Discussion
FeelingLucky said:
Somewhat unfair! He called you out for posting fake facts, and as it turns out, he was bang on.
Ah yesSaying "fantasy land" is calling out a fake fact.
When fantasty land was actually "a mistake" and the fact was merely a subjective experience
Rob absolutely does have a hard on for EV as in another thread I pointed some real world hard questions regarding EV.
Ie everyone says you'll home charge and that the lack of high speed chargers on the road outside of heavily built up areas isn't a problem
But approx 40% of the population don't have a drive way or direct connected off road parking (ie they park on the road, or in communal flat car park etc) and there has been ZERO provision for how these users will be accomodated in the next 10-15 years.
And instead of discussing these points the answer is basically that it will be fine or that private companies will deal with it. (At what cost !!!l
I'm not ignorant I see a place for EV. I could use one as a daily car.
But I don't think EVs themselves, let alone the infrastructure in the UK (power providers, charging outlets, charging speeds) are there yet to completely replace ICE cars, and I genuinely can't see how they will be there within the next 10 years so to force every new car buyer into one is a mistake and that people will suffer as a result.
It's often thrown around that people only drive 20 miles a day and 7800 a year on average but a LOT of people do a lot more miles than that.
Typical attitude, if you fit the usage profile , great , if not, well then you're f
ked.Andy M said:
In good conditions? I recall the temperature being circa 5 degrees, them travelling at motorway speeds and stopping every 40 miles (to swap cars). Not convinced it was a great test, unless you have a ridiculously weak bladder?
Pretty average temperature for 1/3 of the year.
And most people only drive 20 odd miles a day (apparently).
We all know motorway speeds are not the efficient zone that EVs operate at. But that is a real world usage case and imagine having to stop to fill up for an hour or two on a 20Kwhr charger as many fast chargers are either broken, busy or cars not supporting them.
At least Tesla to their credit have a FAIRLY decent infrastructure of fast chargers on main routes with plenty of chargers at the locations.
But again this is no good the further north you are or likewise further into Wales etc.
MC Bodge said:
There appear to be a lot of EV deniers/Luddites on here.
I wonder if they are equally reactionary about other subjects too?
I am a confirmed car lover and am willing to give EV a chance when it is affordable to my family budget and practical for 85% of use. I posted earlier to show that I feel the tipping point is nigh. There are a lot of people out there can’t afford £25k + cars. I can’t justify £50k Tesla’s. What I do believe though is now the “car makers” and I don’t include Tesla in this are starting to move into the £25k to £35k marketplace then these vehicles will start to be affordable as a used option to others who prioritise their spending elsewhere than a car. What the manufacturers will need to do is give greater warranties on batteries though to ensure used market confidence.I wonder if they are equally reactionary about other subjects too?
xjay1337 said:
Ah yes
Saying "fantasy land" is calling out a fake fact.
When fantasty land was actually "a mistake" and the fact was merely a subjective experience
Rob absolutely does have a hard on for EV as in another thread I pointed some real world hard questions regarding EV.
Ie everyone says you'll home charge and that the lack of high speed chargers on the road outside of heavily built up areas isn't a problem
But approx 40% of the population don't have a drive way or direct connected off road parking (ie they park on the road, or in communal flat car park etc) and there has been ZERO provision for how these users will be accomodated in the next 10-15 years.
And instead of discussing these points the answer is basically that it will be fine or that private companies will deal with it. (At what cost !!!l
I'm not ignorant I see a place for EV. I could use one as a daily car.
But I don't think EVs themselves, let alone the infrastructure in the UK (power providers, charging outlets, charging speeds) are there yet to completely replace ICE cars, and I genuinely can't see how they will be there within the next 10 years so to force every new car buyer into one is a mistake and that people will suffer as a result.
It's often thrown around that people only drive 20 miles a day and 7800 a year on average but a LOT of people do a lot more miles than that.
Typical attitude, if you fit the usage profile , great , if not, well then you're fked.
Good points.Saying "fantasy land" is calling out a fake fact.
When fantasty land was actually "a mistake" and the fact was merely a subjective experience
Rob absolutely does have a hard on for EV as in another thread I pointed some real world hard questions regarding EV.
Ie everyone says you'll home charge and that the lack of high speed chargers on the road outside of heavily built up areas isn't a problem
But approx 40% of the population don't have a drive way or direct connected off road parking (ie they park on the road, or in communal flat car park etc) and there has been ZERO provision for how these users will be accomodated in the next 10-15 years.
And instead of discussing these points the answer is basically that it will be fine or that private companies will deal with it. (At what cost !!!l
I'm not ignorant I see a place for EV. I could use one as a daily car.
But I don't think EVs themselves, let alone the infrastructure in the UK (power providers, charging outlets, charging speeds) are there yet to completely replace ICE cars, and I genuinely can't see how they will be there within the next 10 years so to force every new car buyer into one is a mistake and that people will suffer as a result.
It's often thrown around that people only drive 20 miles a day and 7800 a year on average but a LOT of people do a lot more miles than that.
Typical attitude, if you fit the usage profile , great , if not, well then you're f
ked.On the other hand. Are these problems insurmountable?
No. They are not. And it won't be difficult. All we need to do is run electricity to where the cars are parked. Not a difficult problem considering 99.99% of cars are already parked in close proximity to a power supply.
I just made that 99.99% up by the way, but happy to be shown an example of where my estimate is wrong
xjay1337 said:
Typical attitude, if you fit the usage profile , great , if not, well then you're fked.
ked.
Surely if don't, you buy an ICE powered car? That's going to be an option for quite some time! Long enough that most people will have had plenty of time to work around any limitations of VEs which still exist. Edited by kambites on Sunday 16th February 16:35
xjay1337 said:
FeelingLucky said:
Somewhat unfair! He called you out for posting fake facts, and as it turns out, he was bang on.
Ah yesSaying "fantasy land" is calling out a fake fact.
It's almost universally understood, that once you resort to personal attacks, you've lost the debate.
xjay1337 said:
We all know motorway speeds are not the efficient zone that EVs operate at. But that is a real world usage case and imagine having to stop to fill up for an hour or two on a 20Kwhr charger as many fast chargers are either broken, busy or cars not supporting them.
Firstly, Ecotricity chargers found at MSA are abysmal for reliability and at only 50kW are quite old-hat, but they are getting upgraded and improved. They certainly don't speak for the entire industry though and other providers are far better. Those with Chademo (Leaf) are most likely to struggle to find a compatible charger, and some cars like Zoe have a fussy earth tolerance.But many rapid chargers are now approaching 100-150kW and so make filling up a 50kW battery a much easier affair.
Sub-5C is actually a low average temperature for the UK as an average. Usually it's >5C.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/322658/monthly...
soupdragon1 said:
Good points.
On the other hand. Are these problems insurmountable?
No. They are not. And it won't be difficult. All we need to do is run electricity to where the cars are parked. Not a difficult problem considering 99.99% of cars are already parked in close proximity to a power supply.
I just made that 99.99% up by the way, but happy to be shown an example of where my estimate is wrong
Oh no it's not insurmountable. On the other hand. Are these problems insurmountable?
No. They are not. And it won't be difficult. All we need to do is run electricity to where the cars are parked. Not a difficult problem considering 99.99% of cars are already parked in close proximity to a power supply.
I just made that 99.99% up by the way, but happy to be shown an example of where my estimate is wrong
But practically?
Will local substations need to be installed to run say 30 kwhr chargers *still far too slow but I'm trying to be realistic that you don't necessarily need a 100kwhr charger at home, although you should!!!* into 30 spaces in your communal car park. To assume that come 6 PM 80% of cars will all be plugged in at once
How long will it take to dig up the car park to install the wiring and the charge points?
Who will pay for this to be done?
Will it be priced fairly given it's effectively forced on people?
What will be done to ensure t
tty neighbours or stupid kids don't unplug your charger randomly?Same can be said at every single public car park, train station, supermarket, multi story etc.
It's not just as simple as "running a cable to the parking space" like running an extension lead to your jet wash once a fortnight....
Can you see my major concerns about this?
I told you that around 40% of people don't have off road / driveway parking (this is according to the ONS).
So while there may be electricity "nearby" this doesn't always mean it's accessible.
Another way to think about it is for all those people who live in apartment buildings who want to try and wash their car and end up running a hosepipe from their kitchen out the window....
You are always close to water but doesn't mean you can easily access it.
xjay1337 said:
But approx 40% of the population don't have a drive way or direct connected off road parking (ie they park on the road, or in communal flat car park etc) and there has been ZERO provision for how these users will be accomodated in the next 10-15 years.
Fantasy land again im afraid, you really think no one is working on that?
xjay1337 said:
soupdragon1 said:
Good points.
On the other hand. Are these problems insurmountable?
No. They are not. And it won't be difficult. All we need to do is run electricity to where the cars are parked. Not a difficult problem considering 99.99% of cars are already parked in close proximity to a power supply.
I just made that 99.99% up by the way, but happy to be shown an example of where my estimate is wrong
Oh no it's not insurmountable. On the other hand. Are these problems insurmountable?
No. They are not. And it won't be difficult. All we need to do is run electricity to where the cars are parked. Not a difficult problem considering 99.99% of cars are already parked in close proximity to a power supply.
I just made that 99.99% up by the way, but happy to be shown an example of where my estimate is wrong
But practically?
Will local substations need to be installed to run say 30 kwhr chargers *still far too slow but I'm trying to be realistic that you don't necessarily need a 100kwhr charger at home, although you should!!!* into 30 spaces in your communal car park. To assume that come 6 PM 80% of cars will all be plugged in at once
How long will it take to dig up the car park to install the wiring and the charge points?
Who will pay for this to be done?
Will it be priced fairly given it's effectively forced on people?
What will be done to ensure t
tty neighbours or stupid kids don't unplug your charger randomly?Same can be said at every single public car park, train station, supermarket, multi story etc.
It's not just as simple as "running a cable to the parking space" like running an extension lead to your jet wash once a fortnight....
Can you see my major concerns about this?
I told you that around 40% of people don't have off road / driveway parking (this is according to the ONS).
So while there may be electricity "nearby" this doesn't always mean it's accessible.
Another way to think about it is for all those people who live in apartment buildings who want to try and wash their car and end up running a hosepipe from their kitchen out the window....
You are always close to water but doesn't mean you can easily access it.
It is generally helpful to have input from those that use EVs daily but only if that input is honest, debate is healthy. I have learned lots from EV owners on here and as per earlier post will be giving it a go. I do 24k miles p.a. For work and 10k private. I don’t have £50k+ for a car nor can I justify it presently. I have a driveway for 9 cars and large detached garage so no issues with charging. Others are not so fortunate so are therefore rightly worried.
xjay1337 said:
Pretty average temperature for 1/3 of the year.
And most people only drive 20 odd miles a day (apparently).
We all know motorway speeds are not the efficient zone that EVs operate at. But that is a real world usage case and imagine having to stop to fill up for an hour or two on a 20Kwhr charger as many fast chargers are either broken, busy or cars not supporting them.
At least Tesla to their credit have a FAIRLY decent infrastructure of fast chargers on main routes with plenty of chargers at the locations.
But again this is no good the further north you are or likewise further into Wales etc.
IME electricity consumption in an EV seems to be related directly to the speed you travel at. This means that unlike a petrol car its actually better to be sitting in stop start traffic energy consumption wise.And most people only drive 20 odd miles a day (apparently).
We all know motorway speeds are not the efficient zone that EVs operate at. But that is a real world usage case and imagine having to stop to fill up for an hour or two on a 20Kwhr charger as many fast chargers are either broken, busy or cars not supporting them.
At least Tesla to their credit have a FAIRLY decent infrastructure of fast chargers on main routes with plenty of chargers at the locations.
But again this is no good the further north you are or likewise further into Wales etc.
xjay1337 said:
Will local substations need to be installed to run say 30 kwhr chargers *still far too slow but I'm trying to be realistic that you don't necessarily need a 100kwhr charger at home, although you should!!!* into 30 spaces in your communal car park.
Firstly, kwhr isn't a thing. It's neither a battery capacity (kWh) or a power (kW). I think you mean the latter. No one utilise a 30kW charger.What would your use case be? In a 50kWh car a 50kW charger would take about 90-120 mins from zero percent to 100%. In a communal carpark that would make little sense because people aren't going to move their car. A 16A post (3kW) at each charging point would provide most people with 30kWh overnight. Perhaps some would need a 7kW (32A) charger because they are high mileage users.
Many would not need to charge for the rest of the week having filled their 50kWh battery after a night on the 7kW charger.
xjay1337 said:
To assume that come 6 PM 80% of cars will all be plugged in at once
Plugged in, but not necessarily charging. Many may choose to delay until a lower rate is available during the night. Others may pay a premium for immediate, all night charging.xjay1337 said:
Who will pay for this to be done?
Will it be priced fairly given it's effectively forced on people?
Who knows. I certainly didn't choose to have street lighting, I can only assume the council forced it based on progress and now I have to pay for it...Will it be priced fairly given it's effectively forced on people?
xjay1337 said:
What will be done to ensure ttty neighbours or stupid kids don't unplug your charger randomly?
Car alarm goes off. Kind of like why don't we all have flat tyres? I guess people realise that opening a tyre valve gets boring after a while when it becomes mutually assured destruction.tty neighbours or stupid kids don't unplug your charger randomly?xjay1337 said:
It's not just as simple as "running a cable to the parking space" like running an extension lead to your jet wash once a fortnight....
It really is. I've spent time near the arctic circle, they have plug socks at the majority of parking spots. We dig up our roads and pavements every few years anyway for pipes for gas, water, electricity and broadband. We're very good at it as a nation. Too good, almost.Mudgey said:
You don't need proof, you can work it out easily enough.
Now, I am using stats I can't confirm as I have never tested this personally (and why would I want to?). A vehicle uses 0.6 ltr/hour per litre engine capacity, so for example a 2ltr car would be 1.2ltr/hr, say 50ltr tank, would give us approx. 33hrs idle time to power heater or AC.
A typical air source heat pump in a vehicle has what say 2.6 COP efficiency? You probably only need 1.5kw to maintain temperature in a car, but lets say 2kw. So 2kw / 2.6 gives us a consumption of 0.76kwh's to power the heat pump. A full 64kwh battery out of a Kona or Kia would give you 84 hours of heat less system consumption when stationary <- this I don't have figures for either but can't imagine it's more than 100w/hr.
Either way, if a person is stupid enough to let the car run out of fuel or battery power then that would happen no matter whether they were driving an ICE or BEV.
EV's are much more efficient as cars or heaters so I would rather be stuck in an EV than ICE in a snowy jam any day of the week.Now, I am using stats I can't confirm as I have never tested this personally (and why would I want to?). A vehicle uses 0.6 ltr/hour per litre engine capacity, so for example a 2ltr car would be 1.2ltr/hr, say 50ltr tank, would give us approx. 33hrs idle time to power heater or AC.
A typical air source heat pump in a vehicle has what say 2.6 COP efficiency? You probably only need 1.5kw to maintain temperature in a car, but lets say 2kw. So 2kw / 2.6 gives us a consumption of 0.76kwh's to power the heat pump. A full 64kwh battery out of a Kona or Kia would give you 84 hours of heat less system consumption when stationary <- this I don't have figures for either but can't imagine it's more than 100w/hr.
Either way, if a person is stupid enough to let the car run out of fuel or battery power then that would happen no matter whether they were driving an ICE or BEV.
However getting a BEV going from flat would be a problem miles away from a charger.
This really is the issue isn't it, running out in an ICE is a right royal pain, but a plastic jerry can and a taxi ride, and you're on your way again in an hour-ish, possibly less if you're within a stones throw of a filling station.
Completely run out of charge in a BEV, an you're really up the creek.
I'm not sure running out of petrol is all that common though, admittedly, my father did it regularly as he was hell's bent on getting the last dregs out before re-filling, but in my 35 year motoring career, I've only done it once.
I think I read somewhere that the RAC was starting a parol with a van equipped with a genny for use on EVs.
Completely run out of charge in a BEV, an you're really up the creek.
I'm not sure running out of petrol is all that common though, admittedly, my father did it regularly as he was hell's bent on getting the last dregs out before re-filling, but in my 35 year motoring career, I've only done it once.
I think I read somewhere that the RAC was starting a parol with a van equipped with a genny for use on EVs.
I was very negative about EVs but I am now quite exited to try it following having a closer look at the new cars coming to market. I’m not interested in any of this climate change rubbish but accept that EVs are the current next big movement in transport. To maintain my personal transport needs I need to give it a go.
RD I appreciate you understand what it’s like to live in a terraced hell but you don’t live there now. Nobody who currently does would be able to charge and safely park an expensive Tesla and that’s the point. Infrastructure and the issues surrounding it will get better. The next few years are going to be very interesting.
RD I appreciate you understand what it’s like to live in a terraced hell but you don’t live there now. Nobody who currently does would be able to charge and safely park an expensive Tesla and that’s the point. Infrastructure and the issues surrounding it will get better. The next few years are going to be very interesting.
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