An interesting time to be a car fan?
Discussion
Some time back the idea came up of "synthesising" the driving experience. We already have enhanced/fake sound, variable dampers, multi-modes for steering weight, throttle response, etc..
What would it take to programme an EV to drive like, say, a classic Mustang? The software probably exists already in driving simulators and games consoles.
Could be fun...do the school drop-off in your bland SUV then tap the screen and - shazzam - you're Steve McQueen.
What would it take to programme an EV to drive like, say, a classic Mustang? The software probably exists already in driving simulators and games consoles.
Could be fun...do the school drop-off in your bland SUV then tap the screen and - shazzam - you're Steve McQueen.
Mikehig said:
Some time back the idea came up of "synthesising" the driving experience. We already have enhanced/fake sound, variable dampers, multi-modes for steering weight, throttle response, etc..
What would it take to programme an EV to drive like, say, a classic Mustang? The software probably exists already in driving simulators and games consoles.
Could be fun...do the school drop-off in your bland SUV then tap the screen and - shazzam - you're Steve McQueen.
Tbh you're talking about making a car artificially sWhat would it take to programme an EV to drive like, say, a classic Mustang? The software probably exists already in driving simulators and games consoles.
Could be fun...do the school drop-off in your bland SUV then tap the screen and - shazzam - you're Steve McQueen.
ttier to improve feel.We've been doing that for years. Skinnier tyres for example on the GT86, extra sound coming from the speakers, some cars avoiding turbos or sticking to manual transmissions. The issue is no one cares except for our little corner of the internet.
That's why we get 2t suvs.
Mikehig said:
Some time back the idea came up of "synthesising" the driving experience. We already have enhanced/fake sound, variable dampers, multi-modes for steering weight, throttle response, etc..
What would it take to programme an EV to drive like, say, a classic Mustang? The software probably exists already in driving simulators and games consoles.
Could be fun...do the school drop-off in your bland SUV then tap the screen and - shazzam - you're Steve McQueen.
It's not just a case of artificial noise and simulated gear changes/powerband though. Vibration, chassis geometry, weight balance etc. are all factors that make up the experience of ICE cars and aren't something you can just create in software. What would it take to programme an EV to drive like, say, a classic Mustang? The software probably exists already in driving simulators and games consoles.
Could be fun...do the school drop-off in your bland SUV then tap the screen and - shazzam - you're Steve McQueen.
Terminator X said:
"Silent" how can you extract any joy from that.
TX.
There's probably less than 5% of cars on the road that sound interesting, and of those, less then 5% of their time moving is spent making a fun sound, e.g. accelerating through the gears.TX.
If you like the sound of a Peugeot diesel van idling, i.e. a typical common vehicle, then fine, go and listen to that.
gmaz said:
Terminator X said:
"Silent" how can you extract any joy from that.
TX.
There's probably less than 5% of cars on the road that sound interesting, and of those, less then 5% of their time moving is spent making a fun sound, e.g. accelerating through the gears.TX.
If you like the sound of a Peugeot diesel van idling, i.e. a typical common vehicle, then fine, go and listen to that.
ICE makes a very small % of cars great fun.
EV makes most cars more fun than ICE. It makes many cars a lot of fun too.
An affordable EV such as the e-Up, far more fun than the petrol and costs at least as little to own and run for a daily - along with all the other EV advantages.
A lot of EV's are crossovers and SUV's, a lot of people like such cars. The EVs are by far the best handling and fun though.
In a way, yes. I'm very interested about fuel cell cars and their performance. It is nice to watch endurance racing when there is one h2 racing car. It is like going back to early 1900's. Competing because development. Interesting.
And second thing is design. There are two interesting looking car coming, Hopium Machima and Hyundai Ioniq 6. Both looks very nice with futuristic streamliner lines.
BEV's are boring tho. Too heavy, not suitable for performance driving or gran tours (you can do that but it takes effort) and generally meh. So that's the other side of this time.
And second thing is design. There are two interesting looking car coming, Hopium Machima and Hyundai Ioniq 6. Both looks very nice with futuristic streamliner lines.
BEV's are boring tho. Too heavy, not suitable for performance driving or gran tours (you can do that but it takes effort) and generally meh. So that's the other side of this time.
Despite my stance on EVs, only a handful of them can raise my pulse. I'm actually quite conflicted in that I love old school petrol cars yet I've spent the best part of my career designing and developing technology to replace the old school.
I'm very aware that I come across as very dismissive of alternatives to EVs, notably hydrogen and synthetic fuels. There was time when these technologies did interest me, I suppose before it became feasible to mass produce fully electric cars. There was also a phase around 20 years ago when alternative engine technology was being promoted, either for direct propulsion, or for hybrid cars. Things like microturbines, and some weird and wonderful rotary and recip concepts.
With all of these things though, the excitement eventually gives way to the slow but unavoidable realisation that none of them have any hope of meeting the passenger car needs of a global population of billions and billions of people. In some respect, EVs arguably also fit that description. The difference being that they stand a far greater chance than anything else, and due to their massively higher efficiency, are undisputedly, the least worse choice.
My personal mission statement on this topic is probably best described as simply 'trying to save the car'. It just so happens that, to me, there is but one road left to achieve that. To answer the thread title then, yes, it is interesting. It will be interesting to see just how successful we are at overcoming the massive hurdles that exist to get the point where EVs are the saviour of the car, and that we can actually sustainably produce and operate hundreds of millions and maybe even a billion of them worldwide.
It will also be interesting to follow the progress of the alternatives, particularly fuel cell cars, to see what kind of market share they can actually attract, and if anything fundamentally changes that gives them a better look-in. Strangely, despite having probably the lowest possibility of getting any sort of look in (for the myriad of reasons I've vocally posted on that topic) I'm intrigued by what Toyota are doing with hydrogen ICE, my heart over head indulgence if you like.
Sure, it's an interesting time to be car fan, but I think it's also undeniably a somewhat concerning time too.
I'm very aware that I come across as very dismissive of alternatives to EVs, notably hydrogen and synthetic fuels. There was time when these technologies did interest me, I suppose before it became feasible to mass produce fully electric cars. There was also a phase around 20 years ago when alternative engine technology was being promoted, either for direct propulsion, or for hybrid cars. Things like microturbines, and some weird and wonderful rotary and recip concepts.
With all of these things though, the excitement eventually gives way to the slow but unavoidable realisation that none of them have any hope of meeting the passenger car needs of a global population of billions and billions of people. In some respect, EVs arguably also fit that description. The difference being that they stand a far greater chance than anything else, and due to their massively higher efficiency, are undisputedly, the least worse choice.
My personal mission statement on this topic is probably best described as simply 'trying to save the car'. It just so happens that, to me, there is but one road left to achieve that. To answer the thread title then, yes, it is interesting. It will be interesting to see just how successful we are at overcoming the massive hurdles that exist to get the point where EVs are the saviour of the car, and that we can actually sustainably produce and operate hundreds of millions and maybe even a billion of them worldwide.
It will also be interesting to follow the progress of the alternatives, particularly fuel cell cars, to see what kind of market share they can actually attract, and if anything fundamentally changes that gives them a better look-in. Strangely, despite having probably the lowest possibility of getting any sort of look in (for the myriad of reasons I've vocally posted on that topic) I'm intrigued by what Toyota are doing with hydrogen ICE, my heart over head indulgence if you like.
Sure, it's an interesting time to be car fan, but I think it's also undeniably a somewhat concerning time too.
GT9 said:
Despite my stance on EVs, only a handful of them can raise my pulse. I'm actually quite conflicted in that I love old school petrol cars yet I've spent the best part of my career designing and developing technology to replace the old school.
I'm very aware that I come across as very dismissive of alternatives to EVs, notably hydrogen and synthetic fuels. There was time when these technologies did interest me, I suppose before it became feasible to mass produce fully electric cars. There was also a phase around 20 years ago when alternative engine technology was being promoted, either for direct propulsion, or for hybrid cars. Things like microturbines, and some weird and wonderful rotary and recip concepts.
With all of these things though, the excitement eventually gives way to the slow but unavoidable realisation that none of them have any hope of meeting the passenger car needs of a global population of billions and billions of people. In some respect, EVs arguably also fit that description. The difference being that they stand a far greater chance than anything else, and due to their massively higher efficiency, are undisputedly, the least worse choice.
My personal mission statement on this topic is probably best described as simply 'trying to save the car'. It just so happens that, to me, there is but one road left to achieve that. To answer the thread title then, yes, it is interesting. It will be interesting to see just how successful we are at overcoming the massive hurdles that exist to get the point where EVs are the saviour of the car, and that we can actually sustainably produce and operate hundreds of millions and maybe even a billion of them worldwide.
It will also be interesting to follow the progress of the alternatives, particularly fuel cell cars, to see what kind of market share they can actually attract, and if anything fundamentally changes that gives them a better look-in. Strangely, despite having probably the lowest possibility of getting any sort of look in (for the myriad of reasons I've vocally posted on that topic) I'm intrigued by what Toyota are doing with hydrogen ICE, my heart over head indulgence if you like.
Sure, it's an interesting time to be car fan, but I think it's also undeniably a somewhat concerning time too.
I must admit I do feel that it's a shame some in development ideas and technologies surrounding ICE never really got their day - and now will not.I'm very aware that I come across as very dismissive of alternatives to EVs, notably hydrogen and synthetic fuels. There was time when these technologies did interest me, I suppose before it became feasible to mass produce fully electric cars. There was also a phase around 20 years ago when alternative engine technology was being promoted, either for direct propulsion, or for hybrid cars. Things like microturbines, and some weird and wonderful rotary and recip concepts.
With all of these things though, the excitement eventually gives way to the slow but unavoidable realisation that none of them have any hope of meeting the passenger car needs of a global population of billions and billions of people. In some respect, EVs arguably also fit that description. The difference being that they stand a far greater chance than anything else, and due to their massively higher efficiency, are undisputedly, the least worse choice.
My personal mission statement on this topic is probably best described as simply 'trying to save the car'. It just so happens that, to me, there is but one road left to achieve that. To answer the thread title then, yes, it is interesting. It will be interesting to see just how successful we are at overcoming the massive hurdles that exist to get the point where EVs are the saviour of the car, and that we can actually sustainably produce and operate hundreds of millions and maybe even a billion of them worldwide.
It will also be interesting to follow the progress of the alternatives, particularly fuel cell cars, to see what kind of market share they can actually attract, and if anything fundamentally changes that gives them a better look-in. Strangely, despite having probably the lowest possibility of getting any sort of look in (for the myriad of reasons I've vocally posted on that topic) I'm intrigued by what Toyota are doing with hydrogen ICE, my heart over head indulgence if you like.
Sure, it's an interesting time to be car fan, but I think it's also undeniably a somewhat concerning time too.
Renault were making some great progress with 'modern' two stroke engines on the testbed a few years back, the idea being that an engine could become simpler and lighter whilst maintaining a competitive power output - it was all only possible because of the latest fabrication technologies allowed the precision required to make two stroke clean and efficient. I'm sure they've since had to drop it though, the ICE bans were moved forwards five years which must have shut down most such projects aimed at improving them for the future. There is no future in that direction now so...
I'm also sure at least some such projects were intended to be wheeled out in front of governments to justify hanging on to ICE a little longer, so long as it's ultra efficient etc.. But the governments mostly seem committed to a BEV future now and I think the politics and industry is now so far down that road, with billions of spending committed to it, that there is no practical way to change course.
And afterall, so far nothing beats the overall efficiency of BEV and if the only problem is getting enough cells produced, the answer becomes better and easier to produce cells.. and that's something that would benefit us all and the world at large beyond just cars, so it's not a bad thing to go chasing.
LasseV said:
There are two interesting looking car coming, Hopium Machina and Hyundai Ioniq 6. Both looks very nice with futuristic streamliner lines.
The Machina is a lovely looking thing, but geez why would you go with Hopium for a hydrogen fuel cell car brand.Hopium in English is a combination of hope and opium, to describe the irrational addiction to hope when there is none...
ETA: There is also the open goal that was missed to use Protium instead.
Edited by GT9 on Sunday 19th June 21:20
TheDeuce said:
OutInTheShed said:
TheDeuce said:
Terminator X said:
"Silent" how can you extract any joy from that.
TX.
Ask a deaf person if they ever find joy in the world?TX.
In terms of cars, we're used to sound validating the physical experience. There are other ways of getting that same validation though.
Cars that have immense and instant power are a different yet perfectly valid experience, and can be very fun. Once the weight issue is solved, they could be a lot more fun too.
Those who find thrills with things like mountain bikes, sailboards, kite surfing, racing dinghies, racing bikes, hang gliders and so on ....
Those who need loud exhausts and silly noises
One of my big regrets in motorcycling is I wish I'd adopted earplugs a lot sooner!
I love the feeling of energy that comes from a roaring engine/exhaust, and the mechanical feel of certain cars. But I think once you fully embrace newer tech you can find the same level but different type of appreciation for the way these newer machines go about the job of giving the driver the best overall weapon to pilot.
As I always say, if you're alive and hold a driving license today, you'll be dead before it becomes particularly difficult to drive the very best of ICE (or the best they ever get before game over) if you get the itch. Those that come after won't care either way, they'll be born with EV and learn about the previous in history lessons. And hopefully see them in the flesh at various events. The same as we see steam engines and have all sorts of emotions about them, but we wouldn't vote for their mainstream return - no matter how visceral they are compared to what killed them off.
TX.
Mikehig said:
Some time back the idea came up of "synthesising" the driving experience. We already have enhanced/fake sound, variable dampers, multi-modes for steering weight, throttle response, etc..
What would it take to programme an EV to drive like, say, a classic Mustang? The software probably exists already in driving simulators and games consoles.
Could be fun...do the school drop-off in your bland SUV then tap the screen and - shazzam - you're Steve McQueen.
It's here already, ecutek are doing it for the Nissan leaf so you can adjust settings to suit how you want it to respond plus modification to the battery (you'll have to Google this as I can't remember) but it won't be long for ev manufacturers to start offering this, probably lead by insurance companies demanding it due more elderly people mashing the throttle expecting the previous slow acceleration and getting a fat dose of torque instead. What would it take to programme an EV to drive like, say, a classic Mustang? The software probably exists already in driving simulators and games consoles.
Could be fun...do the school drop-off in your bland SUV then tap the screen and - shazzam - you're Steve McQueen.
You can also get the speakers for ev cars that'll play whatever sound you like. I'm not sure if tesla are offering this as an option but I've seen a few of then for sale with it.
lemmingjames said:
Mikehig said:
Some time back the idea came up of "synthesising" the driving experience. We already have enhanced/fake sound, variable dampers, multi-modes for steering weight, throttle response, etc..
What would it take to programme an EV to drive like, say, a classic Mustang? The software probably exists already in driving simulators and games consoles.
Could be fun...do the school drop-off in your bland SUV then tap the screen and - shazzam - you're Steve McQueen.
It's here already, ecutek are doing it for the Nissan leaf so you can adjust settings to suit how you want it to respond plus modification to the battery (you'll have to Google this as I can't remember) but it won't be long for ev manufacturers to start offering this, probably lead by insurance companies demanding it due more elderly people mashing the throttle expecting the previous slow acceleration and getting a fat dose of torque instead. What would it take to programme an EV to drive like, say, a classic Mustang? The software probably exists already in driving simulators and games consoles.
Could be fun...do the school drop-off in your bland SUV then tap the screen and - shazzam - you're Steve McQueen.
You can also get the speakers for ev cars that'll play whatever sound you like. I'm not sure if tesla are offering this as an option but I've seen a few of then for sale with it.
Wrt catering for oldies, it reminds me of the Top Gear "Old People's Car" where they put a squeaky toy under the throttle pedal to try and stop it being mistaken for the brake!
Terminator X said:
TheDeuce said:
OutInTheShed said:
TheDeuce said:
Terminator X said:
"Silent" how can you extract any joy from that.
TX.
Ask a deaf person if they ever find joy in the world?TX.
In terms of cars, we're used to sound validating the physical experience. There are other ways of getting that same validation though.
Cars that have immense and instant power are a different yet perfectly valid experience, and can be very fun. Once the weight issue is solved, they could be a lot more fun too.
Those who find thrills with things like mountain bikes, sailboards, kite surfing, racing dinghies, racing bikes, hang gliders and so on ....
Those who need loud exhausts and silly noises
One of my big regrets in motorcycling is I wish I'd adopted earplugs a lot sooner!
I love the feeling of energy that comes from a roaring engine/exhaust, and the mechanical feel of certain cars. But I think once you fully embrace newer tech you can find the same level but different type of appreciation for the way these newer machines go about the job of giving the driver the best overall weapon to pilot.
As I always say, if you're alive and hold a driving license today, you'll be dead before it becomes particularly difficult to drive the very best of ICE (or the best they ever get before game over) if you get the itch. Those that come after won't care either way, they'll be born with EV and learn about the previous in history lessons. And hopefully see them in the flesh at various events. The same as we see steam engines and have all sorts of emotions about them, but we wouldn't vote for their mainstream return - no matter how visceral they are compared to what killed them off.
TX.
As for what is killing off fossil-fuelled ICEs, I'd argue that the ICEs themselves are doing that job all on their own, not EVs. If EVs didn't exist, we would still be facing the same sustainability and cost spiral issues we have today, which would then slowly but surely bring about the demise of the car itself. Despite your dislike for them, EVs are actually the only thing that can save the car, long-term, as something everyone can aspire to own.
Terminator X said:
The steam engine analogy often used in here is just rubbish; steam went out of favour because you had to carry the coal around with you and shovel it into the fire vs something far simpler and easier, EV vs ICE is nothing like that. EV power is just like ICE or diesel, all found in a car and just used to move it forwards. I should imagine something else will come along soon to power a car and we will just add it to the list.
TX.
The problems for steam are initial start and stop at the end.TX.
Takes time to get them up to steam, then you have to babysit them at the end till they are safe.
lemmingjames said:
Mikehig said:
Some time back the idea came up of "synthesising" the driving experience. We already have enhanced/fake sound, variable dampers, multi-modes for steering weight, throttle response, etc..
What would it take to programme an EV to drive like, say, a classic Mustang? The software probably exists already in driving simulators and games consoles.
Could be fun...do the school drop-off in your bland SUV then tap the screen and - shazzam - you're Steve McQueen.
It's here already, ecutek are doing it for the Nissan leaf so you can adjust settings to suit how you want it to respond plus modification to the battery (you'll have to Google this as I can't remember) but it won't be long for ev manufacturers to start offering this, probably lead by insurance companies demanding it due more elderly people mashing the throttle expecting the previous slow acceleration and getting a fat dose of torque instead. What would it take to programme an EV to drive like, say, a classic Mustang? The software probably exists already in driving simulators and games consoles.
Could be fun...do the school drop-off in your bland SUV then tap the screen and - shazzam - you're Steve McQueen.
You can also get the speakers for ev cars that'll play whatever sound you like. I'm not sure if tesla are offering this as an option but I've seen a few of then for sale with it.
Maybe it was covered already but aren’t these useless drive modes most cars have these days trying to “synthesise” the experience including the sound? I had a car that played the MP3 stuff a bit louder in sport mode as an example and I’m sure it changed the throttle response too and all that stuff. It was all mildly idiotic tbh.
After driving an EV, the concept of an ICE just seems ridiculous:
Just to start the thing you need
1. A 12v battery
2. An electric motor
3. The engine itself
4. An electric motor wired backwards (alternator) to put the electricity back in the battery.
It has so many parasitic loads that take the energy from the engine before it gets anywhere near the wheels
1. Alternator
2. Oil pump
3. Fuel pump
4. Water pump
5. Radiator fan
6. Vacuum servo
7. Hydraulic power steering pump
An ICE is effectively an air pump with added explosions, but the air movement is restricted by
1. Air filter
2. EGR system
3. DPF
4. Catalytic converter
5. Resonator / back box
To create the explosions, you need to seal the cylinder using a valve spring. Have you ever tried to compress a valve spring? Imagine the energy required to compress one thousands of times a minute.
Likewise the fuel/air mixture has to be compressed 10:1 or more for diesel. That uses a vast amount of energy.
Then there's all the metal-on-metal friction of 100's of moving parts - piston rings, big end bearings, gears, camshafts on valve stems, all requiring oil, and all not quite fitting together until it is up to temperature.
Even stuff you've never heard of like "crankshaft windage" affects the energy loss.
Just to start the thing you need
1. A 12v battery
2. An electric motor
3. The engine itself
4. An electric motor wired backwards (alternator) to put the electricity back in the battery.
It has so many parasitic loads that take the energy from the engine before it gets anywhere near the wheels
1. Alternator
2. Oil pump
3. Fuel pump
4. Water pump
5. Radiator fan
6. Vacuum servo
7. Hydraulic power steering pump
An ICE is effectively an air pump with added explosions, but the air movement is restricted by
1. Air filter
2. EGR system
3. DPF
4. Catalytic converter
5. Resonator / back box
To create the explosions, you need to seal the cylinder using a valve spring. Have you ever tried to compress a valve spring? Imagine the energy required to compress one thousands of times a minute.
Likewise the fuel/air mixture has to be compressed 10:1 or more for diesel. That uses a vast amount of energy.
Then there's all the metal-on-metal friction of 100's of moving parts - piston rings, big end bearings, gears, camshafts on valve stems, all requiring oil, and all not quite fitting together until it is up to temperature.
Even stuff you've never heard of like "crankshaft windage" affects the energy loss.
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