Hydrogen availability
Discussion
anonymous said:
[redacted]
The guy doing the report of a trip went in a Murai. We don’t know where he is.Nobody here? Maybe no one actually cares, my mate at the National Grid laughs at ideas it will somehow all go pop. BEVs are recognises as a way of managing the grid power demands rather than building new powerstations, we have plenty of energy generation in the UK. It’s managing the power demand at peak that’s the problem.
Would be scarey if we had to imagine the requirement of eletrolysers though.
leef44 said:
RemarkLima said:
GT119 said:
anonymous said:
[redacted]
cough...Norway....coughAnd yes I know it was a filling station storage tank leak from an incorrectly fitted valve, but surely that just highlights how quickly it all goes very wrong at the slightest opportunity.
And growing up, I'm sure you used to see a lot more cars on file at the side of the road from oil leaks, fuel leaks etc... Maybe it's anecdotal tho?
I would like to think that due to the incident in Norway, we live and learn from this rather than run away and not consider the technology. When we saw lithium battery files, albeit more from aeroplane incidents, we didn't shut down the whole idea of battery technology but instead looked for safety measures to prevent future incidents.
Picture a 10 year old hydrogen car going in for a service at a budget garage and think about all the ways in which a leaky fitting/ filler nozzle etc. could either manifest itself or be overlooked, only for a slow leak to then turn into a fireball a short while later, with say a young parent and child in the car. Would you want that for your son or daughter?
JonnyVTEC said:
The guy doing the report of a trip went in a Murai. We don’t know where he is.
Nobody here? Maybe no one actually cares, my mate at the National Grid laughs at ideas it will somehow all go pop. BEVs are recognises as a way of managing the grid power demands rather than building new powerstations, we have plenty of energy generation in the UK. It’s managing the power demand at peak that’s the problem.
Would be scarey if we had to imagine the requirement of eletrolysers though.
The big issue for rapid charging is getting the electricity to where you need it. Already, within London, it's becoming difficult to get the local grid capacity to install a couple of 150kW chargers. In other areas, the DNO cost for the feed can run into millions.Nobody here? Maybe no one actually cares, my mate at the National Grid laughs at ideas it will somehow all go pop. BEVs are recognises as a way of managing the grid power demands rather than building new powerstations, we have plenty of energy generation in the UK. It’s managing the power demand at peak that’s the problem.
Would be scarey if we had to imagine the requirement of eletrolysers though.
Hydrogen also has an issue with the feed, however, hydrogen can be continually produced and is only limited by the size of the on-site storage.
It's swings and roundabouts - ultimately, taxation and government directive will determine where we go.
I think the pandemic has set back the transition away from ICE, though, as people are holding onto their older ICE cars for longer - lots are reluctant to sign up to finance for a £35k car right now.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Can't find the post, but this was the article - https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/features/full-g...GT119 said:
It’s just another layer (of the many) of complexity that needs addressing. Yes leaks can be addressed, but it makes it that much more dangerous when you can neither see, smell or hear it leaking.
Picture a 10 year old hydrogen car going in for a service at a budget garage and think about all the ways in which a leaky fitting/ filler nozzle etc. could either manifest itself or be overlooked, only for a slow leak to then turn into a fireball a short while later, with say a young parent and child in the car. Would you want that for your son or daughter?
It doesn't even need to be a leaky fitting, it leaks out of the walls of pipes themselves.Picture a 10 year old hydrogen car going in for a service at a budget garage and think about all the ways in which a leaky fitting/ filler nozzle etc. could either manifest itself or be overlooked, only for a slow leak to then turn into a fireball a short while later, with say a young parent and child in the car. Would you want that for your son or daughter?
I've had a poke around a fuel cell lab, tens of thousands of pounds of leak detection and warning systems. And a witches broom to hold in front of you to detect a fire.
An engineering lab is always going to have a lot more safety measures in place than the real world but for hydrogen it was insane how far you had to go to achieve an acceptable level of safety.
frisbee said:
GT119 said:
It’s just another layer (of the many) of complexity that needs addressing. Yes leaks can be addressed, but it makes it that much more dangerous when you can neither see, smell or hear it leaking.
Picture a 10 year old hydrogen car going in for a service at a budget garage and think about all the ways in which a leaky fitting/ filler nozzle etc. could either manifest itself or be overlooked, only for a slow leak to then turn into a fireball a short while later, with say a young parent and child in the car. Would you want that for your son or daughter?
It doesn't even need to be a leaky fitting, it leaks out of the walls of pipes themselves.Picture a 10 year old hydrogen car going in for a service at a budget garage and think about all the ways in which a leaky fitting/ filler nozzle etc. could either manifest itself or be overlooked, only for a slow leak to then turn into a fireball a short while later, with say a young parent and child in the car. Would you want that for your son or daughter?
I've had a poke around a fuel cell lab, tens of thousands of pounds of leak detection and warning systems. And a witches broom to hold in front of you to detect a fire.
An engineering lab is always going to have a lot more safety measures in place than the real world but for hydrogen it was insane how far you had to go to achieve an acceptable level of safety.
To think that a lab cannot control leaks of hydrogen but yet Hyundai have built a functioning working FCEV which you can buy now and use. That does not compute.
https://www.hyundai.com/au/en/hyundai-info/news/20...
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Not a bad article. Looks like hydrogen network needs work, from his experience, but way better in some.of Europe than here. But that's not something anyone is denying, it's something I've stated and is something the reports I've linked to say needs to happen. I think the Hyundai article I posted said they thought the same and were pressing the Korean government on this.frisbee said:
GT119 said:
It’s just another layer (of the many) of complexity that needs addressing. Yes leaks can be addressed, but it makes it that much more dangerous when you can neither see, smell or hear it leaking.
Picture a 10 year old hydrogen car going in for a service at a budget garage and think about all the ways in which a leaky fitting/ filler nozzle etc. could either manifest itself or be overlooked, only for a slow leak to then turn into a fireball a short while later, with say a young parent and child in the car. Would you want that for your son or daughter?
It doesn't even need to be a leaky fitting, it leaks out of the walls of pipes themselves.Picture a 10 year old hydrogen car going in for a service at a budget garage and think about all the ways in which a leaky fitting/ filler nozzle etc. could either manifest itself or be overlooked, only for a slow leak to then turn into a fireball a short while later, with say a young parent and child in the car. Would you want that for your son or daughter?
I've had a poke around a fuel cell lab, tens of thousands of pounds of leak detection and warning systems. And a witches broom to hold in front of you to detect a fire.
An engineering lab is always going to have a lot more safety measures in place than the real world but for hydrogen it was insane how far you had to go to achieve an acceptable level of safety.
Hydrogen is a different matter.
And for those who want to argue that a 10 year old battery pack will also need care, yes maybe, but not to the same degree.
If that is the case, why oh why would you then have both a battery pack and a ready made explosion in the same passenger vehicle.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Now if I was going to the Alps I'd prefer not to have to tie stops with fuelling. I had a bit of a road trip across Italy and I stopped at places that we thought would be nice, some small places in the lakes. I like the freedom that ICE brings. On the Alps trip the guy could have gone that 1000km in a Mirai and would have only had to tie one of those stops to fuelling. Obviously assuming the hydrogen network was in place and the Mirai was a reasonable steer!Horses for courses, but in this race bets are each way!
Still though, the grid say they've got it handled but the figures they quote really don't tally with that!
VK: Your reply at 14:10 is disingenuous.
As before, you are silent on the carbon footprint issue. As the whole aim of alternative fuels is to cut CO2 emissions, it is a pretty fundamental point.
What do you advocate? Leave hydrogen on the shelf until there is sufficient zero-carbon energy to support its extravagant requirements? Tip: don't hold your breath.
Then you miss, or sidestep, the point of the question you originally raised of how to handle large numbers of vehicles needing refuelling/recharging. The fact that every FCEV will be tied to the public fuelling system whereas the majority of BEVs will charge at home means that bottlenecks will be just as likely for FCEVs.
The crux of the matter is how to handle large numbers. Yes, BEVs will spend longer refilling even if my guesstimate of 75 kWh per "fill" was excessive for all but the biggest batteries. That's a side-issue here. So the BEV fleet will require more chargers for a given throughput because of the longer time to refuel. However the total infrastructure and utilities will be a fraction of that required for hydrogen and that will be the limiting factor which you fail to address.
You seem to forget that, in my earlier post, I said " Clearly onsite generation is not feasible for any significant throughput."
Tesla already have recharging stations with 50 stalls. What's the average charging stop? Some will be splash-and-dash to get to their destination. Others will "brim the tank" for the next leg of a long journey. At 30 minutes per stop the facility could supply 100 vehicles per hour; at 60 minutes per that drops to 50.
So there's a target for you. As an enthusiastic hydrogen advocate you should be able to spell out what would be required for a hydrogen station to serve those numbers.
As before, you are silent on the carbon footprint issue. As the whole aim of alternative fuels is to cut CO2 emissions, it is a pretty fundamental point.
What do you advocate? Leave hydrogen on the shelf until there is sufficient zero-carbon energy to support its extravagant requirements? Tip: don't hold your breath.
Then you miss, or sidestep, the point of the question you originally raised of how to handle large numbers of vehicles needing refuelling/recharging. The fact that every FCEV will be tied to the public fuelling system whereas the majority of BEVs will charge at home means that bottlenecks will be just as likely for FCEVs.
The crux of the matter is how to handle large numbers. Yes, BEVs will spend longer refilling even if my guesstimate of 75 kWh per "fill" was excessive for all but the biggest batteries. That's a side-issue here. So the BEV fleet will require more chargers for a given throughput because of the longer time to refuel. However the total infrastructure and utilities will be a fraction of that required for hydrogen and that will be the limiting factor which you fail to address.
You seem to forget that, in my earlier post, I said " Clearly onsite generation is not feasible for any significant throughput."
Tesla already have recharging stations with 50 stalls. What's the average charging stop? Some will be splash-and-dash to get to their destination. Others will "brim the tank" for the next leg of a long journey. At 30 minutes per stop the facility could supply 100 vehicles per hour; at 60 minutes per that drops to 50.
So there's a target for you. As an enthusiastic hydrogen advocate you should be able to spell out what would be required for a hydrogen station to serve those numbers.
50 charging stalls is a real exception - go and ask the DNOs for that capacity in the UK. When they've picked themselves up the floor, they'll give you a figure that makes the furlough bill look reasonable.
It all sounds really simple - plug in at home, stick a dozen charging posts in the supermarket car park. But when you engage the DNOs to embark on these projects, it starts to become prohibitively expensive. Which is why some of the commercial charging networks are starting to ramp up costs to somewhere near equivalent to a 60mpg diesel.
As things stand, it's tax incentives and subsidies that are keeping the BEV revolution going.
It all sounds really simple - plug in at home, stick a dozen charging posts in the supermarket car park. But when you engage the DNOs to embark on these projects, it starts to become prohibitively expensive. Which is why some of the commercial charging networks are starting to ramp up costs to somewhere near equivalent to a 60mpg diesel.
As things stand, it's tax incentives and subsidies that are keeping the BEV revolution going.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Sorry, just going to single quote for legibility here. Having driven across France, Switzerland, Italy, Austria, Germany and Holland a number of times I can't really agree with you there. There's generally in my experience "travel days", where it's just a slog to get some proper miles under the belt, either across the peage or autobahn and once there, the pace slows to enjoy the right spots.
Having done it in a Z3M with terrible consumption and a tiny fuel tank also meant 300 miles between stops which was a PITA. Nice once in the mountains and lakes, where range isn't so much of an issue, and stopping for a long lunch, or mooch in a village really is a nice break.
So, I kinda get the sentiment, but can't see it panning out that way for me. You'd get there and then once there, the range and charge times drop away as an issue IMHO.
Landcrab_Six said:
JonnyVTEC said:
The guy doing the report of a trip went in a Murai. We don’t know where he is.
Nobody here? Maybe no one actually cares, my mate at the National Grid laughs at ideas it will somehow all go pop. BEVs are recognises as a way of managing the grid power demands rather than building new powerstations, we have plenty of energy generation in the UK. It’s managing the power demand at peak that’s the problem.
Would be scarey if we had to imagine the requirement of eletrolysers though.
The big issue for rapid charging is getting the electricity to where you need it. Already, within London, it's becoming difficult to get the local grid capacity to install a couple of 150kW chargers. In other areas, the DNO cost for the feed can run into millions.Nobody here? Maybe no one actually cares, my mate at the National Grid laughs at ideas it will somehow all go pop. BEVs are recognises as a way of managing the grid power demands rather than building new powerstations, we have plenty of energy generation in the UK. It’s managing the power demand at peak that’s the problem.
Would be scarey if we had to imagine the requirement of eletrolysers though.
Hydrogen also has an issue with the feed, however, hydrogen can be continually produced and is only limited by the size of the on-site storage.
It's swings and roundabouts - ultimately, taxation and government directive will determine where we go.
I think the pandemic has set back the transition away from ICE, though, as people are holding onto their older ICE cars for longer - lots are reluctant to sign up to finance for a £35k car right now.
I think that commercial/freight/fleet FCEV will lead the way for hydrogen and pave the way for the consumer market to get on board.
I still don't see how people think the grid have a handle on scaling up of BEV in this country. Fair enough they say they have it under control but, unless I have calculated the wrong number of zeros (!), I don't see how their short statement works out. When talking about getting power to where it needs to be I don't see anyone on here come up with a copy of a plan or some knowledge of the details for how many chargers are needed, where they're going to be, how it's proposed on-street charging will work. I've bodged a rough estimate of 3 million public chargers needed in the UK in the hypothetical situation that we're all BEV. I based it on an EU document that I skim read and haven't yet linked to on here.
Nobody's set me straight on that one yet.
So many seem dead set that BEV will fly and FCEV will die but none have offered any real substance to show how BEV will succeed here, especially not Mr VTEC.
RemarkLima said:
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Sorry, just going to single quote for legibility here. Having driven across France, Switzerland, Italy, Austria, Germany and Holland a number of times I can't really agree with you there. There's generally in my experience "travel days", where it's just a slog to get some proper miles under the belt, either across the peage or autobahn and once there, the pace slows to enjoy the right spots.
Having done it in a Z3M with terrible consumption and a tiny fuel tank also meant 300 miles between stops which was a PITA. Nice once in the mountains and lakes, where range isn't so much of an issue, and stopping for a long lunch, or mooch in a village really is a nice break.
So, I kinda get the sentiment, but can't see it panning out that way for me. You'd get there and then once there, the range and charge times drop away as an issue IMHO.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
20 million BEVs require around 6GW averaged power.This assumes charging is spread evenly amongst them and based on an annual average of 8000 miles.
This is less than 10% of UK installed capacity. If you allow for a reduction of electrical power consumption elsewhere due to the avoided fossil fuel production, processing and distribution, it could be around half that.
What numbers did you get?
Landcrab_Six said:
I think the pandemic has set back the transition away from ICE, though, as people are holding onto their older ICE cars for longer - lots are reluctant to sign up to finance for a £35k car right now.
I'm not sure. Certainly in the short term there might be a depression in car sales generally, but in the medium term I think the pandemic might help - with the accelerated move to WFH for a lot of people they might be looking at their drive way and thinking they don't really need two cars, and/or their usage has changed such that a BEV will easily cover their needs.Mike, it's a moot point that hydrogen might not be 100% green sourced at the moment. It's a means to an end. The endgame is for it to be generated using renewable energy and from water or greener sources but it's got to get there somehow. What's the big problem?
As I've said many times, we're ten years away from FCEV really taking off for passenger cars.
Whatever the FCEV manufacturers, fuel cell developers, ITM and the likes have on the market today is not a gauge of what it will look like in ten years time.
And speaking of disingenuous, did you really think BEVs could be supercharged to 100% from empty in half an hour?
Just to come back with an anecdote, RemarkLima linked to a guy who'd travelled 600 miles to the Alps after leaving on a full M3 battery. The guy charged 4 times over that distance.
Think about that.
4 visits to a charging point. Could've done it with maybe half those charger stops? It's his choice, whatever makes him comfortable, whatever breaks up the journey. No criticism.
Could be he hasn't the patience to stop for an hour to really fill the car to brimming. Could be he felt he might as well plug it in every time they fancied a coffee.
But it does point out a potential difference between BEV and FCEV fuelling patterns.
Because that journey would have needed only one, or maybe two at a push, refuelling stops in an FCEV.
In an ICE car I can stop on the M-way services park and go in for a coffee. I could pull off the motorway and get fuel only. I could do both. The link between parking up and fuelling isn't inherent to ICE or FCEV when it is with BEV.
The motivation to stop in a BEV may not be to fuel BUT you can probably guess that the car'll get plugged in anyway, because why not? It may turn out that BEVers might make more charging stops than the range of their BEV needs.
As I've said many times, we're ten years away from FCEV really taking off for passenger cars.
Whatever the FCEV manufacturers, fuel cell developers, ITM and the likes have on the market today is not a gauge of what it will look like in ten years time.
And speaking of disingenuous, did you really think BEVs could be supercharged to 100% from empty in half an hour?
Just to come back with an anecdote, RemarkLima linked to a guy who'd travelled 600 miles to the Alps after leaving on a full M3 battery. The guy charged 4 times over that distance.
Think about that.
4 visits to a charging point. Could've done it with maybe half those charger stops? It's his choice, whatever makes him comfortable, whatever breaks up the journey. No criticism.
Could be he hasn't the patience to stop for an hour to really fill the car to brimming. Could be he felt he might as well plug it in every time they fancied a coffee.
But it does point out a potential difference between BEV and FCEV fuelling patterns.
Because that journey would have needed only one, or maybe two at a push, refuelling stops in an FCEV.
In an ICE car I can stop on the M-way services park and go in for a coffee. I could pull off the motorway and get fuel only. I could do both. The link between parking up and fuelling isn't inherent to ICE or FCEV when it is with BEV.
The motivation to stop in a BEV may not be to fuel BUT you can probably guess that the car'll get plugged in anyway, because why not? It may turn out that BEVers might make more charging stops than the range of their BEV needs.
Edited by anonymous-user on Wednesday 28th October 00:09
Edited by anonymous-user on Wednesday 28th October 00:11
GT119 said:
And don’t forget that the overall annual electricity demand is falling steadily as well, having dropped 15% since 2007. This trend will most likely create all the headroom required to allow for BEVs coming on line.
It's not the overall capacity that matters - it's local capacity. That's where a lot of charging projects fall down.London is going to need potentially billions investing to get enough rapid charging capacity installed, as there's very little headroom on a local basis.
Outside of the UK, it's even more challenging, our grid is relatively over specified compared with the damp string supplying power in Southern Europe.
I had a choice of holding on until Q2 2021 for a company car, when we will have a full range of BEV options available - I wanted to get in this year when we're still allowed PHEVs, as a BEV as our main car would have been too much of a compromise given current infrastructure. (not least, trailing a cable across the pavement at home as I'm not parking my Porsche on the street to charge a company car)
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