EV residual value - aren't they supposed to be high?
Discussion
I struggle to see the attraction of a used EV and I'm puzzled there is much of a market for the higher end stuff used. (not in anyway trying to be inflammatory, and I'm happy to hear others opinions and accept if I am wrong).
As I understand it the attraction of EVs (I am thinking particularly about all the people I know with taycans/Tesla) is all about the tax savings buying through your company that ultimately make for a pretty low cost of ownership. You get a very nice car for much less cost than an ICE alternative. But these advantages aren't there if buying used.
So I understand the bottom end of the used EV market, and the advantage of a cheap and cheerful run about EV. And I understand the top end new EV market. But I can't quite figure the top end used EV market.
And that is before you start to factor in rapidly advancing tech and obsolescence of all things software/tech after 5+ years. Again I can see how that doesn't matter so much at the cheap runabout end of the market, but if buying higher end, surely with the tax savings and the pull of more advanced tech you just buy new?
As I understand it the attraction of EVs (I am thinking particularly about all the people I know with taycans/Tesla) is all about the tax savings buying through your company that ultimately make for a pretty low cost of ownership. You get a very nice car for much less cost than an ICE alternative. But these advantages aren't there if buying used.
So I understand the bottom end of the used EV market, and the advantage of a cheap and cheerful run about EV. And I understand the top end new EV market. But I can't quite figure the top end used EV market.
And that is before you start to factor in rapidly advancing tech and obsolescence of all things software/tech after 5+ years. Again I can see how that doesn't matter so much at the cheap runabout end of the market, but if buying higher end, surely with the tax savings and the pull of more advanced tech you just buy new?
burpface said:
I struggle to see the attraction of a used EV and I'm puzzled there is much of a market for the higher end stuff used......
.....And that is before you start to factor in rapidly advancing tech and obsolescence of all things software/tech after 5+ years.
This is probably one of the biggest 'myth' around EVs. Tesla introduced the 85kWh Model S in 2012, it had a range of roughly speaking 250 miles at M-way speeds, that pretty much the same as a brand new Taycan, so in 10 years range has barely changed, why do we think the next 5 years will be different? .....And that is before you start to factor in rapidly advancing tech and obsolescence of all things software/tech after 5+ years.
As for software here is a Tesla Model X made in 2016 (so more than 5 years ago) running the latest self driving beta code that no combustion car onsale to the public today can run.
If you actually look the fundamental costs of keeping an EV longterm, its actually far less than that of a combustion car. The biggest cost is to factor in a battery replacement at 10 years or so, which given the way things are developing shouldn't cost any more than a new combustion engine/gear box etc, however you haven't got a decade worth of 'servicing' to go along with it.
The biggest 'advances' in EV technology hasn't been battery capacity, its been faster DC charging. However all previous laws of chemistry/physics still would suggest the harder/faster you charge a battery the shorter its life span........so if faster (2-3C+) DC charging is actually a good thing for consumers in the long run remains to be seen.
For actual 'sustainability' EV are at worse on parity with combustion cars, in the best case situation may be much better.
Edited by gangzoom on Saturday 6th August 16:36
gangzoom said:
....
If you actually look the fundamental costs of keeping an EV longterm, its actually far less than that of a combustion car. The biggest cost is to factor in a battery replacement at 10 years or so, which given the way things are developing shouldn't cost any more than a new combustion engine/gear box etc, however you haven't got a decade worth of 'servicing' to go along with it.
....
I think that's a load of old Tulip.If you actually look the fundamental costs of keeping an EV longterm, its actually far less than that of a combustion car. The biggest cost is to factor in a battery replacement at 10 years or so, which given the way things are developing shouldn't cost any more than a new combustion engine/gear box etc, however you haven't got a decade worth of 'servicing' to go along with it.
....
Your high mileage EV will be just like my high mileage shed.
The one part of my car which is still fine is the IC engine.
Bodywork, upholstery, body electrics, suspension etc are all showing their age.
The airbags are probably time served.
Hundreds of rubber and plastic bits are showing their age.
I dare say you could find corrosion if you looked deep enough.
How many cars actually die of engine or gearbox problems?
Personally I've scrapped a couple of the cars out of 15 or so I've owned due to engine/transmission, but only in the context of the rest of the car not really being worth the cost of major mechanics.
The battery is not the only part which has a finite life.
And that's without even thinking about the software!
For sure, people will change batteries, but an old EV with a new battery will still be an old eV and probably worth a fraction of a new one, and quite likely unreliable, having been taken to bits and re-assembled in non-factory conditions.
OutInTheShed said:
gangzoom said:
....
If you actually look the fundamental costs of keeping an EV longterm, its actually far less than that of a combustion car. The biggest cost is to factor in a battery replacement at 10 years or so, which given the way things are developing shouldn't cost any more than a new combustion engine/gear box etc, however you haven't got a decade worth of 'servicing' to go along with it.
....
I think that's a load of old Tulip.If you actually look the fundamental costs of keeping an EV longterm, its actually far less than that of a combustion car. The biggest cost is to factor in a battery replacement at 10 years or so, which given the way things are developing shouldn't cost any more than a new combustion engine/gear box etc, however you haven't got a decade worth of 'servicing' to go along with it.
....
Your high mileage EV will be just like my high mileage shed.
The one part of my car which is still fine is the IC engine.
Bodywork, upholstery, body electrics, suspension etc are all showing their age.
The airbags are probably time served.
Hundreds of rubber and plastic bits are showing their age.
I dare say you could find corrosion if you looked deep enough.
How many cars actually die of engine or gearbox problems?
Personally I've scrapped a couple of the cars out of 15 or so I've owned due to engine/transmission, but only in the context of the rest of the car not really being worth the cost of major mechanics.
The battery is not the only part which has a finite life.
And that's without even thinking about the software!
For sure, people will change batteries, but an old EV with a new battery will still be an old eV and probably worth a fraction of a new one, and quite likely unreliable, having been taken to bits and re-assembled in non-factory conditions.
- less corrosion, due to the floor essentially being sealed and now engine bay to retain moisture when puddles splash upward and water sits close to the boywork
- far less sheer wear on sprung components such as CV joints, brake calipers etc, because most of the braking is actually electric retardation that is at the dead centre of the wheel , as opposed to an offset caliper that creates higher sheer force and accelerates material fatigue.
- next to no vibration and in general a smoother drive. Doesn't sound like a big deal, but if you shake any component for ten years non stop the it's going to suffer wear at a different rate to one that isn't shaken half as much.
And not just for EV's but most modern cars, the electrical and electronic architecture is far better than older cars due to less electro-mechanical components to go wrong. Specifically relays which wear themselves and cause electrical gadget issues down the line - and also generate harmful floating point voltage spikes which over a long life can cause issues elsewhere. A twenty year old range rover will suffer more electrical infidelity than a new one in twenty years time.
The move to EV definitely opens up new benefits in terms of car design and longevity. The battery is a potential big expense for a very old EV but as has been said, prices are coming down and very long term it's likely that retro-swapping for new battery tech should be possible. The same as it's possible to buy engine conversion kits for ICE cars.
burpface said:
I struggle to see the attraction of a used EV and I'm puzzled there is much of a market for the higher end stuff used. (not in anyway trying to be inflammatory, and I'm happy to hear others opinions and accept if I am wrong).
As I understand it the attraction of EVs (I am thinking particularly about all the people I know with taycans/Tesla) is all about the tax savings buying through your company that ultimately make for a pretty low cost of ownership. You get a very nice car for much less cost than an ICE alternative. But these advantages aren't there if buying used.
So I understand the bottom end of the used EV market, and the advantage of a cheap and cheerful run about EV. And I understand the top end new EV market. But I can't quite figure the top end used EV market.
And that is before you start to factor in rapidly advancing tech and obsolescence of all things software/tech after 5+ years. Again I can see how that doesn't matter so much at the cheap runabout end of the market, but if buying higher end, surely with the tax savings and the pull of more advanced tech you just buy new?
Top end used EV market will be dramatically cheaper to run, even you don't get all of the tax breaks of a brand new EV. Think about fuel costs vs a high performance petrol/diesel, or the annual servicing costs especially with top end ICE cars that would be getting older and needing more maintainance. As I understand it the attraction of EVs (I am thinking particularly about all the people I know with taycans/Tesla) is all about the tax savings buying through your company that ultimately make for a pretty low cost of ownership. You get a very nice car for much less cost than an ICE alternative. But these advantages aren't there if buying used.
So I understand the bottom end of the used EV market, and the advantage of a cheap and cheerful run about EV. And I understand the top end new EV market. But I can't quite figure the top end used EV market.
And that is before you start to factor in rapidly advancing tech and obsolescence of all things software/tech after 5+ years. Again I can see how that doesn't matter so much at the cheap runabout end of the market, but if buying higher end, surely with the tax savings and the pull of more advanced tech you just buy new?
And depending upon where you live, you could be saving huge amounts of money on stuff like congestion charges, parking etc even with a used top end EV vs running a 5 year old top end petrol/diesel.
20 pence per hour to park an EV in some parts of London on the street vs £11 per hour if you're parking a diesel in the same place (irrespective of how new the diesel is)
raspy said:
Top end used EV market will be dramatically cheaper to run, even you don't get all of the tax breaks of a brand new EV. Think about fuel costs vs a high performance petrol/diesel, or the annual servicing costs especially with top end ICE cars that would be getting older and needing more maintainance.
And depending upon where you live, you could be saving huge amounts of money on stuff like congestion charges, parking etc even with a used top end EV vs running a 5 year old top end petrol/diesel.
20 pence per hour to park an EV in some parts of London on the street vs £11 per hour if you're parking a diesel in the same place (irrespective of how new the diesel is)
Yeah... Good points. And depending upon where you live, you could be saving huge amounts of money on stuff like congestion charges, parking etc even with a used top end EV vs running a 5 year old top end petrol/diesel.
20 pence per hour to park an EV in some parts of London on the street vs £11 per hour if you're parking a diesel in the same place (irrespective of how new the diesel is)
OutInTheShed said:
I think that's a load of old Tulip.
I'll let you know how it goes. I plan to keep ours for a while yet.OutInTheShed said:
Bodywork, upholstery, body electrics, suspension etc are all showing their age.
As you mention it, just washed our today, not quite 'As new' but the paint work is fine as is the interior. Suspension as I've mentioned the local independent can sort it, as for body electrics - not really sure what bit you mean, but none of it are massive show stopper items.
OutInTheShed said:
And that's without even thinking about the software!
What are you worried with software? My main 'productivity' laptop is soon going to be 10 years old, really not sure what software bits in a car there is of concern?Our EV actually has been the MOST UNRELIABLE car I have ever owned, especially in the first 2-3 years of its life. It was going back and forth to the dealership every 2-3 months. But since then things have actually been 'better'. The biggest cost items will be battery, motor, and charger out of warranty - a refurbed battery is £10K from Tesla, motors are £5K from Tesla but there are 2 so potential £10K bill, charging circuit can/have also reported to go - Tesla quotes are £3-5K.
Am certainly not going into owning one of these thing longterm blind, but none of those cost are out of proportion with the £71K we paid for the car back in 2016. As I say, I'll let you know how it goes, but there is quite a few years to go before I can let you know
.
raspy said:
burpface said:
I struggle to see the attraction of a used EV and I'm puzzled there is much of a market for the higher end stuff used. (not in anyway trying to be inflammatory, and I'm happy to hear others opinions and accept if I am wrong).
As I understand it the attraction of EVs (I am thinking particularly about all the people I know with taycans/Tesla) is all about the tax savings buying through your company that ultimately make for a pretty low cost of ownership. You get a very nice car for much less cost than an ICE alternative. But these advantages aren't there if buying used.
So I understand the bottom end of the used EV market, and the advantage of a cheap and cheerful run about EV. And I understand the top end new EV market. But I can't quite figure the top end used EV market.
And that is before you start to factor in rapidly advancing tech and obsolescence of all things software/tech after 5+ years. Again I can see how that doesn't matter so much at the cheap runabout end of the market, but if buying higher end, surely with the tax savings and the pull of more advanced tech you just buy new?
Top end used EV market will be dramatically cheaper to run, even you don't get all of the tax breaks of a brand new EV. Think about fuel costs vs a high performance petrol/diesel, or the annual servicing costs especially with top end ICE cars that would be getting older and needing more maintainance. As I understand it the attraction of EVs (I am thinking particularly about all the people I know with taycans/Tesla) is all about the tax savings buying through your company that ultimately make for a pretty low cost of ownership. You get a very nice car for much less cost than an ICE alternative. But these advantages aren't there if buying used.
So I understand the bottom end of the used EV market, and the advantage of a cheap and cheerful run about EV. And I understand the top end new EV market. But I can't quite figure the top end used EV market.
And that is before you start to factor in rapidly advancing tech and obsolescence of all things software/tech after 5+ years. Again I can see how that doesn't matter so much at the cheap runabout end of the market, but if buying higher end, surely with the tax savings and the pull of more advanced tech you just buy new?
And depending upon where you live, you could be saving huge amounts of money on stuff like congestion charges, parking etc even with a used top end EV vs running a 5 year old top end petrol/diesel.
20 pence per hour to park an EV in some parts of London on the street vs £11 per hour if you're parking a diesel in the same place (irrespective of how new the diesel is)
I'm told my iPace at 80k is expensive and I'm paying an early adopters premium...ok. How much is an ICE luxury suv with 400hp?
And whatever the amount, high performance ICE SUV's always lose money incredibly quickly, because nobody wants the running costs once the car is no longer the current model. EV on the other hand can develop several hundred horsepower with no real running cost impact if you drive it reasonably. A V8 supercharged range rover on the other hand will never return decent economy no matter how you drive it, and still isn't as quick or nimble anyway.
burpface said:
As I understand it the attraction of EVs (I am thinking particularly about all the people I know with taycans/Tesla) is all about the tax savings buying through your company that ultimately make for a pretty low cost of ownership. You get a very nice car for much less cost than an ICE alternative. But these advantages aren't there if buying used.
I agree. I think the high end will get hammered for this reason. There is a certain value with an EV that you can justify based on fuel savings etc but that ceases to be relevant at a not very high price point. TheDeuce said:
When people compare EV to ICE side by side the performance aspect is often conveniently forgotten.
I'm told my iPace at 80k is expensive and I'm paying an early adopters premium...ok. How much is an ICE luxury suv with 400hp?
And whatever the amount, high performance ICE SUV's always lose money incredibly quickly, because nobody wants the running costs once the car is no longer the current model. EV on the other hand can develop several hundred horsepower with no real running cost impact if you drive it reasonably. On the other hand, a V8 supercharged range rover will never return decent economy no matter how you drive it, and still isn't as quick or nimble anyway.
Not sure the Ipace is a good car to talk about residuals, if your Ipace was 80k that suggests it's an HSE which are now for sale at three years old for 42K and trade-in for 37K that is a drop of 42k in three years.I'm told my iPace at 80k is expensive and I'm paying an early adopters premium...ok. How much is an ICE luxury suv with 400hp?
And whatever the amount, high performance ICE SUV's always lose money incredibly quickly, because nobody wants the running costs once the car is no longer the current model. EV on the other hand can develop several hundred horsepower with no real running cost impact if you drive it reasonably. On the other hand, a V8 supercharged range rover will never return decent economy no matter how you drive it, and still isn't as quick or nimble anyway.
Compare that to a Jaguar F Pace SVR which was 80k. the cheapest 3-year-old one on auto trader is 51K
And as for the power side, the ipace is down 150bhp and 0.5 of a second to 60 to the F pace SVR.
TheRainMaker said:
TheDeuce said:
When people compare EV to ICE side by side the performance aspect is often conveniently forgotten.
I'm told my iPace at 80k is expensive and I'm paying an early adopters premium...ok. How much is an ICE luxury suv with 400hp?
And whatever the amount, high performance ICE SUV's always lose money incredibly quickly, because nobody wants the running costs once the car is no longer the current model. EV on the other hand can develop several hundred horsepower with no real running cost impact if you drive it reasonably. On the other hand, a V8 supercharged range rover will never return decent economy no matter how you drive it, and still isn't as quick or nimble anyway.
Not sure the Ipace is a good car to talk about residuals, if your Ipace was 80k that suggests it's an HSE which are now for sale at three years old for 42K and trade-in for 37K that is a drop of 42k in three years.I'm told my iPace at 80k is expensive and I'm paying an early adopters premium...ok. How much is an ICE luxury suv with 400hp?
And whatever the amount, high performance ICE SUV's always lose money incredibly quickly, because nobody wants the running costs once the car is no longer the current model. EV on the other hand can develop several hundred horsepower with no real running cost impact if you drive it reasonably. On the other hand, a V8 supercharged range rover will never return decent economy no matter how you drive it, and still isn't as quick or nimble anyway.
Compare that to a Jaguar F Pace SVR which was 80k. the cheapest 3-year-old one on auto trader is 51K
And as for the power side, the ipace is down 150bhp and 0.5 of a second to 60 to the F pace SVR.
Regardless, the f-pace is nowhere near as agile as the i-pace and give it another couple of years and it's value will plummet the way all out ageing cars with big engines do, because they're simply not desirable enough anymore to warrant the running costs. The ipace however will still exceed the overall economy of a tiny towncar and still offer plenty of fun whenever you give it a kicking.
I note the f-pace is also lower miles and I haven't checked but I imagine at that price it's quite well specced.
TheDeuce said:
TheRainMaker said:
TheDeuce said:
When people compare EV to ICE side by side the performance aspect is often conveniently forgotten.
I'm told my iPace at 80k is expensive and I'm paying an early adopters premium...ok. How much is an ICE luxury suv with 400hp?
And whatever the amount, high performance ICE SUV's always lose money incredibly quickly, because nobody wants the running costs once the car is no longer the current model. EV on the other hand can develop several hundred horsepower with no real running cost impact if you drive it reasonably. On the other hand, a V8 supercharged range rover will never return decent economy no matter how you drive it, and still isn't as quick or nimble anyway.
Not sure the Ipace is a good car to talk about residuals, if your Ipace was 80k that suggests it's an HSE which are now for sale at three years old for 42K and trade-in for 37K that is a drop of 42k in three years.I'm told my iPace at 80k is expensive and I'm paying an early adopters premium...ok. How much is an ICE luxury suv with 400hp?
And whatever the amount, high performance ICE SUV's always lose money incredibly quickly, because nobody wants the running costs once the car is no longer the current model. EV on the other hand can develop several hundred horsepower with no real running cost impact if you drive it reasonably. On the other hand, a V8 supercharged range rover will never return decent economy no matter how you drive it, and still isn't as quick or nimble anyway.
Compare that to a Jaguar F Pace SVR which was 80k. the cheapest 3-year-old one on auto trader is 51K
And as for the power side, the ipace is down 150bhp and 0.5 of a second to 60 to the F pace SVR.
Regardless, the f-pace is nowhere near as agile as the i-pace and give it another couple of years and it's value will plummet the way all out ageing cars with big engines do, because they're simply not desirable enough anymore to warrant the running costs. The ipace however will still exceed the overall economy of a tiny towncar and still offer plenty of fun whenever you give it a kicking.
I note the f-pace is also lower miles and I haven't checked but I imagine at that price it's quite well specced.
The F-Pace SVR outperforms the I-Pace on every level.
It out accelerates it
0-60 4.1 v 4.5
It has a higher top speed
178 mph v 124 mph
It has more power to weight
258 bhp per tonne v 178 bhp per tonne
it can stop faster
70 mph - 0 in 53m v 60m
It weighs less
1995kg v 2208kg
Hard to see how you can say it's more "agile"
TheRainMaker said:
You just like making stuff up don't you
The F-Pace SVR outperforms the I-Pace on every level.
It out accelerates it
0-60 4.1 v 4.5
It has a higher top speed
178 mph v 124 mph
It has more power to weight
258 bhp per tonne v 178 bhp per tonne
it can stop faster
70 mph - 0 in 53m v 60m
It weighs less
1995kg v 2208kg
Hard to see how you can say it's more "agile"
Do you understand the word agile?The F-Pace SVR outperforms the I-Pace on every level.
It out accelerates it
0-60 4.1 v 4.5
It has a higher top speed
178 mph v 124 mph
It has more power to weight
258 bhp per tonne v 178 bhp per tonne
it can stop faster
70 mph - 0 in 53m v 60m
It weighs less
1995kg v 2208kg
Hard to see how you can say it's more "agile"
JLR were one of my clients for 8 years, I've had endless access to all of their lineup. Guess what - the lower iPace with a super low CoG is more agile than the bloated f-pace SVR with a heavy V8 mounted up front and above the axle...
I'm not and have not claimed the f-pace SVR isn't quick, but it's not the same sort of thing as the i-pace. It's more like a slightly sportier range rover Velar I guess. No ICE SUV is going to be as agile as an EV equivalent. The classic problem with SUV's is the poor CoG. In an EV, all the drivetrain weight is on or beneath the axle centers.
TheDeuce said:
And whatever the amount, high performance ICE SUV's always lose money incredibly quickly, because nobody wants the running costs once the car is no longer the current model.
Lets fact check that.I-Pace HSE new £80000.00 now worth £40000.00 after 3 years
Range Rover Sport Supercharged new £100000.00 cheapest on Autotrader after 3 years is £75000.00
TheRainMaker said:
TheDeuce said:
No ICE SUV is going to be as agile as an EV equivalent.
What total rubbish 
I suppose if you want to make a point I would concede that the Urus is very agile if we're to accept it's an 'SUV'.
But beyond such extreme exceptions I think I'm right - the EV powertrain makes low CoG and nimble SUV's possible in a way that ICE prevented.
burpface said:
As I understand it the attraction of EVs (I am thinking particularly about all the people I know with taycans/Tesla) is all about the tax savings buying through your company that ultimately make for a pretty low cost of ownership. You get a very nice car for much less cost than an ICE alternative. But these advantages aren't there if buying used.
The advantages absolutely are available when buying used, which is helping underpin values, alongside lack of supply.I ran a used Model X for a little over a year, the only option not available is 100% corp tax relief in the first year on a used EV but that nets out on resale anyway. It just goes in a capital asset pool with 18% depreciation YoY. We just sold for 12k more than the company paid for it and bought a Y instead. We'll pay corp tax on the profit - it goes both ways!
I've opted not to take 100% relief in Year 1 as CT goes up next year, I don't want to take 'relief' at 19% then pay it back at 25% potentially.
Until recently I'd have said without the financial benefits I would stay ICE, but actually the Y is making a good case outside of the Ltd Co benefits.
TheRainMaker said:
TheDeuce said:
TheRainMaker said:
TheDeuce said:
When people compare EV to ICE side by side the performance aspect is often conveniently forgotten.
I'm told my iPace at 80k is expensive and I'm paying an early adopters premium...ok. How much is an ICE luxury suv with 400hp?
And whatever the amount, high performance ICE SUV's always lose money incredibly quickly, because nobody wants the running costs once the car is no longer the current model. EV on the other hand can develop several hundred horsepower with no real running cost impact if you drive it reasonably. On the other hand, a V8 supercharged range rover will never return decent economy no matter how you drive it, and still isn't as quick or nimble anyway.
Not sure the Ipace is a good car to talk about residuals, if your Ipace was 80k that suggests it's an HSE which are now for sale at three years old for 42K and trade-in for 37K that is a drop of 42k in three years.I'm told my iPace at 80k is expensive and I'm paying an early adopters premium...ok. How much is an ICE luxury suv with 400hp?
And whatever the amount, high performance ICE SUV's always lose money incredibly quickly, because nobody wants the running costs once the car is no longer the current model. EV on the other hand can develop several hundred horsepower with no real running cost impact if you drive it reasonably. On the other hand, a V8 supercharged range rover will never return decent economy no matter how you drive it, and still isn't as quick or nimble anyway.
Compare that to a Jaguar F Pace SVR which was 80k. the cheapest 3-year-old one on auto trader is 51K
And as for the power side, the ipace is down 150bhp and 0.5 of a second to 60 to the F pace SVR.
Regardless, the f-pace is nowhere near as agile as the i-pace and give it another couple of years and it's value will plummet the way all out ageing cars with big engines do, because they're simply not desirable enough anymore to warrant the running costs. The ipace however will still exceed the overall economy of a tiny towncar and still offer plenty of fun whenever you give it a kicking.
I note the f-pace is also lower miles and I haven't checked but I imagine at that price it's quite well specced.
The F-Pace SVR outperforms the I-Pace on every level.
It out accelerates it
0-60 4.1 v 4.5
It has a higher top speed
178 mph v 124 mph
It has more power to weight
258 bhp per tonne v 178 bhp per tonne
it can stop faster
70 mph - 0 in 53m v 60m
It weighs less
1995kg v 2208kg
Hard to see how you can say it's more "agile"
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