EVs and Motorways

[Fastdruid]

DonkeyApple said:

mikeiow said:

Those who plan 300miles round trip travel with zero stops and a day's work don't sound overly safe in my mind...but then, I am getting on a bit now!

Don't forget that would 150 miles out. Stop. Carry out the job you've travelled there to do and then return 150 miles. If you lived quite close to the motorway network then each leg is going to be not much more than two hours.

I think it would be fair to say that if someone can't concentrate for such a short period then should they be doing a job which requires that 'skill'?

There does seem to be this obsession with the EV evangelists that everyone is planning on doing massive 5 hour 300Mi trips every day and hence defending the lack of range by "they'd want a stop anyway".

A *far* more realistic scenario is that 150Mi there, 150Mi back in a day. No stops, nowhere to recharge at the destination (and even when they're "close" there is the risk of them being broken/in use, having to move the car again once its full etc).

[DonkeyApple]

Fastdruid said:

There does seem to be this obsession with the EV evangelists that everyone is planning on doing massive 5 hour 300Mi trips every day and hence defending the lack of range by "they'd want a stop anyway".

A *far* more realistic scenario is that 150Mi there, 150Mi back in a day. No stops, nowhere to recharge at the destination (and even when they're "close" there is the risk of them being broken/in use, having to move the car again once its full etc).

Yes, but on the other side the ICE freedom fighters also suspend reality by believing that mystical Lizard people are forcing them to buy a £70k EV today, right now and that somehow these lizard people have rendered their ICE suddenly unusable.

The reality is that there are thick people and will fully thick people on both sides, there are those easily tricked into buying consumer goods for whom to recognise the failings of those goods would undermine the personal security gained from those decisions. And there are those who just can't work out really basic stuff like dates and are easily whipped up like Jeremy Kyle victims.

Most people, from the thick to the intelligent just look at the alternate type of vehicle and will get one of it works for them and wait for years until one does while being pretty agnostic to the change.

The OP seems to be in the same position as most rational folk. Aware of EVs, aware of the advantages. Aware of the disadvantages. And just interested in weighing up whether one would work today of whether to wait for tomorrow. One would be foolish not to from now on, each time you have a car change looming.

[SWoll]

Fastdruid said:

DonkeyApple said:

mikeiow said:

Those who plan 300miles round trip travel with zero stops and a day's work don't sound overly safe in my mind...but then, I am getting on a bit now!

Don't forget that would 150 miles out. Stop. Carry out the job you've travelled there to do and then return 150 miles. If you lived quite close to the motorway network then each leg is going to be not much more than two hours.

I think it would be fair to say that if someone can't concentrate for such a short period then should they be doing a job which requires that 'skill'?

There does seem to be this obsession with the EV evangelists that everyone is planning on doing massive 5 hour 300Mi trips every day and hence defending the lack of range by "they'd want a stop anyway".

A *far* more realistic scenario is that 150Mi there, 150Mi back in a day. No stops, nowhere to recharge at the destination (and even when they're "close" there is the risk of them being broken/in use, having to move the car again once its full etc).

Why no stops? In a lot of EV's that would require a 10 minute top up at any number of rapid chargers that will likely be available en-route.

It's like everything else in life, if you want the benefits of EV for the vast majority of trips then occasionally you'll probably have to put up with a little inconvenience.

[DonkeyApple]

SWoll said:

Why no stops? In a lot of EV's that would require a 10 minute top up at any number of rapid chargers that will likely be available en-route.

It's like everything else in life, if you want the benefits of EV for the vast majority of trips then occasionally you'll probably have to put up with a little inconvenience.

I don't think anyone would disagree. But this particular thread is about a scenario where that would potentially be every single working day which obviously no sane person would tollerate.

I think we probably all agree that for the majority of people such a journey is relatively anomalous and so easy to tollerate a bit of inconvenience for all the other gains.

[SWoll]

DonkeyApple said:

SWoll said:

Why no stops? In a lot of EV's that would require a 10 minute top up at any number of rapid chargers that will likely be available en-route.

It's like everything else in life, if you want the benefits of EV for the vast majority of trips then occasionally you'll probably have to put up with a little inconvenience.

I don't think anyone would disagree. But this particular thread is about a scenario where that would potentially be every single working day which obviously no sane person would tollerate.

I think we probably all agree that for the majority of people such a journey is relatively anomalous and so easy to tollerate a bit of inconvenience for all the other gains.

10 minutes per day to save a considerable amount on fuel costs monthly and enjoy the other benefits of running an EV?

300 miles per day at 40mpg would cost you £50-60 at current prices, or over £1k a month.

Charge at home for the first 250 miles and then publicly for the final 50 every day and it could cost < £10 in electricity, that's a huge saving every month?

Spending 5+ hours a day driving 5 days a week is the real issue here, an additional 10 minutes to save the equivalent of a mortgage payment every month would seem a fair trade to me.

[Fastdruid]

SWoll said:

Fastdruid said:

DonkeyApple said:

mikeiow said:

Those who plan 300miles round trip travel with zero stops and a day's work don't sound overly safe in my mind...but then, I am getting on a bit now!

Don't forget that would 150 miles out. Stop. Carry out the job you've travelled there to do and then return 150 miles. If you lived quite close to the motorway network then each leg is going to be not much more than two hours.

I think it would be fair to say that if someone can't concentrate for such a short period then should they be doing a job which requires that 'skill'?

There does seem to be this obsession with the EV evangelists that everyone is planning on doing massive 5 hour 300Mi trips every day and hence defending the lack of range by "they'd want a stop anyway".

A *far* more realistic scenario is that 150Mi there, 150Mi back in a day. No stops, nowhere to recharge at the destination (and even when they're "close" there is the risk of them being broken/in use, having to move the car again once its full etc).

Why no stops? In a lot of EV's that would require a 10 minute top up at any number of rapid chargers that will likely be available en-route.

It's like everything else in life, if you want the benefits of EV for the vast majority of trips then occasionally you'll probably have to put up with a little inconvenience.

Personally because there really isn't that much benefit[1] when doing only a few k/year and they're bloody expensive for anything with a decent range. I don't want to pay a fortune to then have to be spending my time hanging about in service stations.

Obviously if you're doing mega miles or it's a company car and hence have BIK problems etc its very different.


[1] As I put in a different thread, even if electricity was free and I bought the very very cheapest second hand EV I could the payback for me would be 10 years and I really don't think an already 9 year old EV would last another 10 years (from corrosion / other issues not even concerns over the battery).

[SWoll]

Fastdruid said:

SWoll said:

Fastdruid said:

DonkeyApple said:

mikeiow said:

Those who plan 300miles round trip travel with zero stops and a day's work don't sound overly safe in my mind...but then, I am getting on a bit now!

Don't forget that would 150 miles out. Stop. Carry out the job you've travelled there to do and then return 150 miles. If you lived quite close to the motorway network then each leg is going to be not much more than two hours.

I think it would be fair to say that if someone can't concentrate for such a short period then should they be doing a job which requires that 'skill'?

There does seem to be this obsession with the EV evangelists that everyone is planning on doing massive 5 hour 300Mi trips every day and hence defending the lack of range by "they'd want a stop anyway".

A *far* more realistic scenario is that 150Mi there, 150Mi back in a day. No stops, nowhere to recharge at the destination (and even when they're "close" there is the risk of them being broken/in use, having to move the car again once its full etc).

Why no stops? In a lot of EV's that would require a 10 minute top up at any number of rapid chargers that will likely be available en-route.

It's like everything else in life, if you want the benefits of EV for the vast majority of trips then occasionally you'll probably have to put up with a little inconvenience.

Personally because there really isn't that much benefit[1] when doing only a few k/year and they're bloody expensive for anything with a decent range. I don't want to pay a fortune to then have to be spending my time hanging about in service stations.

Obviously if you're doing mega miles or it's a company car and hence have BIK problems etc its very different.


[1] As I put in a different thread, even if electricity was free and I bought the very very cheapest second hand EV I could the payback for me would be 10 years and I really don't think an already 9 year old EV would last another 10 years (from corrosion / other issues not even concerns over the battery).

OK, so completely different reasoning and scenario to what is being discussed. Fair enough.

[IJWS15]

What still puzzles me is that an EV would be £70k to use a figure quoted above.

My ICE car cost new £32k.

Assuming a zero charge cost for an EV I would have to run an EV for 27 years to save £38k of fuel. While the EV may last longer than an ICE car it won't last that long.

At the moment I fill the car about once a month, sometimes less and last fill cost £94 for 830 miles. When I got out of it last time it moved (Sunday) the total of miles on tank and range left was approx 1030 Miles.

I could get by with a Tesla as we tend to stop for breaks on long trips (which would allow charging) but the economics of an EV don't add up.

Just wait for the electricity supply companies to start passing on the cost of upgrading the networks to support all the demand created by charging EVs.

[SWoll]

IJWS15 said:

What still puzzles me is that an EV would be £70k to use a figure quoted above.

My ICE car cost new £32k.

Assuming a zero charge cost for an EV I would have to run an EV for 27 years to save £38k of fuel. While the EV may last longer than an ICE car it won't last that long.

At the moment I fill the car about once a month, sometimes less and last fill cost £94 for 830 miles. When I got out of it last time it moved (Sunday) the total of miles on tank and range left was approx 1030 Miles.

I could get by with a Tesla as we tend to stop for breaks on long trips (which would allow charging) but the economics of an EV don't add up.

Just wait for the electricity supply companies to start passing on the cost of upgrading the networks to support all the demand created by charging EVs.

What do you mean an EV would be £70k? There are any number of new EV's for < £30k.

What is the £32k ICE car you are comparing to, as I guarantee the equivalent EV isn't £70k.

[Fastdruid]

SWoll said:

IJWS15 said:

What still puzzles me is that an EV would be £70k to use a figure quoted above.

My ICE car cost new £32k.

Assuming a zero charge cost for an EV I would have to run an EV for 27 years to save £38k of fuel. While the EV may last longer than an ICE car it won't last that long.

At the moment I fill the car about once a month, sometimes less and last fill cost £94 for 830 miles. When I got out of it last time it moved (Sunday) the total of miles on tank and range left was approx 1030 Miles.

I could get by with a Tesla as we tend to stop for breaks on long trips (which would allow charging) but the economics of an EV don't add up.

Just wait for the electricity supply companies to start passing on the cost of upgrading the networks to support all the demand created by charging EVs.

What do you mean an EV would be £70k? There are any number of new EV's for < £30k.

What is the £32k ICE car you are comparing to, as I guarantee the equivalent EV isn't £70k.

It is if you want some range!

[SWoll]

Fastdruid said:

It is if you want some range!

A Hyundai Kona or Kia Niro EV will do 250 real world miles for <£35k.

[DonkeyApple]

SWoll said:

10 minutes per day to save a considerable amount on fuel costs monthly and enjoy the other benefits of running an EV?

300 miles per day at 40mpg would cost you £50-60 at current prices, or over £1k a month.

Charge at home for the first 250 miles and then publicly for the final 50 every day and it could cost < £10 in electricity, that's a huge saving every month?

Spending 5+ hours a day driving 5 days a week is the real issue here, an additional 10 minutes to save the equivalent of a mortgage payment every month would seem a fair trade to me.

Depends on who is paying though.

For example:

The HMRC mileage rate for 2021/2022 year
The 2021 rates are:

45p per mile for cars and vans on the first 10,000 miles travelled (25 pence over 10,000 miles)
4p per mile for fully electric cars

For 300 miles:

£135 v £12

I can't see how an EV could ever be cheaper under those particular conditions and that's if you can find a lease that would allow that sort of mileage.

Your stop really wouldn't be ten mins and you'd do it on the first part of the journey so that it wasn't done on your time.

The firms you were visiting will all eventually have chargers for such customers which instantly solves the issue but at the moment you'd be mad to be fannying about with an EV for such an extreme driving routine.

Edited by DonkeyApple on Friday 18th March 15:26

[Fastdruid]

SWoll said:

Fastdruid said:

It is if you want some range!

A Hyundai Kona or Kia Niro EV will do 250 real world miles for <£35k.

Only if you're pootling will it. Not at 70mph. Plus they're slow.

[gmaz]

Fastdruid said:

SWoll said:

Fastdruid said:

It is if you want some range!

A Hyundai Kona or Kia Niro EV will do 250 real world miles for <£35k.

Only if you're pootling will it. Not at 70mph. Plus they're slow.

Define "slow". 0-60 is about 6.7sec. I did Leeds to Bristol in my Kona averaging over 70 and still had about 20% left. This was in Summer admittedly, winter may be more of an issue.

[NDA]

I was never particularly interested in EV Vs Petrol costs - as I had never owned an EV. The cost difference is an amusement rather than the difference between me eating cat food or caviar.

But I just did a cost comparison in a year of ownership Vs my (ridiculous to compare) Range Rover. However it is the only other car that I have (besides my summer car) to compare my saving.

In the past year I would have spent £7,596 on petrol. I spent £699 on volts. I would have spent £1k on servicing and £500 on road tax. Without calculating a daily congestion charge in London, this is an annual saving of roughly £8,000.

As has been said so many times, it all depends on use case. In my case it really works - with a company tax saving, it is not far off paying for itself after not many years.

[Heres Johnny]

DonkeyApple said:

Depends on who is paying though.

For example:

The HMRC mileage rate for 2021/2022 year
The 2021 rates are:

45p per mile for cars and vans on the first 10,000 miles travelled (25 pence over 10,000 miles)
4p per mile for fully electric cars

For 300 miles:

£135 v £12

I can't see how an EV could ever be cheaper under those particular conditions and that's if you can find a lease that would allow that sort of mileage.

Your stop really wouldn't be ten mins and you'd do it on the first part of the journey so that it wasn't done on your time.

The firms you were visiting will all eventually have chargers for such customers which instantly solves the issue but at the moment you'd be mad to be fannying about with an EV for such an extreme driving routine.

Edited by DonkeyApple on Friday 18th March 15:26

That’s factually incorrect - and I normally agree with much of what you say

When you use your own car for business you get 45p a mile (stepping down at higher mileage), regardless of petrol or electric

When it’s a company car you get 5p electric and between about 12 and 18p, might be more now, per mile for petrol or diesel

[DonkeyApple]

Heres Johnny said:

That’s factually incorrect - and I normally agree with much of what you say

When you use your own car for business you get 45p a mile (stepping down at higher mileage), regardless of petrol or electric

When it’s a company car you get 5p electric and between about 12 and 18p, might be more now, per mile for petrol or diesel

Cheers.

Having never claimed anything or had a company car I just lifted that off a website.

Still wouldn't spend money on a car that consigned me to visiting a motorway services every day of my working life. Horrendous venues for emergency use only.

[SWoll]

Fastdruid said:

SWoll said:

Fastdruid said:

It is if you want some range!

A Hyundai Kona or Kia Niro EV will do 250 real world miles for <£35k.

Only if you're pootling will it. Not at 70mph. Plus they're slow.

That was at motorway speeds and single digit temperatures.

And 0-60 < 7 seconds isn't slow, but that's just you moving the goalposts again anyway..

DonkeyApple said:

Heres Johnny said:

That’s factually incorrect - and I normally agree with much of what you say

When you use your own car for business you get 45p a mile (stepping down at higher mileage), regardless of petrol or electric

When it’s a company car you get 5p electric and between about 12 and 18p, might be more now, per mile for petrol or diesel

Cheers.

Having never claimed anything or had a company car I just lifted that off a website.

Still wouldn't spend money on a car that consigned me to visiting a motorway services every day of my working life. Horrendous venues for emergency use only.

As above, it it saved you enough money I'm sure plenty would consider it though?

Edited by SWoll on Friday 18th March 17:11

[DonkeyApple]

SWoll said:

As above, it it saved you enough money I'm sure plenty would consider it though?

Edited by SWoll on Friday 18th March 17:11

Hence the thread. Money > inconvenience. Which is going to be quite subjective but also why I asked above who was paying the fuel bill.

[DMZ]

I’m sure you could find a routine to make it work too if needs be. Mentally set aside 30 mins or whatever and find a good solid charger array that’s usually available. Spend that 30 mins catching up on stuff.