Hydrogen is the future, not BEVs?
Discussion
ZesPak said:
98elise said:
EV's are perfect for Taxi work as their peak efficiency is at low speeds. For a Tesla it's something like 25mph.
Same for ICE. ICE have their "optimal engine efficiency rpm", and a higher speed would also result for a big aero hit.Where EV's shine compared to ICE is that, mainly due to regen, they take a much smaller hit when accelerating and decelerating in traffic. Also, while having an optimal motor RPM, it's much less relevant than with ICE.
These two factors are the main reasons that an ICE mpg is higher on highway, while an EV efficiency seems better in traffic.
Ideally, both would best be run at a constant 25mph. In reality, EV's are just much better at handling real life scenarios.
Edited by ZesPak on Thursday 15th February 10:11
Issues such as operators not living near to where they work, such as all the black cab drivers who have moved out to the Essex coast or not having home charging because they are stored in a shed at the end of their gangmaster's garden near Heathrow are simply resolved by swapping those operators for new ones.
There's no pratical reason to not push for all urban taxis to be pure EV quite aggressively which is arguably what is occurring in many cities.
Hydrogen would also work on paper as a means of energy store for EV taxis in that they can utilise centralised private refuelling, have zero need for high performance, would allow for 24/7 asset sweating and as the gas would be consumed immediately less toxic to the environment. However, it would never work as no city wants a large hydrogen store in the middle of it nor refilling hydrogen being driven through the streets. Plus, as the fuel would very obviously always be more expensive than the raw ingredient it is made from it will always be more expensive so no business would select a core fuel cost that is multiples higher than their competitor.
So that takes us back to hydrogen being better than electricity in remote or extreme environments where electricity is hard to transport or batteries hard to be efficient. But then hydrogen has the sleight issue that it's then competing against diesel which is much cheaper and more efficient and where its downside of being polluting is barely of any relevance.
Meanwhile every molecule of green hydrogen wasted on green washing is a molecule not used to decarbonise industry and as the West distills less and less crude for transport fuel there will be less and less grey hydrogen byproduct meaning more and more demand for green hydrogen from incumbent needs.
More evidence (as if f it was needed!) that hydrogen is the weapon of choice for those predisposed to shenanigans and high jinx involving funding.
https://www.hydrogeninsight.com/policy/hydrogen-sc...
https://www.hydrogeninsight.com/policy/hydrogen-sc...
DonkeyApple said:
So that takes us back to hydrogen being better than electricity in remote or extreme environments where electricity is hard to transport or batteries hard to be efficient.
And yet another study appears with the same conclusion:https://www.hydrogeninsight.com/analysis/hydrogen-...
“A computational model that considers multiple EU energy system transformation pathways has shown that the best way to achieve the EU climate neutrality target [of reaching net-zero emissions by 2050] is for policymakers to prioritise direct electrification for passenger cars and low-temperature heating, and indirect electrification via hydrogen and synthetic fuels for aviation, shipping, chemical industry, and electricity storage”
I hope nobody paid good money for that, given that reading this thread is free.
And once again the issue of fugitive feedstock/product raises its ugly head:
"The study does, however, point out that it did not take into account the climate impact from hydrogen leakage — H2 itself is a potent greenhouse gas. A 'non-negligible' amount of hydrogen leakage and its impact on net-zero “would affect our results and might lead, in particular, to a smaller role of direct hydrogen use."
GT9 said:
More evidence (as if f it was needed!) that hydrogen is the weapon of choice for those predisposed to shenanigans and high jinx involving funding.
https://www.hydrogeninsight.com/policy/hydrogen-sc...
They’re all boondoggle projects. https://www.hydrogeninsight.com/policy/hydrogen-sc...
The number of hydrogen projects seeking pre IPO funding via the schmuck pensioner money market does appear to have dried up now. What's interesting is that NH3 projects look to be starting to appear. NH3 is the potential holy grail in that it solves many of the problems of H. Plus, the existing industries can't switch to GH (because it doesn't exist industrially and won't for many years) but can change the colour of fossil fuel hydrogen to any of the others.
As a wonder gas that will save the planet and allow the old and stoopid to keep driving trucks they don't have in cities they don't live in, it's looking pretty good.
What's actually genuinely interesting about NH3 is that we do need to use every molecule of GH produced over the next 20 years to clean that industry up, which is why HIF knows their production once scaleable will be going to support the German ammonia industry not wasted on eFuels other than to allow VW et al to keep racing cars without being cancelled.
But I'm not sure there won't be a catastrophic upheaval in this market as these industrial plants, like nearly all industrial plants are located based on the proximity of at least one of their raw materials. In this case electricity and then hydrogen. Nitrogen can be obtained anywhere on the planet so is generally irrelevant.
The ammonia industry has locations in Europe specifically because Europe has had abundant fossil fuel energy and abundant fossil fuel hydrogen.
Green ammonia obviously specifically uses green hydrogen and green electricity. Neither of which are abundantly available at or near the existing fossil fuel defined industrial locations. Germany has had to go all the way to South America to find potential for abundant excess green energy.
And I think there lies in the clue to a painful Western reality which is that new energy is creating a resource environment specifically identical to the original drivers of colonialism as the very planetary characteristics that tend to define why some nations became developed and others remained undeveloped tend to be the exact same characteristics for new energy production efficiencies. And this time we can't just rush in and seize this resource potential which means many of Europe's legacy, dirty industrial manufacturing could easily be out completed by the developing nations who become the entities with access to the cheap and abundant energy required.
Anyway, as the hype over Hydrogen being the cure for everything from piles to a neighbour that's the wrong colour, I have a feeling that as more and more NH3 prospectus arrive in door steps and as more journos get wined and dined by brokers to write innocuous, innocent third party articles that accidentally promote the penny share machine we could start to see Hydrogen bounce back but in a 4 way with a big hunky Nitrogen atom.
As a wonder gas that will save the planet and allow the old and stoopid to keep driving trucks they don't have in cities they don't live in, it's looking pretty good.
What's actually genuinely interesting about NH3 is that we do need to use every molecule of GH produced over the next 20 years to clean that industry up, which is why HIF knows their production once scaleable will be going to support the German ammonia industry not wasted on eFuels other than to allow VW et al to keep racing cars without being cancelled.
But I'm not sure there won't be a catastrophic upheaval in this market as these industrial plants, like nearly all industrial plants are located based on the proximity of at least one of their raw materials. In this case electricity and then hydrogen. Nitrogen can be obtained anywhere on the planet so is generally irrelevant.
The ammonia industry has locations in Europe specifically because Europe has had abundant fossil fuel energy and abundant fossil fuel hydrogen.
Green ammonia obviously specifically uses green hydrogen and green electricity. Neither of which are abundantly available at or near the existing fossil fuel defined industrial locations. Germany has had to go all the way to South America to find potential for abundant excess green energy.
And I think there lies in the clue to a painful Western reality which is that new energy is creating a resource environment specifically identical to the original drivers of colonialism as the very planetary characteristics that tend to define why some nations became developed and others remained undeveloped tend to be the exact same characteristics for new energy production efficiencies. And this time we can't just rush in and seize this resource potential which means many of Europe's legacy, dirty industrial manufacturing could easily be out completed by the developing nations who become the entities with access to the cheap and abundant energy required.
Anyway, as the hype over Hydrogen being the cure for everything from piles to a neighbour that's the wrong colour, I have a feeling that as more and more NH3 prospectus arrive in door steps and as more journos get wined and dined by brokers to write innocuous, innocent third party articles that accidentally promote the penny share machine we could start to see Hydrogen bounce back but in a 4 way with a big hunky Nitrogen atom.
Toyota is offering colossal discounts on their FCEV in California:
https://jalopnik.com/toyota-offers-40-000-discount...
As that's the market with the "best" hydrogen infrastructure, aiui, it doesn't look good: $40,000 off list; $15,000 fuel subsidy; 0% finance. They are close to paying people to take them away!
https://jalopnik.com/toyota-offers-40-000-discount...
As that's the market with the "best" hydrogen infrastructure, aiui, it doesn't look good: $40,000 off list; $15,000 fuel subsidy; 0% finance. They are close to paying people to take them away!
Mikehig said:
Toyota is offering colossal discounts on their FCEV in California:
https://jalopnik.com/toyota-offers-40-000-discount...
As that's the market with the "best" hydrogen infrastructure, aiui, it doesn't look good: $40,000 off list; $15,000 fuel subsidy; 0% finance. They are close to paying people to take them away!
There has always been huge discounts and grants on the Mirai, so that they have basically been giving them away for years. Sales remain tiny.https://jalopnik.com/toyota-offers-40-000-discount...
As that's the market with the "best" hydrogen infrastructure, aiui, it doesn't look good: $40,000 off list; $15,000 fuel subsidy; 0% finance. They are close to paying people to take them away!
Toyota are losing a packet on each one they sell.
98elise said:
There has always been huge discounts and grants on the Mirai, so that they have basically been giving them away for years. Sales remain tiny.
Toyota are losing a packet on each one they sell.
Hilarious that some on here hold them up as geniuses for following an alternative path. Toyoda needs to step aside before the brand goes the way of BlockbusterToyota are losing a packet on each one they sell.
D4rez said:
Hilarious that some on here hold them up as geniuses for following an alternative path. Toyoda needs to step aside before the brand goes the way of Blockbuster
It's just a small segment of their business and they're only putting a small amount of money into it. It makes sense to look at the car market from Toyota's perspective. They sell millions upon millions of cars globally every year but generally to the least affluent end of the new car market. This is the consumer segment that cannot yet switch to EV nor is expected to for well over a decade. Toyota also have by far the largest data set for how hybrids are used. Plus, they sell into countries where the infrastructure for charging battery electric cars is multiple decades away because these nations, while we politely refer to them today as 'developing nations' are in fact kleptocratic third world dung holes still and no attempt to rebrand will change their constant inability to create reliable utility infrastructures when all the money to do is sent to Switzerland.
Using a hydrogen gas that doesn't yet commercially exist yet and when it does will be bought up by the existing hydrogen industry in almost all developed nations and where using a chemical battery is very clearly the smarter solution despite just how rubbish they persist in being is clearly a comical argument that borders on the mental. But from Toyota's perspective they're just putting a bit of money into an alternate energy storage solution for EVs to have on the shelf for the third world where we desperately need to decarbonise their transport but it won't matter how much battery EVs improve the fundamental problem of there not being many plug sockets and many of the plug sockets that do exist don't have any electricity going to them because the country is a s
thole being asset stripped, raped and exploited by inbred, indigenous cretins. And while you are using Western grants, subsidies and tax benefits to develop this potential energy storage solution for use in third world dumps why not get a bit of cash flow in from some dumbass Western mug punters who'll buy anything if you offer a big enough discount.
To be honest, I see very clearly why Toyota and others would do work on having a GH solution but don't get why consumers in developed nations such as the U.K. get round to thinking it's for them.
DonkeyApple said:
It's just a small segment of their business and they're only putting a small amount of money into it.
It makes sense to look at the car market from Toyota's perspective. They sell millions upon millions of cars globally every year but generally to the least affluent end of the new car market. This is the consumer segment that cannot yet switch to EV nor is expected to for well over a decade. Toyota also have by far the largest data set for how hybrids are used. Plus, they sell into countries where the infrastructure for charging battery electric cars is multiple decades away because these nations, while we politely refer to them today as 'developing nations' are in fact kleptocratic third world dung holes still and no attempt to rebrand will change their constant inability to create reliable utility infrastructures when all the money to do is sent to Switzerland.
Using a hydrogen gas that doesn't yet commercially exist yet and when it does will be bought up by the existing hydrogen industry in almost all developed nations and where using a chemical battery is very clearly the smarter solution despite just how rubbish they persist in being is clearly a comical argument that borders on the mental. But from Toyota's perspective they're just putting a bit of money into an alternate energy storage solution for EVs to have on the shelf for the third world where we desperately need to decarbonise their transport but it won't matter how much battery EVs improve the fundamental problem of there not being many plug sockets and many of the plug sockets that do exist don't have any electricity going to them because the country is a sthole being asset stripped, raped and exploited by inbred, indigenous cretins.
And while you are using Western grants, subsidies and tax benefits to develop this potential energy storage solution for use in third world dumps why not get a bit of cash flow in from some dumbass Western mug punters who'll buy anything if you offer a big enough discount.
To be honest, I see very clearly why Toyota and others would do work on having a GH solution but don't get why consumers in developed nations such as the U.K. get round to thinking it's for them.
A good post that, I enjoyed it. It makes sense to look at the car market from Toyota's perspective. They sell millions upon millions of cars globally every year but generally to the least affluent end of the new car market. This is the consumer segment that cannot yet switch to EV nor is expected to for well over a decade. Toyota also have by far the largest data set for how hybrids are used. Plus, they sell into countries where the infrastructure for charging battery electric cars is multiple decades away because these nations, while we politely refer to them today as 'developing nations' are in fact kleptocratic third world dung holes still and no attempt to rebrand will change their constant inability to create reliable utility infrastructures when all the money to do is sent to Switzerland.
Using a hydrogen gas that doesn't yet commercially exist yet and when it does will be bought up by the existing hydrogen industry in almost all developed nations and where using a chemical battery is very clearly the smarter solution despite just how rubbish they persist in being is clearly a comical argument that borders on the mental. But from Toyota's perspective they're just putting a bit of money into an alternate energy storage solution for EVs to have on the shelf for the third world where we desperately need to decarbonise their transport but it won't matter how much battery EVs improve the fundamental problem of there not being many plug sockets and many of the plug sockets that do exist don't have any electricity going to them because the country is a s
thole being asset stripped, raped and exploited by inbred, indigenous cretins. And while you are using Western grants, subsidies and tax benefits to develop this potential energy storage solution for use in third world dumps why not get a bit of cash flow in from some dumbass Western mug punters who'll buy anything if you offer a big enough discount.
To be honest, I see very clearly why Toyota and others would do work on having a GH solution but don't get why consumers in developed nations such as the U.K. get round to thinking it's for them.
DonkeyApple said:
It's just a small segment of their business and they're only putting a small amount of money into it.
It makes sense to look at the car market from Toyota's perspective. They sell millions upon millions of cars globally every year but generally to the least affluent end of the new car market. This is the consumer segment that cannot yet switch to EV nor is expected to for well over a decade. Toyota also have by far the largest data set for how hybrids are used. Plus, they sell into countries where the infrastructure for charging battery electric cars is multiple decades away because these nations, while we politely refer to them today as 'developing nations' are in fact kleptocratic third world dung holes still and no attempt to rebrand will change their constant inability to create reliable utility infrastructures when all the money to do is sent to Switzerland.
Using a hydrogen gas that doesn't yet commercially exist yet and when it does will be bought up by the existing hydrogen industry in almost all developed nations and where using a chemical battery is very clearly the smarter solution despite just how rubbish they persist in being is clearly a comical argument that borders on the mental. But from Toyota's perspective they're just putting a bit of money into an alternate energy storage solution for EVs to have on the shelf for the third world where we desperately need to decarbonise their transport but it won't matter how much battery EVs improve the fundamental problem of there not being many plug sockets and many of the plug sockets that do exist don't have any electricity going to them because the country is a sthole being asset stripped, raped and exploited by inbred, indigenous cretins.
And while you are using Western grants, subsidies and tax benefits to develop this potential energy storage solution for use in third world dumps why not get a bit of cash flow in from some dumbass Western mug punters who'll buy anything if you offer a big enough discount.
To be honest, I see very clearly why Toyota and others would do work on having a GH solution but don't get why consumers in developed nations such as the U.K. get round to thinking it's for them.
Not sure if true - you can see the sales figures here:It makes sense to look at the car market from Toyota's perspective. They sell millions upon millions of cars globally every year but generally to the least affluent end of the new car market. This is the consumer segment that cannot yet switch to EV nor is expected to for well over a decade. Toyota also have by far the largest data set for how hybrids are used. Plus, they sell into countries where the infrastructure for charging battery electric cars is multiple decades away because these nations, while we politely refer to them today as 'developing nations' are in fact kleptocratic third world dung holes still and no attempt to rebrand will change their constant inability to create reliable utility infrastructures when all the money to do is sent to Switzerland.
Using a hydrogen gas that doesn't yet commercially exist yet and when it does will be bought up by the existing hydrogen industry in almost all developed nations and where using a chemical battery is very clearly the smarter solution despite just how rubbish they persist in being is clearly a comical argument that borders on the mental. But from Toyota's perspective they're just putting a bit of money into an alternate energy storage solution for EVs to have on the shelf for the third world where we desperately need to decarbonise their transport but it won't matter how much battery EVs improve the fundamental problem of there not being many plug sockets and many of the plug sockets that do exist don't have any electricity going to them because the country is a s
thole being asset stripped, raped and exploited by inbred, indigenous cretins. And while you are using Western grants, subsidies and tax benefits to develop this potential energy storage solution for use in third world dumps why not get a bit of cash flow in from some dumbass Western mug punters who'll buy anything if you offer a big enough discount.
To be honest, I see very clearly why Toyota and others would do work on having a GH solution but don't get why consumers in developed nations such as the U.K. get round to thinking it's for them.
https://global.toyota/en/company/profile/productio...
- they sell more Lexus than Daihatsu (their "value" brand aimed at the less affluent)
- sales to kelptocratic dung holes are quite low. All of Africa is 240k (out of 10.3m) Pakistan 20k. non Gulf Middle East 120k. I guess you could argue that Philippines is about there as well (200k). But (for example) my last trip to see family in Indonesia, there were a surprising number of EV around - mostly KIA.
Plus the obvious point that if EV aren't useful due infrastructure, hydrogen will be even less useful. Aussie outback farmers and NGOs in Afganistan will probably still be buying new Landcruiser 70s in 2035...
GT9 said:
1 in 50 people are into BDSM.
EVs are expected to outnumber hydrogen cars by about the same.
There will always be a small community of buyers actively seeking out the most painful experience.
Just to clarify, you mean 1:50 ratio globally not in the UK? Otherwise that seems a crazily high number of hydrogen vehicles.EVs are expected to outnumber hydrogen cars by about the same.
There will always be a small community of buyers actively seeking out the most painful experience.
DonkeyApple said:
Plus, they sell into countries where the infrastructure for charging battery electric cars is multiple decades away because these nations, while we politely refer to them today as 'developing nations' are in fact kleptocratic third world dung holes still and no attempt to rebrand will change their constant inability to create reliable utility infrastructures when all the money to do is sent to Switzerland.
That money is just resting in our accounts!</Father Ted>
Edited by Michael_B on Saturday 2nd March 22:23
Q1 sales down 70% in the US...
https://insideevs.com/news/716100/us-hydrogen-car-...
That's with the huge discounts available where they are virtually giving them away! If I could get the same discounts on BEV's I would replace all 3 of our cars in a heartbeat!
https://insideevs.com/news/716100/us-hydrogen-car-...
That's with the huge discounts available where they are virtually giving them away! If I could get the same discounts on BEV's I would replace all 3 of our cars in a heartbeat!
98elise said:
Q1 sales down 70% in the US...
https://insideevs.com/news/716100/us-hydrogen-car-...
That's with the huge discounts available where they are virtually giving them away! If I could get the same discounts on BEV's I would replace all 3 of our cars in a heartbeat!
No doubt driven off the back of this; Shell closing all its existing and then cancelling a planned 48 new H2 filling locations. https://insideevs.com/news/716100/us-hydrogen-car-...
That's with the huge discounts available where they are virtually giving them away! If I could get the same discounts on BEV's I would replace all 3 of our cars in a heartbeat!
California’s Hydrogen Economy Dealt A Hammer Blow By Shell’s Exit
Pretty dire prospects that you’d have to be mental to buy into it, even with the discounts. You’d be better off with a Fisker! Lol
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