EV Charging: On a council Estate.
Discussion
Evanivitch said:
Unless you're willing to invest a few £100Bn in improving public transport outside of urban centres, private transport will remain essential for many.
Only to the extent that it's essential they carry on making the same journeys.There are people in all areas without cars.
Being able to have a car may affect where you choose to live and work. Nothing new there really.
Evanivitch said:
Unless you're willing to invest a few £100Bn in improving public transport outside of urban centres, private transport will remain essential for many.
Only to the extent that it's essential they carry on making the same journeys.There are people in all areas without cars.
Being able to have a car may affect where you choose to live and work. Nothing new there really.
OutInTheShed said:
Evanivitch said:
Unless you're willing to invest a few £100Bn in improving public transport outside of urban centres, private transport will remain essential for many.
Only to the extent that it's essential they carry on making the same journeys.There are people in all areas without cars.
Being able to have a car may affect where you choose to live and work. Nothing new there really.
So yeah, not a big deal...
Evanivitch said:
OutInTheShed said:
Evanivitch said:
Unless you're willing to invest a few £100Bn in improving public transport outside of urban centres, private transport will remain essential for many.
Only to the extent that it's essential they carry on making the same journeys.There are people in all areas without cars.
Being able to have a car may affect where you choose to live and work. Nothing new there really.
So yeah, not a big deal...
I suspect that this reality will become quite stark over the next decade. A lot of people are living below the so called poverty line, and right now many of them can afford a £500, 20 year old POS as a runaround. In the not too distant future that sort of car really might not be available. There's a good argument to say that such cars shouldn't be available.
Evanivitch said:
Where you live (so move to more expensive areas), where you work (less choice of jobs, shift patterns, ability to move to better opportunities), where your children go for education, your access to healthcare facilities (both of which also impact your ability to work), impacts on your ability to purchase goods (so potentially using smaller, more expensive convenience stores).
So yeah, not a big deal...
But other stuff can evolve to where it is needed.So yeah, not a big deal...
At the moment we have lots of people moving to rural Devon and no increase in resources when they get there.
Few jobs when their brats grow up.
It's not exactly like everything works nicely now TBH.
OutInTheShed said:
But other stuff can evolve to where it is needed.
At the moment we have lots of people moving to rural Devon and no increase in resources when they get there.
Few jobs when their brats grow up.
It's not exactly like everything works nicely now TBH.
Completely agree. Feel free to join in the discussion in another thread on second homes destroying rural community assets, only for retirees to then arrive expecting first-class public transport and medical resources.At the moment we have lots of people moving to rural Devon and no increase in resources when they get there.
Few jobs when their brats grow up.
It's not exactly like everything works nicely now TBH.
Public transport needs to be better, for sure. But where's the investment?
TheDeuce said:
A very big deal for some people. But in the end, you can only have what you can afford. If cars become more expensive then maybe some won't be able to afford them. That could mean they have to move elsewhere to make life workable and maybe downsize, or give up a hobby and save money elsewhere in life and stretch to running a car still.
I suspect that this reality will become quite stark over the next decade. A lot of people are living below the so called poverty line, and right now many of them can afford a £500, 20 year old POS as a runaround. In the not too distant future that sort of car really might not be available. There's a good argument to say that such cars shouldn't be available.
These things also shift with generations.I suspect that this reality will become quite stark over the next decade. A lot of people are living below the so called poverty line, and right now many of them can afford a £500, 20 year old POS as a runaround. In the not too distant future that sort of car really might not be available. There's a good argument to say that such cars shouldn't be available.
I know young affluent people in their 20s or 30s who don't own cars. They live in places like Brighton and might rent a car now and then.
My peers almost all owned cars, I can think of two who didn't and they each had more than one motorbike.
OutInTheShed said:
These things also shift with generations.
I know young affluent people in their 20s or 30s who don't own cars. They live in places like Brighton and might rent a car now and then.
My peers almost all owned cars, I can think of two who didn't and they each had more than one motorbike.
I'm of the boomer generation. When I was 3 years old, my parents became the first to own a car within a big family (seven siblings). Most working families only aspired to car ownership back then, just a couple of generations ago.I know young affluent people in their 20s or 30s who don't own cars. They live in places like Brighton and might rent a car now and then.
My peers almost all owned cars, I can think of two who didn't and they each had more than one motorbike.
We could be returning to those times...
bigothunter said:
I'm of the boomer generation. When I was 3 years old, my parents became the first to own a car within a big family (seven siblings). Most working families only aspired to car ownership back then, just a couple of generations ago.
We could be returning to those times...
https://www.acea.auto/figure/motorisation-rates-in-the-eu-by-country-and-vehicle-type/We could be returning to those times...
UK is about 530 cars per 1000 inhabitants.
Some countries look less car dependant, but it's hard to guess the number of cars which are lightly used or non-essential.
Allegedly the total number of cars in the UK dropped last year, but the decrease is pretty much less 'stock' at dealers?
And there's more vans.
C.A.R. said:
About to pass 6,000 miles in my EV I've had since March.
I've charged it at home exactly zero times.
People really need to stop getting hung up about at-home charging. In the current cost climate it doesn't even make economical sense, even if you have off-street parking!
Assuming you're very familiar with your workplace charging or the local Tesco Podpoint I've charged it at home exactly zero times.
People really need to stop getting hung up about at-home charging. In the current cost climate it doesn't even make economical sense, even if you have off-street parking!
OutInTheShed said:
And there are cars in between.
But unless things change a lot, there will be a shortage of used EVs.
Once your Tesla's battery has degraded to 50% of new, it doesn't have a long future. It won't be a great buy for someone doing 40k km a year, they won't get two years out of it.
But unless things change a lot, there will be a shortage of used EVs.
Once your Tesla's battery has degraded to 50% of new, it doesn't have a long future. It won't be a great buy for someone doing 40k km a year, they won't get two years out of it.
- Multiple shops are refurbishing batteries now. It's not rocket science and will be a growing business. With EV's requiring a lot less maintenance, I can see a future there for a lot of independent shops.
- I was talking about an SR Tesla Model 3. If you do 40K km/year, I hope you get reimbursed enough to buy something better than a 15 year old base level Tesla? In fact, I know no-one who does more than 20K km/year who now owns a car more than 5 years old.
- Batteries go bad, but degradation to the extent you're talking about doesn't exist in modern EV's like Tesla's. We've yet to see them go 15 years, but 10 year old Tesla's, which by today standards have pretty outdated packs, are lasting surprisingly well.
bigothunter said:
I'm of the boomer generation. When I was 3 years old, my parents became the first to own a car within a big family (seven siblings). Most working families only aspired to car ownership back then, just a couple of generations ago.
We could be returning to those times...
Nope, the generation we're talking about doesn't aspire to car ownership at all.We could be returning to those times...
It's a costly and cumbersome thing, just pull out an app and walk to a car that's available.
A lot more convenient than take the hit on a depreciating asset that's standing still about 99% of the time.
ZesPak said:
Nope, the generation we're talking about doesn't aspire to car ownership at all.
It's a costly and cumbersome thing, just pull out an app and walk to a car that's available.
A lot more convenient than take the hit on a depreciating asset that's standing still about 99% of the time.
I sense this too, especially in cities, where the younger generation really don't get the point of having a car. Most of what they need in life can come to them directly these days anyway, and of course they have great public transport and an uber is always mere minutes away.It's a costly and cumbersome thing, just pull out an app and walk to a car that's available.
A lot more convenient than take the hit on a depreciating asset that's standing still about 99% of the time.
That along with so much else discussed in this thread about changing attitudes, costs and desires.. worrying about how something will be achieved in 15-20 years based on what we experience today isn't very sensible. All that should matter is that we know that even with todays tech, enough chargers could be made available for those that can't charge at home. But for endless reasons I suspect that by the time they're required, there will be less cars, certainly less old sheds clogging up driveways, faster charging cars, refurbished spaces in high density housing areas used to host charger bays, people generally doing less miles per year and so on.
ZesPak said:
Nope, the generation we're talking about doesn't aspire to car ownership at all.
It's a costly and cumbersome thing, just pull out an app and walk to a car that's available.
A lot more convenient than take the hit on a depreciating asset that's standing still about 99% of the time.
My point was most working families did not own cars just a couple of generations ago. Those times seem to be returning.It's a costly and cumbersome thing, just pull out an app and walk to a car that's available.
A lot more convenient than take the hit on a depreciating asset that's standing still about 99% of the time.
I believe you reluctantly agree with me...
bigothunter said:
TheDeuce said:
For some people, a personal car may not be the affordable option in ten, twenty years time. I think the politicians are not minded against that either..
Supporting many policy objectives and solving many problems. Car ownership will become a privilege (for the wealthy) not a right (for all)...bigothunter said:
My point was most working families did not own cars just a couple of generations ago. Those times seem to be returning.
I believe you reluctantly agree with me...
As above, that has nothing to do with EV's and everything to do with the increasing costs of car ownership for any car massively outstripping the increase in earnings.I believe you reluctantly agree with me...
Edited by SWoll on Wednesday 29th June 14:29
SWoll said:
Why would owning a car ever be considered a right, it's always been a privilege for those that can afford to do so?. Plenty of people who can't afford to run an ICE car today due to purchase, insurance, fuel and VED costs.
This is something that really grinds my gears. I've seen many struggling people who "can't afford a decent bicycle to go to work", yet own a car.To an entire generation (boomers) the concept of not owning a car seems preposterous, while many people seem to be doing just fine without one.
A car is the second largest financial burden on most families, yet in so many cases can be avoided.
The one thing a lot of these people seem to forget when calculating what the car actually cost them is depreciation, which is by far the largest cost.
ZesPak said:
This is something that really grinds my gears. I've seen many struggling people who "can't afford a decent bicycle to go to work", yet own a car.
To an entire generation (boomers) the concept of not owning a car seems preposterous, while many people seem to be doing just fine without one.
A car is the second largest financial burden on most families, yet in so many cases can be avoided.
The one thing a lot of these people seem to forget when calculating what the car actually cost them is depreciation, which is by far the largest cost.
All depends how you got the car. It's not unusual that cars are handed down from parents or purchased as non-running examples and fixed by people with sufficient ability to avoid the expensive labour costs.To an entire generation (boomers) the concept of not owning a car seems preposterous, while many people seem to be doing just fine without one.
A car is the second largest financial burden on most families, yet in so many cases can be avoided.
The one thing a lot of these people seem to forget when calculating what the car actually cost them is depreciation, which is by far the largest cost.
A bike can certainly be cheap. But getting back and forth to work in a state that is suitable for the work environment isn't always easy in British weather, British roads and British terrain. And then the rate that bicycles are stolen is just incredible.
SWoll said:
As above, that has nothing to do with EV's and everything to do with the increasing costs of car ownership for any car massively outstripping the increase in earnings.
I'm not sure that all car ownership is increasingly costly in real terms?Edited by SWoll on Wednesday 29th June 14:29
I think perhaps you could make a case to show that for a median earner it's cheaper (in salary hours) to have a new car on a 3 year deal than it's ever been?
Yet I think the cost of running a reasonably reliable banger has increase a lot?
I think there's a trend for the lifetime costs of a car to fall less heavily on the first owner, and more heavily on its owner from 6 to 12 years?
OutInTheShed said:
SWoll said:
As above, that has nothing to do with EV's and everything to do with the increasing costs of car ownership for any car massively outstripping the increase in earnings.
I'm not sure that all car ownership is increasingly costly in real terms?Edited by SWoll on Wednesday 29th June 14:29
I think perhaps you could make a case to show that for a median earner it's cheaper (in salary hours) to have a new car on a 3 year deal than it's ever been?
Yet I think the cost of running a reasonably reliable banger has increase a lot?
I think there's a trend for the lifetime costs of a car to fall less heavily on the first owner, and more heavily on its owner from 6 to 12 years?
Or... Maybe not. The thing is that lots of things change in value, often quite considerably, but those that really need/want them tend to find a way.
Look at house prices today vs 20 or 30 years in terms of multiples of salary. As the decades drift by we're forever told houses are becoming unaffordable - yet there's a housing shortage.
Hence it stands to reason that those that simply must have a car, will continue to find a way. I suspect however that the majority that feel they must, could actually solve the problem in other ways.
OutInTheShed said:
Yet I think the cost of running a reasonably reliable banger has increase a lot?
I think there's a trend for the lifetime costs of a car to fall less heavily on the first owner, and more heavily on its owner from 6 to 12 years?
Early year costs are hugely effected by initial purchase price. I will only buy a 'new' vehicle if heavily discounted, often through being pre-registered. Crippling depreciation can be avoided.I think there's a trend for the lifetime costs of a car to fall less heavily on the first owner, and more heavily on its owner from 6 to 12 years?
Principle of 5 to 10 years old being the cheapest period holds true in my experience. Wear out phase and failures tend to elevate costs after 10 years. Actual economic lifetime is highly dependent on vehicle type and usage profile. That 10 years can extend to 15 or more.
Also leasing new cars can be very economic, unless your ex takes and refuses to return it even though you are still paying
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