Are Electric Cars the biggest con on the planet?

[SWoll]

GT9 said:

ruggedscotty said:

It is a huge benefit in terms of drive ability. obtain a level of performance and range. Some wont need a huge battery but wont want to trade off on performance.

The number of people who have told me that their EV has 'too much range' currently stands at zero.
Maybe your experience is different.

Ours does for 99.9% of trips we do, yet the revised version has a significantly larger battery + range as that's what the public demands apparently. Got to be able to an arbitrary 300 miles in order to be considered useful I'm told.

[theboss]

Indeed, my EV with the smallest range (Mini) did as many miles last year as the bigger EV (e-tron) and ICE car combined.

Nothing wrong with ~100 mile range if you use that car to do 80 miles a day with little scope for deviation and have other cars for longer journeys.

[GT9]

SWoll said:

Ours does for 99.9% of trips we do, yet the revised version has a significantly larger battery + range as that's what the public demands apparently. Got to be able to an arbitrary 300 miles in order to be considered useful I'm told.

I suspect if you factor in an end-of-life battery operating in the depths of winter, that might temper things a bit.

[DonkeyApple]

theboss said:

Indeed, my EV with the smallest range (Mini) did as many miles last year as the bigger EV (e-tron) and ICE car combined.

Nothing wrong with ~100 mile range if you use that car to do 80 miles a day with little scope for deviation and have other cars for longer journeys.

It's a crippling issue when you head off towards a town that's 10 miles away to purchase some food but then decide, on the way, that you want to buy bread from a town 500 miles away.

The issue is that while there are millions of car users who have a driveway, a couple of cars and a lifestyle where one of those cars just needs a daily range of 100 miles and that car does the bulk of the household daily mileage, there are also millions of car users who don't have a small suburban runabout out of choice but from financial necessity and that small car has to be used all the time for all use cases. So like the others, most of the time that small car just does local pottering or a regular commute but there is no second or third car to fall back on, there's less job security and usually higher annual mileages due to lower income.

You can see the concern of this group in that their single small car has to be cheap to purchase as well as cheap to run but has to be able to do all jobs required which will involve longer distances journeys as well as needing to be flexible to cover changes in commuting distances due to lower job stability.

We can rationalise that in 20 or so years time there will be cheap, used EVs and pan U.K. remote charging for all but we can't deny that ste Li battery tech which blights all of us is a much more serious issue the less income or wealth someone has.

Higher wealth means greater ease at overcoming the shortfalls of having to load an EV with huge, heavy, dirty, expensive and generally all round rubbish blocks of chemical bricks but as income or wealth decreases so does the ease at which one can circumnavigate the issues caused by having to use 90s laptop and phone battery tech to move a car as no bespoke battery solution for cars yet exists.

This does mean that EVs currently represent an economic divide which is regressive where the lower the income the lower the flexibility, usability, the higher the taxes, the higher the running costs.

As a society, we do want to be reversing these costs so that they are progressive but more importantly it really is vital that we discover an energy storage technology that is correct for vehicles and break away from the current borrowed tech as soon as possible. Literally every tangible issue that anyone has with any EVs all boils down to crap batteries. Weak battery tech across a range of sectors is retarding global society. It's so bad for cars that the Germans have lost the plot completely and are trying to import ultra expensive and inefficient Chilean tramp juice to move some cars!!!

[Maracus]

theboss said:

Indeed, my EV with the smallest range (Mini) did as many miles last year as the bigger EV (e-tron) and ICE car combined.

Nothing wrong with ~100 mile range if you use that car to do 80 miles a day with little scope for deviation and have other cars for longer journeys.

Pretty much what we have, albeit the main car in a Standard Range Model 3. Works well as you say.

[SteveKTMer]

DonkeyApple said:

This does mean that EVs currently represent an economic divide which is regressive where the lower the income the lower the flexibility, usability, the higher the taxes, the higher the running costs.

Also many of the people who would benefit from a small EV, people who live in cities in apartments, flats, terraced houses or any home that doesn't have a driveway (most of London for example) will have to use public chargers, which are always going to be expensive as provided by third parties and almost certainly not close to their homes. That's a significant deterrent to many people buying a BEV, including the more wealthy who can afford the car and charging but don't want to have to park a mile away and walk home while their car charges, then go back a couple of hours later to move it to another parking space not on a charger to avoid the fine for needlessly occupying a charger space.

[SWoll]

GT9 said:

SWoll said:

Ours does for 99.9% of trips we do, yet the revised version has a significantly larger battery + range as that's what the public demands apparently. Got to be able to an arbitrary 300 miles in order to be considered useful I'm told.

I suspect if you factor in an end-of-life battery operating in the depths of winter, that might temper things a bit.

What would you consider end of life?

The vast majority of our trips are < 50 miles and the car will do 180 miles in the depths of winter so would need to have dropped to about 35% of it's original capacity for it to be a problem.

The whole range anxiety thing I've always found laughable. As an example if a manufacturer offered a loan of an EV with a much larger battery for 2 weeks per year and the standard car only did 100 miles, how many people do you think would still pay considerably more for the larger battery model?

My FIL is a perfect example. Couldn't have an EV because they do 2 trips a year down to Dorset apparently. The other 361 days of the year I doubt they do more than 30 miles in a day.

Edited by SWoll on Thursday 16th March 10:48

[GT9]

SWoll said:

What would you consider end of life?

100,000 mile+, c.10% degraded battery.

At say -5 degrees C.

[SWoll]

GT9 said:

SWoll said:

What would you consider end of life?

100,000 mile+, c.10% degraded battery.

At say -5 degrees C.

Are you suggesting an example of a used 100k+ mile EV with only 10% battery capacity remaining?

If not then 90% would still offer 160 miles, so many multiples of our average daily requirement.

[whirlybird]

Well guys, guess who's back. Hurrah I hear you all cry !!!!! Where has he been for the past week.????

You'll never guess what happened on the way to the Forum ???

I got banned for 7 days.



You would think I got banned for spending time out in Romania,Driving a Gold Plated Bugatti & getting girls to get their kit off on a webcam, all while having a dodgy hair transplant in Turkey.

But No, none of the above I got banned,................ wait for it,

FOR POSTING A SPOOF CAR SALES ADVERT BY 'HARRY ENFIELD & CHUMS '( Currently available on YT )

[GT9]

SWoll said:

Are you suggesting an example of a used 100k+ mile EV with only 10% battery capacity remaining?

If not then 90% would still offer 160 miles, so many multiples of our average daily requirement.

It would seem then that I have now met a person whose EV has 'too much range'.
Be honest though, would you be happy with the same car and a substantially smaller battery.

[SWoll]

GT9 said:

SWoll said:

Are you suggesting an example of a used 100k+ mile EV with only 10% battery capacity remaining?

If not then 90% would still offer 160 miles, so many multiples of our average daily requirement.

It would seem then that I have now met a person whose EV has 'too much range'.
Be honest though, would you be happy with the same car and a substantially smaller battery.

Yes, as it would be considerably lighter and better to drive, more spacious, more efficient and cost less. I'm essentially having to put up with all of those compromises for the sake of a handful of trips per year, as are the vast majority of EV drivers I'd suggest. You simply can't buy a large EV without a large battery being part of the package

Edited by SWoll on Thursday 16th March 13:54

[Pixelpeep Electric]

SWoll said:

Yes, as it would be considerably lighter and better to drive, more spacious, more efficient and cost less. I'm essentially having to put up with all of those compromises for the sake of a handful of trips per year, as are the vast majority of EV drivers I'd suggest. You simply can't buy a large EV without a large battery being part of the package

Edited by SWoll on Thursday 16th March 13:54

I have the same with power - i want a quick car, so if i want a quick EV it needs a large battery. My daily commute is 60 mile round trip.

I'm happy with the compromise though

[SWoll]

Pixelpeep Electric said:

SWoll said:

Yes, as it would be considerably lighter and better to drive, more spacious, more efficient and cost less. I'm essentially having to put up with all of those compromises for the sake of a handful of trips per year, as are the vast majority of EV drivers I'd suggest. You simply can't buy a large EV without a large battery being part of the package

Edited by SWoll on Thursday 16th March 13:54

I have the same with power - i want a quick car, so if i want a quick EV it needs a large battery. My daily commute is 60 mile round trip.

I'm happy with the compromise though

We've had an i3, Model 3 P and now an eTron 55 all with varying levels of performance. In all honesty the i3 was plenty quick enough for the kind of driving we regularly do.

[DonkeyApple]

SteveKTMer said:

Also many of the people who would benefit from a small EV, people who live in cities in apartments, flats, terraced houses or any home that doesn't have a driveway (most of London for example) will have to use public chargers, which are always going to be expensive as provided by third parties and almost certainly not close to their homes. That's a significant deterrent to many people buying a BEV, including the more wealthy who can afford the car and charging but don't want to have to park a mile away and walk home while their car charges, then go back a couple of hours later to move it to another parking space not on a charger to avoid the fine for needlessly occupying a charger space.

Destination charging is the real key. I personally don't buy into the idea that there will be loads of street chargers. It won't happen because there simply isn't enough revenue from selling a small amount of electricity to one customer a day.

People who can't charge where they park at home will charge where they park away from home. The price of that electricity will need to be billed to a domestic account for equity not the current system of the meter owner also being an energy vendor.

[Mart65]

I was actually involved in some research around motivating factors for buying EVs and I don’t think saving the planet was really brought up much.
If you look at the various surveys that are done periodically (often to generate a sound bite like ‘more than half of consumers want an EV’) it’s price that stands out for me.
Still - I do think it’s ‘coolness’ isn’t it? If you’re a modern, successful person does having a classic hurt your image because it’s perceived as polluting the planet - or not as flashy as a Lambo? Maybe having a converted EV version the image is seen as pushing the old quality but bringing into the modern day - I bet watch enthusiasts would be similarly disgusted with smart versions of classic watches.

[dvs_dave]

whirlybird said:

Well guys, guess who's back. Hurrah I hear you all cry !!!!! Where has he been for the past week.????

You'll never guess what happened on the way to the Forum ???

I got banned for 7 days.



You would think I got banned for spending time out in Romania,Driving a Gold Plated Bugatti & getting girls to get their kit off on a webcam, all while having a dodgy hair transplant in Turkey.

But No, none of the above I got banned,................ wait for it,

FOR POSTING A SPOOF CAR SALES ADVERT BY 'HARRY ENFIELD & CHUMS '( Currently available on YT )

Who are you, again?

[DonkeyApple]

Mart65 said:

I was actually involved in some research around motivating factors for buying EVs and I don’t think saving the planet was really brought up much.
If you look at the various surveys that are done periodically (often to generate a sound bite like ‘more than half of consumers want an EV’) it’s price that stands out for me.
Still - I do think it’s ‘coolness’ isn’t it? If you’re a modern, successful person does having a classic hurt your image because it’s perceived as polluting the planet - or not as flashy as a Lambo? Maybe having a converted EV version the image is seen as pushing the old quality but bringing into the modern day - I bet watch enthusiasts would be similarly disgusted with smart versions of classic watches.

It's a consistent failing of many 'movements', their failure to understand that their drivers are actually the minority view and what always has and always will dominate end consumer decision is numbers.

It's always about the money. Even when people are shouting something else from the rooftops it remains about the money. Whether it's saving money or being seen to have more of it than the next person it remains all about the money.

A decade ago on PH there were a few people who argued that EVs would be bought because people wanted to save the world. This view was countered with the reality that when it comes to saving the world people will only do the little things. At a base level that's just verbal platitudes but the top level generally tends to be as utterly low as recycling something they never needed to buy or buying more things that claim to be eco.

EVs only took off just a few years ago because the product stopped targeting a consumer market that doesn't exist and instead seized the consumer rule book and played every card in the deck so that suddenly big spenders wanted these goods outside their house, wanted to be seen with them, wanted to be associated with them. The eco credentials were relegated to just being part of the superior sales gimmicks. It took an American to understand how to market and sell properly.

Loading onto that then came proper tax incentives.

And this year while image, desirability, finance, tax benefits and dirt cheap electricity, all money matters, keep driving growing demand the negatives are all money based: can't get cheap electricity. Used EVs are too expensive. They're just for rich people. The poor can't afford new £100k cars. New prices are too high.

If 2035 is to stand in any form and if we are to continue the very slow but steady switch to EV and if we want the U.K. to settle and accept EVs then we should dump all this eco twaddle and worthless platitudes and just focus 100% on the money story. The whole pitch for the switch should be about money not any greenwashed, spun eco tripe that is beloved by aspiring death camp commandants who live in Islington.

Nothing works in a consumer society other than aspiration, money and their facilitation. People like to do the right thing and that shouldn't be ignored but 'doing the right thing' or more commonly ' saying the right thing when someone might be listening' doesn't shift goods, doesn't get stuff done and is the just waffle and verbiage which at best can help sell some debt contracts.

[SteveKTMer]

DonkeyApple said:

SteveKTMer said:

Also many of the people who would benefit from a small EV, people who live in cities in apartments, flats, terraced houses or any home that doesn't have a driveway (most of London for example) will have to use public chargers, which are always going to be expensive as provided by third parties and almost certainly not close to their homes. That's a significant deterrent to many people buying a BEV, including the more wealthy who can afford the car and charging but don't want to have to park a mile away and walk home while their car charges, then go back a couple of hours later to move it to another parking space not on a charger to avoid the fine for needlessly occupying a charger space.

Destination charging is the real key. I personally don't buy into the idea that there will be loads of street chargers. It won't happen because there simply isn't enough revenue from selling a small amount of electricity to one customer a day.

People who can't charge where they park at home will charge where they park away from home. The price of that electricity will need to be billed to a domestic account for equity not the current system of the meter owner also being an energy vendor.

So every car park, every hotel, every factory, every office, every Hospital, every council office - most of which don't have sufficient parking now, will have to convert 50% (?) of parking space into an EV charging space ? Good luck with that ! This is why BEV sales will plateau long before the 100% mark - if a significant proportion of the car using population cannot charge at home or at work and there aren't sufficient chargers at the supermarket or hospital, they won't buy a BEV and will just pay a higher tax (which is incoming soon !) for keeping an ICE car.

So what happens in 2040 ? It's only 17 years away, 5 years of no ICE sales, if manufacturers don't give up on ICE before then as some appear to be doing now with no new development. The government shows no signs of understanding the numbers of chargers required so it's going to be crazy busy atBEV chargers whilst fuel companies are charging £4/litre for petrol and raking it in with limited incentive to convert much space to EV chargers.

Who knows, maybe it'll all change and a single charge will last 90% of people 90% of their week ? But I think that's a bit far fetched right now with current battery and charging tech.

[whirlybird]

dvs_dave said:

whirlybird said:

Well guys, guess who's back. Hurrah I hear you all cry !!!!! Where has he been for the past week.????

You'll never guess what happened on the way to the Forum ???

I got banned for 7 days.



You would think I got banned for spending time out in Romania,Driving a Gold Plated Bugatti & getting girls to get their kit off on a webcam, all while having a dodgy hair transplant in Turkey.

But No, none of the above I got banned,................ wait for it,

FOR POSTING A SPOOF CAR SALES ADVERT BY 'HARRY ENFIELD & CHUMS '( Currently available on YT )

Who are you, again?

The guy that got you and your chums to get this thread close to 6000 posts, that's who I am. Sorry, but who are you exactly ???

Edited by whirlybird on Friday 17th March 10:41