690 miles in an electric car with a 18 months old :)

[croyde]

Nice write up OP.

What I don't understand that for the price, of which I could never spend on a car, the Teslas are all pretty ugly.

Proportions are all wrong. And I can't bear touchscreens in a car. Had one in my last car and I think it's a bloody stupid idea.

Also all that money would get you a nice car and fuel for years. Possibly the lifetime of the car and no money wasted on motorway services meals

Petrol engines have come on in leaps and bounds in terms of performance and economy.

Even my 5.0 litre V8 2016 Mustang would get 400 to a small tank if driven sensibly on a motorway.

Yes that's right. Over 37 mpg.

[RayTay]

croyde said:

Nice write up OP.

What I don't understand that for the price, of which I could never spend on a car, the Teslas are all pretty ugly.

Proportions are all wrong. And I can't bear touchscreens in a car. Had one in my last car and I think it's a bloody stupid idea.

Also all that money would get you a nice car and fuel for years. Possibly the lifetime of the car and no money wasted on motorway services meals

Petrol engines have come on in leaps and bounds in terms of performance and economy.

Even my 5.0 litre V8 2016 Mustang would get 400 to a small tank if driven sensibly on a motorway.

Yes that's right. Over 37 mpg.

I can usually smell astroturfers. Teslas are ugly? Wow! I have heard them be called many thing, but never ugly. Petrol engines have come on in leaps and bounds have they? 80% of the energy in the petrol tank is wasted and they still pour out toxic fumes. One Tesla has a 600 mile range.

Edited by RayTay on Sunday 10th December 11:15

[croyde]

Eye of the beholder and all that but I just don't think they look right.

They look like a cheap Chinese copy of a super saloon. IMHO of course.

The S is the best of the bunch but the X and the 3 just look wrong. Can't put my finger on it but just vast expanses of plastic looking metal and too high.

I appreciate that they are out there EV tech wise but it is as if they just didn't bother on the design side.

Maybe it's because it's sitting on a load of batteries.

Apologies as I read the thread but didn't realise it was an EV only forum. Thought I was in general gassing

Also petrol engines have come a long way, despite, if you say, that they lose/waste 80% of their energy.

My 2.5 in my 1997 BMW is old school. 170 bhp and only 29mpg on a run and down to 18mpg in London.

Seems there are many modern tiny petrol engines that can easily equal that power output and use a lot less fuel doing so. As pointed out in my first post, my big made this century V8 is better on fuel than my old BMW, despite being 2.5 times more powerful and a lot heavier.

Edited by croyde on Sunday 10th December 14:24

[TobyLerone]

EVLATECOMER said:

Ignore my username, you're right to a point that banger nomic cars are and will be cheaper than running an EV for a good while yet.

Your numbers though don't make sense, you forget the whacking cost of VED/RFL on your LS400 very year for a starter?

Also you talk about the train journey twice a week and how a 24KW Leaf would need two charges; etc. Then you say your comparison on the LS400 is over 6000 miles a year??

I'm a petrol head too and not solely an EV drum banger, but you clearly aren't using the LS400 for the journeys you take each week on a train either.

Ok, my comparison is flawed, but I'm not trying to compare apples-to-apples. I'm comparing £ for £. I can't buy a new Tesla P100, just as much as I can't buy a brand new (or nearly new) Audi A8 / Merc S Class / Lexus LS600 etc.

I can buy another barge tomorrow for the same cost as I bought mine. Large, luxurious, and cheap. There's a number of petrol and diesel alternatives too.

I forgot abut VED, but that's £240/year. It's not a huge expense, and doesn't really alter my calculations.

Mistake the first - I don't think I was clear enough. Most of my miles are long runs. I don't use the train at all, but I did look up the cost for a ticket and other expenses, for a comparison. It may work for some, but I'm too rural on both ends for it to be a useful alternative.

Mistake the second - I should have said I spend a long time away in foreign locations - I don't do that journey every month. It was late and I was tired. I'm sorry!

The fact is, for me, an EV just would not be practical. It's not to say that they aren't excellent at what they do - because they are. But extended journeys aren't the EV forté. Electric is the future. Whichever way you cut the cake - hydrogen / battery / some kind of capacitance storage... I dunno what the next decade in development holds.

I don't short commute. I walk to work. I don't use it to buy groceries - I can walk. I use it almost exclusively on long journeys.

For the same cost, when I can buy a similar level of comfort, I can charge at any petrol station, it takes <15mins to full, and I have a range of no less than 300 real world miles, it becomes an obvious choice.

But right now, in my price range, it simply does not make any sense.

[gangzoom]

croyde said:

Nice write up OP.

What I don't understand that for the price, of which I could never spend on a car, the Teslas are all pretty ugly.

Proportions are all wrong. And I can't bear touchscreens in a car. Had one in my last car and I think it's a bloody stupid idea.

Also all that money would get you a nice car and fuel for years. Possibly the lifetime of the car and no money wasted on motorway services meals

Petrol engines have come on in leaps and bounds in terms of performance and economy.

Even my 5.0 litre V8 2016 Mustang would get 400 to a small tank if driven sensibly on a motorway.

Yes that's right. Over 37 mpg.

My previous car was a 335i, tuned to about 380bhp at the wheels, motorway runs saw near 40mpg, combustion engines have come a long way since the Ford Model T.

The Tesla is by far the most expensive car we have ever owned, prior to switching over to EVs I had a XJR Supersport or F10 M5 on the short list, both would have cost less to buy than the Tesla and prettier, I fully understand that.

BUT I'm one for trying new things, life is short and money we earn is there to be used on things we enjoy. As soon as I drove my first EV (a Nissan Leaf) I knew all future cars would have to be EVs. Let's face it most of us on this forum don't have running costs of cars as our main focus, if we did than everyone would be driving Dacias .

As a self confessed car addict, I've wasted/spent far too much £££ on cars over the years, for me I don't see cars as simply cost per mile or £200/month to get from A to B. A car has to make me smile but at the same time it has to be good enough for all the family duties (such as taking everyone to Scotland). In the ideal world I would have a weekend toy, rather than a 2.5ton 6 seater SUV, but in the real world most of us have so little time free the thought of been able to disappear from the family for hours at the weekend for a blast in a 2 seater convertible is about as realistic as Trump brining peace to the Middle East!!! So the decision to go for the Tesla was a comprise between something that I would enjoy driving but also sensible for the growing family.

I love our Tesla more than any of my previous cars, no car is perfect, but this things isn't far off. I really couldn't careless about some of the rubbish I've seen posted/said about EVs. As far am concerned I've now done 11K miles since March with no change at all in my driving style/speed/range compared to my old combustion cars. As prices of longer range EVs fall, I hope more people will be able to discover there is life after the combustion engine, and it isn't half bad

• Not address on Google maps is not my home address, just a random drop point in Google. No idea who lives there or if they have an EV.

• WTF is all the stuff about LPG??!!! Didn't even know there are still LPG cars on the road.

Edited by gangzoom on Sunday 10th December 14:32

[Sheepshanks]

CanAm said:

tr3a said:

Do tell us about your 700 mile bladder.

Be fair

SimonYorkshire said:

I could drive 700 miles without anything but a toilet break, sure.

But OP had an 18mth old in the car, so you're going to need to stop every 2-3 hours anyway for a variety of reasons, not the lest of which is that's the limit of the time they're supposed to be in a car-seat.

Edited by Sheepshanks on Sunday 10th December 15:31

[TobyLerone]

gangzoom said:

My previous car was a 335i, tuned to about 380bhp at the wheels, motorway runs saw near 40mpg, combustion engines have come a long way since the Ford Model T.

The Tesla is by far the most expensive car we have ever owned, prior to switching over to EVs I had a XJR Supersport or F10 M5 on the short list, both would have cost less to buy than the Tesla and prettier, I fully understand that.

BUT I'm one for trying new things, life is short and money we earn is there to be used on things we enjoy. As soon as I drove my first EV (a Nissan Leaf) I knew all future cars would have to be EVs. Let's face it most of us on this forum don't have running costs of cars as our main focus, if we did than everyone would be driving Dacias .

As a self confessed car addict, I've wasted/spent far too much £££ on cars over the years, for me I don't see cars as simply cost per mile or £200/month to get from A to B. A car has to make me smile but at the same time it has to be good enough for all the family duties (such as taking everyone to Scotland). In the ideal world I would have a weekend toy, rather than a 2.5ton 6 seater SUV, but in the real world most of us have so little time free the thought of been able to disappear from the family for hours at the weekend for a blast in a 2 seater convertible is about as realistic as Trump brining peace to the Middle East!!! So the decision to go for the Tesla was a comprise between something that I would enjoy driving but also sensible for the growing family.

I love our Tesla more than any of my previous cars, no car is perfect, but this things isn't far off. I really couldn't careless about some of the rubbish I've seen posted/said about EVs. As far am concerned I've now done 11K miles since March with no change at all in my driving style/speed/range compared to my old combustion cars. As prices of longer range EVs fall, I hope more people will be able to discover there is life after the combustion engine, and it isn't half bad

• Not address on Google maps is not my home address, just a random drop point in Google. No idea who lives there or if they have an EV.

• WTF is all the stuff about LPG??!!! Didn't even know there are still LPG cars on the road.

Edited by gangzoom on Sunday 10th December 14:32

LPG (liquid petroleum gas) is a slightly cleaner fuel, which has far less duty. Even thirsty cars can average out 40-50 mpg equivalent on LPG. You need separate tank, which replace your spare tyre, or take up space in the boot. Conversions range in price from sub £1k to £3k, depending on complexity, fit, car, and supplier.

Great photo by the way - love the monochrome

It's good to see folk are up for trying something different. I'm a bit envious! The acceleration of the Tesla's is very very addictive. I don't think there's much that can keep up in the real world, whole not having a bunch of compromises. You can actually use it on the road too - it's obviously not appropriate on the road to be doing 100-150 mph pulls on the public road. But the traffic light grand prix, and that intoxicating acceleration / party piece.. very accessible.

[rscott]

TobyLerone said:

LPG (liquid petroleum gas) is a slightly cleaner fuel, which has far less duty. Even thirsty cars can average out 40-50 mpg equivalent on LPG. You need separate tank, which replace your spare tyre, or take up space in the boot. Conversions range in price from sub £1k to £3k, depending on complexity, fit, car, and supplier.

Great photo by the way - love the monochrome

It's good to see folk are up for trying something different. I'm a bit envious! The acceleration of the Tesla's is very very addictive. I don't think there's much that can keep up in the real world, whole not having a bunch of compromises. You can actually use it on the road too - it's obviously not appropriate on the road to be doing 100-150 mph pulls on the public road. But the traffic light grand prix, and that intoxicating acceleration / party piece.. very accessible.

A vehicle running on LPG gets about 80% of the mpg returned on petrol - it's less efficient, not more. However the fuel is just under half the cost of petrol so there is a cost saving. Bear in mind that less than 1 in 7 filling stations have LPG now, so it's worth checking if it's available on your regular routes before investing in a conversion. Its not practical for me as my nearest LPG station is a 10 miles away in a direction I rarely go.

[SimonYorkshire]

rscott said:

TobyLerone said:

LPG (liquid petroleum gas) is a slightly cleaner fuel, which has far less duty. Even thirsty cars can average out 40-50 mpg equivalent on LPG. You need separate tank, which replace your spare tyre, or take up space in the boot. Conversions range in price from sub £1k to £3k, depending on complexity, fit, car, and supplier.

Great photo by the way - love the monochrome

It's good to see folk are up for trying something different. I'm a bit envious! The acceleration of the Tesla's is very very addictive. I don't think there's much that can keep up in the real world, whole not having a bunch of compromises. You can actually use it on the road too - it's obviously not appropriate on the road to be doing 100-150 mph pulls on the public road. But the traffic light grand prix, and that intoxicating acceleration / party piece.. very accessible.

A vehicle running on LPG gets about 80% of the mpg returned on petrol - it's less efficient, not more. However the fuel is just under half the cost of petrol so there is a cost saving. Bear in mind that less than 1 in 7 filling stations have LPG now, so it's worth checking if it's available on your regular routes before investing in a conversion. Its not practical for me as my nearest LPG station is a 10 miles away in a direction I rarely go.

Around 1 in 7 forecourts have LPG and that's been the situation for a long time. In addition most bottled gas (Calor, Flogas, etc) depots have autogas refuelling facilities (plenty such depots about) and it's usually cheaper at such places than at forecourts. Plus (since we're talking EVs and EVers often talk about recharging at home) will mention you can have an LPG bulk tank at home and refuel from that... although since refuelling anywhere (including at home) only takes minutes most people that run LPG don't bother with the home facilities. I suppose we could compare number of LPG stations that can refuel a car in minutes to number of EV charging points that could refuel a car in minutes... LPG wins every time if you look at it like that - because let's face it, even if an EV charging point is along a route you often take it won't be much use if it would take 6 hours to deliver 'half a tank' of juice especially if half a tank can get you only 40 miles down the road lol. Losing 20% mpg when running on LPG is near worst case scenario, most users lose about 10% mpg, but LPG is around half price of petrol and is even available at well under half the price of petrol.. Savings of 40% to 50% are easily realised when running on LPG.

Of course another thing with EVs is that at higher speeds the power efficiency at lower speeds is a point that turns against them. It works like this - If an EV has range rated at 300 miles this won't be at 100mph it will be closer to 50mph, if you were to drive an EV that has 300 miles range at 50mph at 100mph it's range will be very much lower than 300 miles. Of course the same effect is also applies to ice cars but it is more prominent with EVs... If an ice car has range of 300 miles at 50mph it might have range of say 175 miles at 100mph, while an EV with range of 300 miles at 50mph might have range of say 125miles at 100 mph. Engines are not as efficient at making a smaller fraction of the power they can deliver as they are at making a higher fraction of the power they can deliver, we are all familiar with the concept that if we have 2 same model vehicles but one has a bigger engine than the other the one with the smaller engine will do better mpg but the one with the bigger engine will have higher top speed.. yet for any given speed below top speed the one with the smaller engine will be more economical because it makes that fraction of it's total power rating power more efficiently as the fraction of total power increases. Engine inefficiency at slow speeds offsets mpg and goes towards evening the figures over a range of speeds but this isn't a factor for EVs so at higher speeds range falls away more than it does for ice vehicles. There have always been folklore discussions about speed/mpg/number of refuel stops affecting overall length of journey, as in is there any point in going faster if this means having to refuel more often, does increased number of refuel stops add more time onto a journey than driving more slowly would.. This is very unlikely with any ice car but when we consider length of time and inconvenience for charging an EV then there becomes a lot more truth in such folklore points!

Edited by SimonYorkshire on Monday 11th December 13:25

[rscott]

SimonYorkshire said:

rscott said:

TobyLerone said:

LPG (liquid petroleum gas) is a slightly cleaner fuel, which has far less duty. Even thirsty cars can average out 40-50 mpg equivalent on LPG. You need separate tank, which replace your spare tyre, or take up space in the boot. Conversions range in price from sub £1k to £3k, depending on complexity, fit, car, and supplier.

Great photo by the way - love the monochrome

It's good to see folk are up for trying something different. I'm a bit envious! The acceleration of the Tesla's is very very addictive. I don't think there's much that can keep up in the real world, whole not having a bunch of compromises. You can actually use it on the road too - it's obviously not appropriate on the road to be doing 100-150 mph pulls on the public road. But the traffic light grand prix, and that intoxicating acceleration / party piece.. very accessible.

A vehicle running on LPG gets about 80% of the mpg returned on petrol - it's less efficient, not more. However the fuel is just under half the cost of petrol so there is a cost saving. Bear in mind that less than 1 in 7 filling stations have LPG now, so it's worth checking if it's available on your regular routes before investing in a conversion. Its not practical for me as my nearest LPG station is a 10 miles away in a direction I rarely go.

Around 1 in 7 forecourts have LPG and that's been the situation for a long time. In addition most bottled gas (Calor, Flogas, etc) depots have autogas refuelling facilities (plenty such depots about) and it's usually cheaper at such places than at forecourts. Plus (since we're talking EVs and EVers often talk about recharging at home) will mention you can have an LPG bulk tank at home and refuel from that... although since refuelling anywhere (including at home) only takes minutes most people that run LPG don't bother with the home facilities. I suppose we could compare number of LPG stations that can refuel a car in minutes to number of EV charging points that could refuel a car in minutes... LPG wins every time if you look at it like that - because let's face it, even if an EV charging point is along a route you often take it won't be much use if it would take 6 hours to deliver 'half a tank' of juice especially if half a tank can get you only 40 miles down the road lol. Losing 20% mpg when running on LPG is near worst case scenario, most users lose about 10% mpg, but LPG is around half price of petrol and is even available at well under half the price of petrol.. Savings of 40% to 50% are easily realised when running on LPG.

The number of forecourts with LPG has been declining over the last few years (with BP's decision to withdraw it from many of their facilities, along with the drop in usage of LPG).


So more complete and utter bullst from you? Now you claim it takes 6 hours to put 'half a tank' in an EV, which would only give a 40 mile range - what is that being charged with? A dynamo?

Nissan Leaf with 24kWh battery charging from a 3.6kwh supply would take 4 hours to put 50% in. That's about the slowest charging option available. Charging time could be nearer 20 minutes, with a CHAdeMO outlet.

[SimonYorkshire]

rscott said:

SimonYorkshire said:

rscott said:

TobyLerone said:

LPG (liquid petroleum gas) is a slightly cleaner fuel, which has far less duty. Even thirsty cars can average out 40-50 mpg equivalent on LPG. You need separate tank, which replace your spare tyre, or take up space in the boot. Conversions range in price from sub £1k to £3k, depending on complexity, fit, car, and supplier.

Great photo by the way - love the monochrome

It's good to see folk are up for trying something different. I'm a bit envious! The acceleration of the Tesla's is very very addictive. I don't think there's much that can keep up in the real world, whole not having a bunch of compromises. You can actually use it on the road too - it's obviously not appropriate on the road to be doing 100-150 mph pulls on the public road. But the traffic light grand prix, and that intoxicating acceleration / party piece.. very accessible.

A vehicle running on LPG gets about 80% of the mpg returned on petrol - it's less efficient, not more. However the fuel is just under half the cost of petrol so there is a cost saving. Bear in mind that less than 1 in 7 filling stations have LPG now, so it's worth checking if it's available on your regular routes before investing in a conversion. Its not practical for me as my nearest LPG station is a 10 miles away in a direction I rarely go.

Around 1 in 7 forecourts have LPG and that's been the situation for a long time. In addition most bottled gas (Calor, Flogas, etc) depots have autogas refuelling facilities (plenty such depots about) and it's usually cheaper at such places than at forecourts. Plus (since we're talking EVs and EVers often talk about recharging at home) will mention you can have an LPG bulk tank at home and refuel from that... although since refuelling anywhere (including at home) only takes minutes most people that run LPG don't bother with the home facilities. I suppose we could compare number of LPG stations that can refuel a car in minutes to number of EV charging points that could refuel a car in minutes... LPG wins every time if you look at it like that - because let's face it, even if an EV charging point is along a route you often take it won't be much use if it would take 6 hours to deliver 'half a tank' of juice especially if half a tank can get you only 40 miles down the road lol. Losing 20% mpg when running on LPG is near worst case scenario, most users lose about 10% mpg, but LPG is around half price of petrol and is even available at well under half the price of petrol.. Savings of 40% to 50% are easily realised when running on LPG.

The number of forecourts with LPG has been declining over the last few years (with BP's decision to withdraw it from many of their facilities, along with the drop in usage of LPG).


So more complete and utter bullst from you? Now you claim it takes 6 hours to put 'half a tank' in an EV, which would only give a 40 mile range - what is that being charged with? A dynamo?

Nissan Leaf with 24kWh battery charging from a 3.6kwh supply would take 4 hours to put 50% in. That's about the slowest charging option available. Charging time could be nearer 20 minutes, with a CHAdeMO outlet.

Happy to go with your figures Rscott. So only 4 hours to put 50% (which is 12kwh) in. How many miles could you drive on 12kwh? Of course, whatever figure you come up with will be lower in the real world when the driver uses the car's heater, lights, wipers, aircon, etc.
'Only' 20 mins for that same range from a CHAdeMO outlet.... sorry I'm still not impressed! But OK... Show us a map of where CHAdeMO outlets are please? You couldn't fit a CHAdeMO outlet at just any site because the 62kw (whatever) is a bigger draw of electricity than is supplied to most sites.
Not to mention your 4 hours to put half a tank in is for a Leaf with a 24kwh battery, it would be 16 hours to put half a tank in for a Tesla with a 100kwh battery or 32 hours to put a full tank in for that Tesla doesn't it? Likewise your 20 minutes on the CHAdeMO charger becomes 80 minutes for half a tank or 160 minutes for a full tank for the Tesla with the 100kwh battery eh.
Which is why the OP of this thread was very specific about the route he took when driving some distance in his Tesla.. His EV imposed his route on him because if he hadn't charged at Tesla superchargers he could have been stuck charging for some very long times on a journey of that distance. Meanwhile, for anyone driving 690 miles over a couple of days in any ice car the journey and refuelling specifics would hardly have justified a write up - or do you want to hear about the times I've pulled my caravan 350 miles in one stint on LPG and had no worries whatsoever about refuelling or how long it would take?

Edited by SimonYorkshire on Monday 11th December 13:44

[DapperDanMan]

SimonYorkshire said:

rscott said:

TobyLerone said:

LPG (liquid petroleum gas) is a slightly cleaner fuel, which has far less duty. Even thirsty cars can average out 40-50 mpg equivalent on LPG. You need separate tank, which replace your spare tyre, or take up space in the boot. Conversions range in price from sub £1k to £3k, depending on complexity, fit, car, and supplier.

Great photo by the way - love the monochrome

It's good to see folk are up for trying something different. I'm a bit envious! The acceleration of the Tesla's is very very addictive. I don't think there's much that can keep up in the real world, whole not having a bunch of compromises. You can actually use it on the road too - it's obviously not appropriate on the road to be doing 100-150 mph pulls on the public road. But the traffic light grand prix, and that intoxicating acceleration / party piece.. very accessible.

A vehicle running on LPG gets about 80% of the mpg returned on petrol - it's less efficient, not more. However the fuel is just under half the cost of petrol so there is a cost saving. Bear in mind that less than 1 in 7 filling stations have LPG now, so it's worth checking if it's available on your regular routes before investing in a conversion. Its not practical for me as my nearest LPG station is a 10 miles away in a direction I rarely go.

Around 1 in 7 forecourts have LPG and that's been the situation for a long time. In addition most bottled gas (Calor, Flogas, etc) depots have autogas refuelling facilities (plenty such depots about) and it's usually cheaper at such places than at forecourts. Plus (since we're talking EVs and EVers often talk about recharging at home) will mention you can have an LPG bulk tank at home and refuel from that... although since refuelling anywhere (including at home) only takes minutes most people that run LPG don't bother with the home facilities. I suppose we could compare number of LPG stations that can refuel a car in minutes to number of EV charging points that could refuel a car in minutes... LPG wins every time if you look at it like that - because let's face it, even if an EV charging point is along a route you often take it won't be much use if it would take 6 hours to deliver 'half a tank' of juice especially if half a tank can get you only 40 miles down the road lol. Losing 20% mpg when running on LPG is near worst case scenario, most users lose about 10% mpg, but LPG is around half price of petrol and is even available at well under half the price of petrol.. Savings of 40% to 50% are easily realised when running on LPG.

But the time to charge is not really an issue for most people. They can charge at home and often don't even visit a charging station that beats LPG hands down. How much does it cost to have an LPG tank fitted and setup to refuel a car at home? I can bet it isn't as cheap as getting a charger installed. Also you would then be buying your fuel in bulk ahead of use which is not cash flow efficient especially when comparing to a TESLA which if required can be charged for nothing at a supercharger or for buttons on economy 7. Finally is it even legal from a regulation point of view and also regarding taxation on vehicle fuel?

If BEV means that people have to stop every 3 hours of driving when on a longer journey then that is better for road safety and they tend to do that anyway for comfort breaks. The battery capacity is only going to improve and the charging infrastructure along with it.

Has the LPG world reached its zenith yet, it has certainly had long enough? In terms of reducing complexity BEV wins again, all LPG does is make the ICE car more complex.

From above

gangzoom said:

...
I love our Tesla more than any of my previous cars, no car is perfect, but this things isn't far off. I really couldn't careless about some of the rubbish I've seen posted/said about EVs. As far am concerned I've now done 11K miles since March with no change at all in my driving style/speed/range compared to my old combustion cars. As prices of longer range EVs fall, I hope more people will be able to discover there is life after the combustion engine, and it isn't half bad
...

So is gangzoom lying when he states "11K miles since March with no change at all in my driving style/speed/range compared to my old combustion cars". It seems the decision is right for his/her circumstances.

I noticed some of your other posts above. It seems to me that having had your arse roasted on various posts you are now just going to invade EV posts everywhere with your preposterous comparison yarns. If you drive 700 miles with just a toilet break you should have your licence revoked you are putting yourself and other road users in danger doing this.

Edited by DapperDanMan on Monday 11th December 13:53

[DapperDanMan]

SimonYorkshire said:

rscott said:

SimonYorkshire said:

rscott said:

TobyLerone said:

LPG (liquid petroleum gas) is a slightly cleaner fuel, which has far less duty. Even thirsty cars can average out 40-50 mpg equivalent on LPG. You need separate tank, which replace your spare tyre, or take up space in the boot. Conversions range in price from sub £1k to £3k, depending on complexity, fit, car, and supplier.

Great photo by the way - love the monochrome

It's good to see folk are up for trying something different. I'm a bit envious! The acceleration of the Tesla's is very very addictive. I don't think there's much that can keep up in the real world, whole not having a bunch of compromises. You can actually use it on the road too - it's obviously not appropriate on the road to be doing 100-150 mph pulls on the public road. But the traffic light grand prix, and that intoxicating acceleration / party piece.. very accessible.

A vehicle running on LPG gets about 80% of the mpg returned on petrol - it's less efficient, not more. However the fuel is just under half the cost of petrol so there is a cost saving. Bear in mind that less than 1 in 7 filling stations have LPG now, so it's worth checking if it's available on your regular routes before investing in a conversion. Its not practical for me as my nearest LPG station is a 10 miles away in a direction I rarely go.

Around 1 in 7 forecourts have LPG and that's been the situation for a long time. In addition most bottled gas (Calor, Flogas, etc) depots have autogas refuelling facilities (plenty such depots about) and it's usually cheaper at such places than at forecourts. Plus (since we're talking EVs and EVers often talk about recharging at home) will mention you can have an LPG bulk tank at home and refuel from that... although since refuelling anywhere (including at home) only takes minutes most people that run LPG don't bother with the home facilities. I suppose we could compare number of LPG stations that can refuel a car in minutes to number of EV charging points that could refuel a car in minutes... LPG wins every time if you look at it like that - because let's face it, even if an EV charging point is along a route you often take it won't be much use if it would take 6 hours to deliver 'half a tank' of juice especially if half a tank can get you only 40 miles down the road lol. Losing 20% mpg when running on LPG is near worst case scenario, most users lose about 10% mpg, but LPG is around half price of petrol and is even available at well under half the price of petrol.. Savings of 40% to 50% are easily realised when running on LPG.

The number of forecourts with LPG has been declining over the last few years (with BP's decision to withdraw it from many of their facilities, along with the drop in usage of LPG).


So more complete and utter bullst from you? Now you claim it takes 6 hours to put 'half a tank' in an EV, which would only give a 40 mile range - what is that being charged with? A dynamo?

Nissan Leaf with 24kWh battery charging from a 3.6kwh supply would take 4 hours to put 50% in. That's about the slowest charging option available. Charging time could be nearer 20 minutes, with a CHAdeMO outlet.

Happy to go with your figures Rscott. So only 4 hours to put 50% (which is 12kwh) in. How many miles could you drive on 12kwh? Of course, whatever figure you come up with will be lower in the real world when the driver uses the car's heater, lights, wipers, aircon, etc.
'Only' 20 mins for that same range from a CHAdeMO outlet.... sorry I'm still not impressed! But OK... Show us a map of where CHAdeMO outlets are please? You couldn't fit a CHAdeMO outlet at just any site because the 62kw (whatever) is a bigger draw of electricity than is supplied to most sites.
Not to mention your 4 hours to put half a tank in is for a Leaf with a 24kwh battery, it would be 16 hours to put half a tank in for a Tesla with a 100kwh battery or 32 hours to put a full tank in for that Tesla doesn't it? Likewise your 20 minutes on the CHAdeMO charger becomes 80 minutes for half a tank or 160 minutes for a full tank for the Tesla with the 100kwh battery eh.
Which is why the OP of this thread was very specific about the route he took when driving some distance in his Tesla.. His EV imposed his route on him because if he hadn't charged at Tesla superchargers he could have been stuck charging for some very long times on a journey of that distance. Meanwhile, for anyone driving 690 miles over a couple of days in any ice car the journey and refuelling specifics would hardly have justified a write up - or do you want to hear about the times I've pulled my caravan 350 miles in one stint on LPG and had no worries whatsoever about refuelling or how long it would take?

Edited by SimonYorkshire on Monday 11th December 13:44

If you want to do a post about dragging your caravan 350 miles then do it. It justifies a write up because the OP wanted to write it up, you are not the arbiter of what does and doesn't go on this site. If I was you I would stick to bullstting on LPG forums and leave the EV stuff to people who have done some research and have some first hand experience.

[rscott]

SimonYorkshire said:

Happy to go with your figures Rscott. So only 4 hours to put 50% (which is 12kwh) in. How many miles could you drive on 12kwh? Of course, whatever figure you come up with will be lower in the real world when the driver uses the car's heater, lights, wipers, aircon, etc.
'Only' 20 mins for that same range from a CHAdeMO outlet.... sorry I'm still not impressed! But OK... Show us a map of where CHAdeMO outlets are please? You couldn't fit a CHAdeMO outlet at just any site because the 62kw (whatever) is a bigger draw of electricity than is supplied to most sites.
Not to mention your 4 hours to put half a tank in is for a Leaf with a 24kwh battery, it would be 16 hours to put half a tank in for a Tesla with a 100kwh battery or 32 hours to put a full tank in for that Tesla doesn't it? Likewise your 20 minutes on the CHAdeMO charger becomes 80 minutes for half a tank or 160 minutes for a full tank for the Tesla with the 100kwh battery eh.
Which is why the OP of this thread was very specific about the route he took when driving some distance in his Tesla.. His EV imposed his route on him because if he hadn't charged at Tesla superchargers he could have been stuck charging for some very long times on a journey of that distance. Meanwhile, for anyone driving 690 miles over a couple of days in any ice car the journey and refuelling specifics would hardly have justified a write up - or do you want to hear about the times I've pulled my caravan 350 miles in one stint on LPG and had no worries whatsoever about refuelling or how long it would take?

Edited by SimonYorkshire on Monday 11th December 13:44

Figures are from here - https://leccy.net/

Real world postings from actual Leaf users suggest a 24kWh Leaf gets around 80 miles a charge - I assumed you were talking about that as you said 50% charge to give 40 miles.

Chademo outlets :-




Shock horror! Current EV doesn't fit every user's usage profile. We know that - no one claims they're able to replace every ICE vehicle tomorrow. Same as an LPG or diesel car may not be the best choice for every user.
For example - a diesel is no good for me as I make lots of short journeys with occasional longer ones. LPG wouldn't be worth the expense or loss of boot space as there's nowhere convenient to fill up. My other half has a diesel Focus as she does 18k a year of mainly dual carriageway driving, so it's extremely cost effective. The other option would have been a petrol car (but couldn't be LPG converted as leased), so that was out the question straightaway.

However EVs are already technically capable of meeting the needs of a sizeable portion of typical users, something you appear to be unable to comprehend.

[SimonYorkshire]

DapperDanMan said:

rscott said:

But the time to charge is not really an issue for most people. They can charge at home and often don't even visit a charging station that beats LPG hands down. How much does it cost to have an LPG tank fitted and setup to refuel a car at home? I can bet it isn't as cheap as getting a charger installed. Also you would then be buying your fuel in bulk ahead of use which is not cash flow efficient especially when comparing to a TESLA which if required can be charged for nothing at a supercharger or for buttons on economy 7. Finally is it even legal from a regulation point of view and also regarding taxation on vehicle fuel?

If BEV means that people have to stop every 3 hours of driving when on a longer journey then that is better for road safety and they tend to do that anyway for comfort breaks. The battery capacity is only going to improve and the charging infrastructure along with it.

Has the LPG world reached its zenith yet, it has certainly had long enough? In terms of reducing complexity BEV wins again, all LPG does is make the ICE car more complex.

What vehicle are you referring to here "it would take 6 hours to deliver 'half a tank' of juice especially if half a tank can get you only 40 miles down the road"? Maybe a car plugged into a 13A wall socket or is it just more trolling to promote your business.

From above

gangzoom said:

...
I love our Tesla more than any of my previous cars, no car is perfect, but this things isn't far off. I really couldn't careless about some of the rubbish I've seen posted/said about EVs. As far am concerned I've now done 11K miles since March with no change at all in my driving style/speed/range compared to my old combustion cars. As prices of longer range EVs fall, I hope more people will be able to discover there is life after the combustion engine, and it isn't half bad
...

So is gangzoom lying when he states "11K miles since March with no change at all in my driving style/speed/range compared to my old combustion cars". It seems the decision is right for his/her circumstances.

Lol I wondered how quickly we'd get back to that point 'everyone can charge an EV at home'. This hardly helped Gangzoom on his drive to Scotland did it? Yes you can easily get set up with an LPG tank at home, it is legal, just that you probably wouldn't because it only takes minutes to refuel at a forecourt / gas depot / independent autogas supplier. You could get set up with an LPG conversion on a current petrol car and a bulk tank at home for less than cost of switching to an EV.

You've just touched on another point... Even the 3.5kw charger Rscott was referring to is more power than you can get from a 3 pin plug.

You cannot make a point about safety just because an EV implies a stop every couple of hours. Does the EV automatically issue sleeping tablets when you stop to recharge? What if someone had an early morning and what would be a 3 hour journey in an ice (so would mean the driver got home before bedtime) now becomes a 6 hour journey (3 hours past bedtime by the time he gets home) due to charge time for an EV? If the driver doesn't sleep during that charge, perhaps because he's now stressed about not getting home for a certain time, that journey could be more dangerous simply due to it taking longer total time. It should not be vehicle limitations that decide when the driver rests / sleeps, it should be up to the driver. Wonder what other people think about which driver is most likely to make a mistake, one who could safely make it home in 3 hours or one who's car enforced a long stop on the journey, perhaps making the journey end past bedtime. The driver who could refuel in minutes is less likely to be stressed and could stop for a break during the journey if he wanted anyway.

It goes without saying that Gangzoom would be unlikely to just so happen to have parked beside a Tesla supercharger during 110000 miles of ice driving, and for same reasons he would be unlikely to have taken all the same routes in an ice car - The Tesla EV will have dictated his routes and where / when / for how long he stopped. This is not the same as calling Gangzoom a liar, Gangzoom only said 'no change in driving style / speed / range', he did not include 'route' or 'refuelling locations'.. you need to consider context a bit more Rscott.

Edited by SimonYorkshire on Monday 11th December 14:16

[DapperDanMan]

SimonYorkshire said:

DapperDanMan said:

rscott said:

But the time to charge is not really an issue for most people. They can charge at home and often don't even visit a charging station that beats LPG hands down. How much does it cost to have an LPG tank fitted and setup to refuel a car at home? I can bet it isn't as cheap as getting a charger installed. Also you would then be buying your fuel in bulk ahead of use which is not cash flow efficient especially when comparing to a TESLA which if required can be charged for nothing at a supercharger or for buttons on economy 7. Finally is it even legal from a regulation point of view and also regarding taxation on vehicle fuel?

If BEV means that people have to stop every 3 hours of driving when on a longer journey then that is better for road safety and they tend to do that anyway for comfort breaks. The battery capacity is only going to improve and the charging infrastructure along with it.

Has the LPG world reached its zenith yet, it has certainly had long enough? In terms of reducing complexity BEV wins again, all LPG does is make the ICE car more complex.

What vehicle are you referring to here "it would take 6 hours to deliver 'half a tank' of juice especially if half a tank can get you only 40 miles down the road"? Maybe a car plugged into a 13A wall socket or is it just more trolling to promote your business.

From above

gangzoom said:

...
I love our Tesla more than any of my previous cars, no car is perfect, but this things isn't far off. I really couldn't careless about some of the rubbish I've seen posted/said about EVs. As far am concerned I've now done 11K miles since March with no change at all in my driving style/speed/range compared to my old combustion cars. As prices of longer range EVs fall, I hope more people will be able to discover there is life after the combustion engine, and it isn't half bad
...

So is gangzoom lying when he states "11K miles since March with no change at all in my driving style/speed/range compared to my old combustion cars". It seems the decision is right for his/her circumstances.

Lol I wondered how quickly we'd get back to that point 'everyone can charge an EV at home'. This hardly helped Gangzoom on his drive to Scotland did it? Yes you can easily get set up with an LPG tank at home, it is legal, just that you probably wouldn't because it only takes minutes to refuel at a forecourt / gas depot / independent autogas supplier. You could get set up with an LPG conversion on a current petrol car and a bulk tank at home for less than cost of switching to an EV.

You've just touched on another point... Even the 3.5kw charger Rscott was referring to is more power than you can get from a 3 pin plug.

You cannot make a point about safety just because an EV implies a stop every couple of hours. Does the EV automatically issue sleeping tablets when you stop to recharge? What if someone had an early morning and what would be a 3 hour journey in an ice (so would mean the driver got home before bedtime) now becomes a 6 hour journey (3 hours past bedtime by the time he gets home) due to charge time for an EV? If the driver doesn't sleep during that charge, perhaps because he's now stressed about not getting home for a certain time, that journey could be more dangerous simply due to it taking longer total time. It should not be vehicle limitations that decide when the driver rests / sleeps, it should be up to the driver. Wonder what other people think about which driver is most likely to make a mistake, one who could safely make it home in 3 hours or one who's car enforced a long stop on the journey, perhaps making the journey end past bedtime. The driver who could refuel in minutes is less likely to be stressed and could stop for a break during the journey if he wanted anyway.

It goes without saying that Gangzoom would be unlikely to just so happen to have parked beside a Tesla supercharger during 110000 miles of ice driving, and for same reasons he would be unlikely to have taken all the same routes in an ice car - The Tesla EV will have dictated his routes and where / when / for how long he stopped. This is not the same as calling Gangzoom a liar, Gangzoom only said 'no change in driving style / speed / range', he did not include 'route' or 'refuelling locations'.. you need to consider context a bit more Rscott.

Edited by SimonYorkshire on Monday 11th December 14:16

In your haste to reply you have confused me and RSCOTT. Also you didn't answer the question of how much to setup an LPG cylinder and the necessary stuff to refuel a car, but of course you didn't because that would be a discussion and not just a pile of your usual bluster.

I can make a point about safety. You drive for 10 hours with just a stop for a piss and you are not as safe as someone who stops regularly on the same journey for say 30 minutes.

If the owner of the EV in your preposterous scenario was in a TESLA or an Ionic or a range extender i3 they would only need to stop once as 3 hours at max 70mph is 210 miles. If they were in a first generation Leaf then yes they would have to stop more but I would imagine that someone with that need would take advantage of the free ICE car you can get from Nissan. Your ideas seem to be 5 years out of date and based on an episode of Top Gear.

[rscott]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Yep - Spain is a bit lacking in EV charging (to say the least - https://www.plugsurfing.com/en/personal/map.html ), so as has previously been said, EVs don't suit everyone.
Nissan offer the free use of an ICE vehicle for a limited time (think it's two weeks a year) with the Leaf, specifically to help with this sort of situation.

[RayTay]

SimonYorkshire said:

an EV implies a stop every couple of hours.

You must stop making things up.

[gangzoom]

SimonYorkshire said:

It goes without saying that Gangzoom would be unlikely to just so happen to have parked beside a Tesla supercharger during 110000 miles of ice driving, and for same reasons he would be unlikely to have taken all the same routes in an ice car - The Tesla EV will have dictated his routes and where / when / for how long he stopped.

Can you please stop posting BS...Please just stop it.

In case you haven't got a kid, or forgotten, any long distance trip in a 18 months old involves plenty of planning, I had no worries about charging it was my daughter who dictated how long/when the stop were. Infact at all the stop the car had finished charging long before we were ready to leave.

As for the route from Leicester to Scotland, unless you know a quicker up, going up the A50/M6/A74 is pretty much the only sane way. We could have gone up the M1/A1 as well but visiting friends in Liverpool dictated the route.

We have now planned a trip to either South France this summer in the Tesla. Yes we will be stopping enroute, yes we will be charging when stopped. But please just stop posting the same old rubbish. I estimate we will hit 20K in our Tesla by next year this time. For us, EVs work perfectly already as the main family car, it's as simple as that .

EVs are the future, I have to say at Blenhiem palace car show this year the EVs fitted in well with the all the classics on show.....and yes we went to Blenhiem palace in our EV, shock horror we didn't stop not because I didn't pass any EV chargers enroute but because trip was short enough for our daughter to sleep through each way (about 90 minutes each way).

Edited by gangzoom on Monday 11th December 18:17

[anonymous-user]

I’m sure he will if you will.

FFS, this thread is puerile. We get it; Gangzoom likes EVs, thinks they’re the future and thinks there’s interest in banal drives around the UK.

Good. Can’t it stop now? Buy and drive what you want.