Hydrogen is the future, not BEVs?
Discussion
DonkeyApple said:
Daddy Bamford is still trying to talk about hydrogen to help his son's bus company out but it's beginning to look like filling half a bus with gas canisters so it can only work as a bus at 50% customer capacity and then needing a massive local grant to procure and store the hydrogen in an urban environment where if Gary were to flick his fag in the wrong direction that city is going to loose half a dozen streets, is not a smart, commercially viable solution versus simply migrating all diesel buses slowly to EV via hybrid.
I'll take your word on most of that post but have you seen the Hydrogen trains, often in the US. I'm struggling to see why Trains don't seem to lose the fraction of the space as a bus does if your point is true, there are an increasing number of trains that cover long distances and look just like your regular commuter train in a fancy wrap. Stadler has recently set a record of nearly 3k km on one tank of hydrogen and Alstom has just completed a 3 month trial.Cars I can't see it, at the other end of the transportation size spectrum, trains I can (especially where electrificiation is a challenge), and in the middle I'd have thought buses and HGVs make suitable candidates.
It's horses for courses for me, its just applying it where it makes sense. And if bitcoin miners can claim green credentials because they use hyroelectic power that they say would otherwise go to waste, then so can hydrogen producers. Hydrogen production could be a very convenient way to balance the grid which has a real value
Edited by Gone fishing on Friday 19th April 10:22
Gone fishing said:
I'll take your word on most of that post but have you seen the Hydrogen trains, often in the US. I'm struggling to see why Trains don't seem to lose the fraction of the space as a bus does if your point is true, but there are an increasing number of trains that cover long distances and look just like your regular commuter train in a fancy wrap. Stadler has recently set a record of nearly 3k km on one tank of hydrogen and Alstom has just completed a 3 month trial.
Cars I can't see it, at the other end of the transportation size spectrum, trains I can (especially where electrificiation is a challenge), and in the middle I'd have thought buses and HGVs make suitable candidates.
It's horses for courses for me, its just applying it where it makes sense. And if bitcoin miners can claim green credentials because they use hyroelectic power that they say would otherwise go to waste, then so can hydrogen producers. Hydrogen production could be a very convenient way to balance the grid which has a real value
but to get anywhere near that, you need massive amounts of excess renewable power to make the hydrogen. i just can't see the scale needed.Cars I can't see it, at the other end of the transportation size spectrum, trains I can (especially where electrificiation is a challenge), and in the middle I'd have thought buses and HGVs make suitable candidates.
It's horses for courses for me, its just applying it where it makes sense. And if bitcoin miners can claim green credentials because they use hyroelectic power that they say would otherwise go to waste, then so can hydrogen producers. Hydrogen production could be a very convenient way to balance the grid which has a real value
Gone fishing said:
I'll take your word on most of that post but have you seen the Hydrogen trains, often in the US. I'm struggling to see why Trains don't seem to lose the fraction of the space as a bus does if your point is true, but there are an increasing number of trains that cover long distances and look just like your regular commuter train in a fancy wrap. Stadler has recently set a record of nearly 3k km on one tank of hydrogen and Alstom has just completed a 3 month trial.
Cars I can't see it, at the other end of the transportation size spectrum, trains I can (especially where electrificiation is a challenge), and in the middle I'd have thought buses and HGVs make suitable candidates.
It's horses for courses for me, its just applying it where it makes sense. And if bitcoin miners can claim green credentials because they use hyroelectic power that they say would otherwise go to waste, then so can hydrogen producers. Hydrogen production could be a very convenient way to balance the grid which has a real value
Horses for courses is the precise logic in this regard. Beyond extreme niche there is zero merit to using hydrogen to propel cars, the argument just falls down on multiple aspects and some of those will never be resolved. Conversely, there are genuine industrial and heavy transport cases where hydrogen could be a means to assist in decarbonising whether as a raw fuel or a building block to a fuel. For transport there is the primary hurdle of supply in that it'll take decades for there to be a genuine commercial supply that exceeds the primary use of replacing existing fossil fuel hydrogen which messes with any business case trying to secure funding to compete against alternative energy stores. Cars I can't see it, at the other end of the transportation size spectrum, trains I can (especially where electrificiation is a challenge), and in the middle I'd have thought buses and HGVs make suitable candidates.
It's horses for courses for me, its just applying it where it makes sense. And if bitcoin miners can claim green credentials because they use hyroelectic power that they say would otherwise go to waste, then so can hydrogen producers. Hydrogen production could be a very convenient way to balance the grid which has a real value
Gone fishing said:
I'll take your word on most of that post but have you seen the Hydrogen trains, often in the US.
Is that Still happening? Quite a few hydrogen trains have already been withdrawn from service.Gone fishing said:
I'm struggling to see why Trains don't seem to lose the fraction of the space as a bus does if your point is true, there are an increasing number of trains that cover long distances and look just like your regular commuter train in a fancy wrap. Stadler has recently set a record of nearly 3k km on one tank of hydrogen and Alstom has just completed a 3 month trial.
In appears the hydrogen power system takes up the entire central portion of the FLIRT H2.https://www.railadvent.co.uk/2024/03/stadler-sets-...
tamore said:
Gone fishing said:
I'll take your word on most of that post but have you seen the Hydrogen trains, often in the US. I'm struggling to see why Trains don't seem to lose the fraction of the space as a bus does if your point is true, but there are an increasing number of trains that cover long distances and look just like your regular commuter train in a fancy wrap. Stadler has recently set a record of nearly 3k km on one tank of hydrogen and Alstom has just completed a 3 month trial.
Cars I can't see it, at the other end of the transportation size spectrum, trains I can (especially where electrificiation is a challenge), and in the middle I'd have thought buses and HGVs make suitable candidates.
It's horses for courses for me, its just applying it where it makes sense. And if bitcoin miners can claim green credentials because they use hyroelectic power that they say would otherwise go to waste, then so can hydrogen producers. Hydrogen production could be a very convenient way to balance the grid which has a real value
but to get anywhere near that, you need massive amounts of excess renewable power to make the hydrogen. i just can't see the scale needed.Cars I can't see it, at the other end of the transportation size spectrum, trains I can (especially where electrificiation is a challenge), and in the middle I'd have thought buses and HGVs make suitable candidates.
It's horses for courses for me, its just applying it where it makes sense. And if bitcoin miners can claim green credentials because they use hyroelectic power that they say would otherwise go to waste, then so can hydrogen producers. Hydrogen production could be a very convenient way to balance the grid which has a real value
Evanivitch said:
Gone fishing said:
I'll take your word on most of that post but have you seen the Hydrogen trains, often in the US.
Is that Still happening? Quite a few hydrogen trains have already been withdrawn from service.Gone fishing said:
I'm struggling to see why Trains don't seem to lose the fraction of the space as a bus does if your point is true, there are an increasing number of trains that cover long distances and look just like your regular commuter train in a fancy wrap. Stadler has recently set a record of nearly 3k km on one tank of hydrogen and Alstom has just completed a 3 month trial.
In appears the hydrogen power system takes up the entire central portion of the FLIRT H2.https://www.railadvent.co.uk/2024/03/stadler-sets-...
rscott said:
Evanivitch said:
Gone fishing said:
I'll take your word on most of that post but have you seen the Hydrogen trains, often in the US.
Is that Still happening? Quite a few hydrogen trains have already been withdrawn from service.Gone fishing said:
I'm struggling to see why Trains don't seem to lose the fraction of the space as a bus does if your point is true, there are an increasing number of trains that cover long distances and look just like your regular commuter train in a fancy wrap. Stadler has recently set a record of nearly 3k km on one tank of hydrogen and Alstom has just completed a 3 month trial.
In appears the hydrogen power system takes up the entire central portion of the FLIRT H2.https://www.railadvent.co.uk/2024/03/stadler-sets-...
It makes me wonder what the f
k that hydrogen train is for. It's entirely pointless. If you can get electrical power to any train, anywhere on the network, why the hell would you want a train you have to fuel with anything 
the obsession with finding a replacement fuel, instead of just using electricity start to finish, is bizarre.100% electrification of all train lines is of course the ideal end goal, but is incredibly expensive to retrofit as you need to raise all the bridges, tunnels, deal with nimby’s etc.
This is where battery trains are the smart choice as it massively reduces the cost to electrify a line as only the easy bits need to be electrified. The hard parts, such as under bridges, through tunnels, difficult terrain, areas of natural beauty, etc. can be skipped as the train can simply run through those on battery power. And then it can pickup the catenary where available and run in electric whilst also charging itself back up.
I would argue that such a solution would end up being way cheaper than an H2 system through energy savings alone. Given H2 powertrains are only about 1/3 the efficiency of a direct electric/battery drivetrain.
This is where battery trains are the smart choice as it massively reduces the cost to electrify a line as only the easy bits need to be electrified. The hard parts, such as under bridges, through tunnels, difficult terrain, areas of natural beauty, etc. can be skipped as the train can simply run through those on battery power. And then it can pickup the catenary where available and run in electric whilst also charging itself back up.
I would argue that such a solution would end up being way cheaper than an H2 system through energy savings alone. Given H2 powertrains are only about 1/3 the efficiency of a direct electric/battery drivetrain.
dvs_dave said:
100% electrification of all train lines is of course the ideal end goal, but is incredibly expensive to retrofit as you need to raise all the bridges, tunnels, deal with nimby’s etc.
This is where battery trains are the smart choice as it massively reduces the cost to electrify a line as only the easy bits need to be electrified. The hard parts, such as under bridges, through tunnels, difficult terrain, areas of natural beauty, etc. can be skipped as the train can simply run through those on battery power. And then it can pickup the catenary where available and run in electric whilst also charging itself back up.
I would argue that such a solution would end up being way cheaper than an H2 system through energy savings alone. Given H2 powertrains are only about 1/3 the efficiency of a direct electric/battery drivetrain.
I think the solution being tested demonstrates that only a fraction of the length of each line needs to be electrified in the future - either by a few miles of overhead power at intervals or very powerful chargers at stations.This is where battery trains are the smart choice as it massively reduces the cost to electrify a line as only the easy bits need to be electrified. The hard parts, such as under bridges, through tunnels, difficult terrain, areas of natural beauty, etc. can be skipped as the train can simply run through those on battery power. And then it can pickup the catenary where available and run in electric whilst also charging itself back up.
I would argue that such a solution would end up being way cheaper than an H2 system through energy savings alone. Given H2 powertrains are only about 1/3 the efficiency of a direct electric/battery drivetrain.
95% of all existing overhead power infrastructure could probably be got rid of once the battery solutions are further developed.
TheDeuce said:
I think the solution being tested demonstrates that only a fraction of the length of each line needs to be electrified in the future - either by a few miles of overhead power at intervals or very powerful chargers at stations.
95% of all existing overhead power infrastructure could probably be got rid of once the battery solutions are further developed.
Yes, that’ll work for short range regular start/stop commuter trains. For longer range intercity/freight though, more strategically located catenary would be needed. But it’ll still only be necessary in the areas where it’s easy to install with no changes to other rail infrastructure needed to allow it.95% of all existing overhead power infrastructure could probably be got rid of once the battery solutions are further developed.
tamore said:
TheDeuce said:
the obsession with finding a replacement fuel, instead of just using electricity start to finish, is bizarre.
the whole energy transition debate in a nutshell.Don't get me wrong, I totally understand why those soaking up the R&D grants are happy to make a hydrogen powered train and talk about a hydrogen future... But what is motivating the general public to take the nonsense seriously..?? Why are people so desperate to keep fuel? Fuel is annoying, it's expensive, messy, and inefficient.
rscott said:
Far more sensible to install battery packs on the trains and have fast charging at stations. GWR are currently trialling a system now which can recharge the train in 3.5 minutes - https://news.gwr.com/news/great-western-railways-i... .
And implement overhead power (or perhaps even return to third rail?) where it is safe and economic to do so, and avoid it in Victorian tunnels under rivers, renowned for their constant water ingress...TheDeuce said:
tamore said:
TheDeuce said:
the obsession with finding a replacement fuel, instead of just using electricity start to finish, is bizarre.
the whole energy transition debate in a nutshell.Don't get me wrong, I totally understand why those soaking up the R&D grants are happy to make a hydrogen powered train and talk about a hydrogen future... But what is motivating the general public to take the nonsense seriously..?? Why are people so desperate to keep fuel? Fuel is annoying, it's expensive, messy, and inefficient.
Obviously it’s a ridiculous stance to have for anyone not stupid enough to be radicalized by the retarded right wing media, but there you go. There’s way more stupid people in the world than not.
tamore said:
yep. absolutely laughable though. i'm conservative in my politics all day long, but the transition to an electrically dominated world where renewables supply the vast majority of it is just a no brainer. it makes sense on every level.
Similar here.My long-standing observation is the psychology of the word 'battery' and what it subconsciously triggers in the minds of, generally speaking, older people and particularly men.
There is a deep-seated fear of them, possibly because the word itself triggers some sort of fight of flight response.
There are two things I've jokingly suggested a couple of times in this sub-forum, a couple of tricks the EV industry missed at the get-go that I sometimes wonder how things might have panned out differently.
EV batteries should have been called 'macho packs' and their capacity measured in Megajoules.
Or just capped finance secured against a vehicle at £40k for ICE and wound it down each year. No need for any subsidies eco waffle, politics or terrorising of the less affluent, no bans etc. Consumers wanting to spend more on a car would have just had to opt for an EV, meanwhile the ICE fleet would have just become steadily more economical. The whole car market is controlled by credit so credit was the blatantly obvious tool to use to drive the shift.
tr3a said:
dvs_dave said:
There’s way more stupid people in the world than not.
But at least they're happy
You can tell stupid a mile off because they need everything to stay the same in order to function. Otherwise, it all becomes a stress and an upset... Oh bother.
DonkeyApple said:
Or just capped finance secured against a vehicle at £40k for ICE and wound it down each year. No need for any subsidies eco waffle, politics or terrorising of the less affluent, no bans etc. Consumers wanting to spend more on a car would have just had to opt for an EV, meanwhile the ICE fleet would have just become steadily more economical. The whole car market is controlled by credit so credit was the blatantly obvious tool to use to drive the shift.
It is odd though, superior new technologies can generally be successful on their own merits without the old fashioned technology needing to be banned or legislated against. Even with the huge subsidy of almost tax free electricity being freely available, EV sales aren't exactly booming.We have a Tesla so I'm absolutely not anti-EV for the right use case but I do think there's still a lot of work to be done on the product before it's spectacularly better in the same way that a car is over a horse or a CD is over a cassette tape.
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