like going from an iPhone 6s Plus to an iPhone 3. The tesla also gets upgraded like the iPhone.

• The Tesla is bigger inside. Storage space is more closely equivalent to an E class estate. The totally flat rear floor is more comfortable if you're using all 3 seats though the sloping roof means headroom isn't so good. I'm over 6 foot and it's OK but not great.

• It's vastly quieter than a diesel or petrol. At motorway speed you get some tyre noise but even that's been reduced over the last year as they've upgraded sound deadening material.

• It's a lot easier to make fast, smooth progress. It's totally linear and there are no gears that need changing. Go to overtake and a conventional car needs to change gear, spin up the engine etc. In the real world this makes it feel faster than it is.

Here in Switzerland the model S is selling in similar numbers to the E class (all body styles, all engines) and as said there are little in the way of incentives. They are holding their values better than the equivalent german cars.

Thanks for that, it's interesting and I think I shall try to arrange a test.

Having said that, some of your points don't count too much for me. I don't think I'd ever go for a 550, the 530 is more than adequate performance for me and my needs for this car. The Tesla may be a higher standard spec but my comparison is with quite a highly specced 5 series.

My maintenance is less than £100 a year over the first 5 years, though I won't keep it that long. Would a Tesla be less than that?

I really can't imagine the Tesla being vastly quieter other than at lower speeds but I will look forward to checking that out!

[anonymous-user]

gangzoom said:

REALIST123 said:

Not sure what diesel you've been driving but the 530 is a very good long distance car.

I try not to drive any diesels for any reason. My last car was a 335i, and to be quite honest, I now drive a Nissan Leaf - The EV with <100 mile range and 0-60 time of 10 seconds. But to be quite honest I wouldn't have the 335i back now even if you paid me. EVs are the future, and personally I rather experience the future rather than technology that belong on a farm.

As others have said, if money if your primary motivation, a £500 Micra will get you from A to B just as well as your 530D

I will be ordering a Model S, but need to save up a few more £, hence currently driving the Leaf. Personally I cannot wait to drop £60k on a 70D....Just need to wait another 16 months before my Leaf PCP contract finishes

Edited by anonymous-user on Sunday 25th October 08:27

In all honesty it's hard to take you seriously. You seem to have an irrational hatred of the diesel.

I suspect your stance is more to do with justifying your current mode of transport to yourself than anything else.

[JonV8V]

REALIST123 said:

JonV8V said:

What's the financial case for a BMW over a ford mondeo or a vw Passat or a Volvo or a Honda or a...? Why is it only about money anyway?

It's not just about money, it's about perceived value for money. IMO I get a LOT more from a 5 series than I would from any of the brands you mention, (the 530 replaced a Passat CC). Better performance, ride and handling , build quality, quieter. That justifies the extra cost for me.

I'm trying g to find out why a tesla would be worth £20K more than the 5 series.

The tesla has better performance in 85D mode than all but an 550 or M5 and it runs them close

The ride and handling are good. The weight is all very low down the 4 wheel drive gives a great deal of traction. The weight distribution is also good in the tesla. I've also had nothing but trouble with BMW wheels for the last 5 or 6 years.. The low profile tyres on our roads are unforgiving (and thus has nothing to do with RFT, my 6 is currently on Mich PSS. You'll track a 5 quicker than a tesla because of the way electric works at a sustained level. It would be like a 530d not being able to be drive for a prolonged way that only returns 20mpg. But then an 85D is regularly tested hitting 60 in less than 4s and can do 155mph

Build quality - debatable. Interior wise, next gen seats are better than any BMW seats I've sat in and alcantara headlining is std. It's also bigger inside.

Quieter - however quiet a 5 is its not going to be quieter than a 6 and a tesla is quieter than my 6

Tech.. The only thing tesla doesn't have that I might miss is head up display. It has speed limit as standard, and you can set a relative warning in beep at 10% over the limit. Comfort access is std. Soft close doors aren't an option either but I'm not overly fussed by that. But then autopilot is way beyond what anything but the new 7 gets close to.

They're different. Very different cars.

[anonymous-user]

JonV8V said:

REALIST123 said:

JonV8V said:

What's the financial case for a BMW over a ford mondeo or a vw Passat or a Volvo or a Honda or a...? Why is it only about money anyway?

It's not just about money, it's about perceived value for money. IMO I get a LOT more from a 5 series than I would from any of the brands you mention, (the 530 replaced a Passat CC). Better performance, ride and handling , build quality, quieter. That justifies the extra cost for me.

I'm trying g to find out why a tesla would be worth £20K more than the 5 series.

The tesla has better performance in 85D mode than all but an 550 or M5 and it runs them close

The ride and handling are good. The weight is all very low down the 4 wheel drive gives a great deal of traction. The weight distribution is also good in the tesla. I've also had nothing but trouble with BMW wheels for the last 5 or 6 years.. The low profile tyres on our roads are unforgiving (and thus has nothing to do with RFT, my 6 is currently on Mich PSS. You'll track a 5 quicker than a tesla because of the way electric works at a sustained level. It would be like a 530d not being able to be drive for a prolonged way that only returns 20mpg. But then an 85D is regularly tested hitting 60 in less than 4s and can do 155mph

Build quality - debatable. Interior wise, next gen seats are better than any BMW seats I've sat in and alcantara headlining is std. It's also bigger inside.

Quieter - however quiet a 5 is its not going to be quieter than a 6 and a tesla is quieter than my 6

Tech.. The only thing tesla doesn't have that I might miss is head up display. It has speed limit as standard, and you can set a relative warning in beep at 10% over the limit. Comfort access is std. Soft close doors aren't an option either but I'm not overly fussed by that. But then autopilot is way beyond what anything but the new 7 gets close to.

They're different. Very different cars.

You're last sentence is the most telling and I will try a Tesla to make my own mind up. I will still have to be convinced that the cost/benefit works for me. So far all I've gleaned is that it will probably be quieter and it will certainly be different. Is that worth £20K?

Again, some of the points aren't relevant to me. I specced up a Tesla with 2WD, never needed 4WD before and can't see why I would in the future. It still had the £20K price difference, even with the £4100 taken off.

I have no doubts about the performance being as good, especially for my needs. I wouldn't dream of putting a 5 series on a track, I have a much better suited car for that!

I'm aware of the wheel problem but haven't suffered from it. Again this is my everyday, cruising barge and I deliberately specced 18" wheels with a reasonably sized tyre, plus a set of 17" winters. They improve both the ride and chances of not suffering rim damage. To be fair, in the two years I've owned it the 5 series has been faultless.

By the way, my comments about build quality weren't in comparison to a Tesla, which I haven't driven. They were related to the earlier post about other brands.

Interestingly, I can't help but draw a comparison with this choice and my decision to install a GS Heat Pump 3 years ago. That project cost me about £40K, including the energy saving upgrades to the house. It saves me about £1000 each year in energy bills, and I will get about half of the outlay back under the RHI scheme. So maybe a 20 year payback, when it will all need doing again! However, our house is a much. much better place to live in than it was...............

[gangzoom]

REALIST123 said:

In all honesty it's hard to take you seriously. You seem to have an irrational hatred of the diesel.

I suspect your stance is more to do with justifying your current mode of transport to yourself than anything else.

It's not just diesels I have a rational hatred for, its any car with an internal combustion engine in it....I'm trying my best to persuade my wife to get rid of her Lexus Hybrid for a Model S. But the fact the Lexus was bought brand new to the exact colour/spec she wanted, and we had to wait 5 months to get hold of it is making things difficult - and the £15K of deprecation we would loss by selling so soon after buying.

I don't need to justify anything to myself, after living with an EV for 6 months, I'm just wish I had made the jump 12 months earlier, I honestly don't understand why anyone who can afford a Model S would pick an internal combustion powered alternative. You mentioned about getting a heat pump for you house, I suspect if you lived with an EV for a week your soon feel the same way about the EV as your day to day transport .

Don't take my word for it, Nissan + BMW do extended 24hr+ test drives, I've driven a Leaf/Zoe/i3/Tesla P85D - and regardless of price/brand, they all offer the same silky smooth EV experience. For day to day commuting they are 100% better than ANY internal combustion powered car I've ever driven at any price point. With-in 200 meters of my first EV driving experience in a Leaf I was convinced to sign on the dotted line for one the same day, and get rid of my 335i - and no there was no sale man sitting in the passenger seat.

I compare it to back in 2007, at the time I had one of these...There was nothing wrong with it, and it followed a tested/trusted evolution of phone design.



Than I saw this thing.....and the rest as they say is history!!

Edited by gangzoom on Sunday 25th October 11:12

[chandrew]

Bringing it back to the original topic, the thought of the autopilot has been on my mind a lot since driving the car on Wednesday. It's such an unusual experience and one I'm not sure I like. I've always thought that steering feel was high up on my list (and had the usual suspects like a Lotus because of this) but there is really no steering feel when your hands aren't on the wheel.

Certainly this is the future (or rather a stepping stone to the fully autonomous future). Change, whether that is autonomous cars or even the rapid rise of car pooling is going to make fundamental changes to the cars that are on our roads and everything associated with it.

Within several months Tesla will probably have good enough data to determine whether, and to what extent Autopilot is safer than not having Autopilot. This sort of data is what will be required to persuade regulators that it's right for our roads. Insurers will take note and price accordingly. I suspect that when the change comes it will sweep the industry faster than many realise.

I feel very lucky to be able to try one of the first cars in Europe with autopilot. Tesla told me it was the first in Switzerland which is one of their major markets. I've decided that there are situations, probably the same situations where I'd use cruise control anyway, where it would probably make driving more relaxing. I'd want the adaptive cruise control anyway and it costs about the same as those systems with other cars. My guess is that as I started to trust it more I'd use it more and more.

Touch wood I should be able to report back soon.

[anonymous-user]

gangzoom said:

REALIST123 said:

In all honesty it's hard to take you seriously. You seem to have an irrational hatred of the diesel.

I suspect your stance is more to do with justifying your current mode of transport to yourself than anything else.

It's not just diesels I have a rational hatred for, its any car with an internal combustion engine in it....I'm trying my best to persuade my wife to get rid of her Lexus Hybrid for a Model S. But the fact the Lexus was bought brand new to the exact colour/spec she wanted, and we had to wait 5 months to get hold of it is making things difficult - and the £15K of deprecation we would loss by selling so soon after buying.

I don't need to justify anything to myself, after living with an EV for 6 months, I'm just wish I had made the jump 12 months earlier, I honestly don't understand why anyone who can afford a Model S would pick an internal combustion powered alternative. You mentioned about getting a heat pump for you house, I suspect if you lived with an EV for a week your soon feel the same way about the EV as your day to day transport .

Don't take my word for it, Nissan + BMW do extended 24hr+ test drives, I've driven a Leaf/Zoe/i3/Tesla P85D - and regardless of price/brand, they all offer the same silky smooth EV experience. For day to day commuting they are 100% better than ANY internal combustion powered car I've ever driven at any price point. With-in 200 meters of my first EV driving experience in a Leaf I was convinced to sign on the dotted line for one the same day, and get rid of my 335i - and no there was no sale man sitting in the passenger seat.

I compare it to back in 2007, at the time I had one of these...There was nothing wrong with it, and it followed a tested/trusted evolution of phone design.



Than I saw this thing.....and the rest as they say is history!!

Edited by anonymous-user on Sunday 25th October 11:12

OK, but I don't commute. I do travel locally but I also regularly travel from Norfolk to South Wales, the North of England, the Cotswolds and into Europe.

Other than the Tesla, none of the cars in your list would be big enough, or have enough performance or range for me. The S85 certainly would fit the bill but I still need to be convinced of its financial sense and capability.

Anyone know where in Norfolk I could try one or have one serviced? The Tesla website seems a little vague.

Also, what does one do if on a long run you pull in for a planned recharge and find the charging points OOS or in use?