Why exactly is the public charging network so flakey?
Discussion
I'm a well known supporter of the EV movement on these forums, and it's a tough slog sometimes because there are a lot of poor assumptions and misinformation made about the cars - as ever a new solution is a tough sell. That's fair enough, I expect and celebrate that people question what is new.
But one thing really rankles me is that of all the real challenges that EV adoption faces, there is one entirely inexplicable and ridiculous challenge, and that is the flakey and awkward nature of public chargers.
Why on earth is it that so many are unreliable? Why does it have to be so complicated to use some of them? I appreciate that public chargers are connected devices that need to process payments and authorise usage by user cards etc - but half the stuff in my house that has a plug is connected and controllable from anywhere in the world and it all just works. I've used chargers where they have refused to commence charging and upon calling the assistance number I've been told 'it just needs resetting, I'll do that now, please wait a few minutes and try again'.. Why does something so basic need a reset to function? It's not a supercomputer, how has it managed to tie itself in knots in the first place?
Tesla supercharger users need not reply, we know you're ok. But whilst you should rightly feel smug, the supercharger network is evidence that actually it can all work seamlessly consistently. Why can no other provider seem to achieve such a basic and reliable level of consistent functionality?
It's a real problem, but I can't quite get my head around why it has to be such a problem. It's not rocket science to authorise and begin a charging session.
Discuss...
But one thing really rankles me is that of all the real challenges that EV adoption faces, there is one entirely inexplicable and ridiculous challenge, and that is the flakey and awkward nature of public chargers.
Why on earth is it that so many are unreliable? Why does it have to be so complicated to use some of them? I appreciate that public chargers are connected devices that need to process payments and authorise usage by user cards etc - but half the stuff in my house that has a plug is connected and controllable from anywhere in the world and it all just works. I've used chargers where they have refused to commence charging and upon calling the assistance number I've been told 'it just needs resetting, I'll do that now, please wait a few minutes and try again'.. Why does something so basic need a reset to function? It's not a supercomputer, how has it managed to tie itself in knots in the first place?
Tesla supercharger users need not reply, we know you're ok. But whilst you should rightly feel smug, the supercharger network is evidence that actually it can all work seamlessly consistently. Why can no other provider seem to achieve such a basic and reliable level of consistent functionality?
It's a real problem, but I can't quite get my head around why it has to be such a problem. It's not rocket science to authorise and begin a charging session.
Discuss...
My guesstimate on the reset is that the payment software lost connection to the payment server because it’s using a flakey mobile connection and many TCP/IP stacks are a bit brain dead and hang in these types of situations. You’ll see that on your phone as well if you’re in a weak coverage area, you’ll need to reset apps to get them to talk to the network again. You can obviously work around this in software but this stuff is hard to test so you only see it intermittently in the field. And somehow or another it has become acceptable to call someone up instead of fixing it. Tbf the makers of chargers are probably not software companies so they made some naive mistakes at the start like relying on some Mickey Mouse outfit to provide the payment infrastructure.
Then on the chargers themselves, they do fail. I think the first gen chargers were quite unreliable but better these days. It seems no one thought of maintenance at the start either.
Then you have the protocol between the charger and the car that can mess things up too.
It sure as hell should work better than it is.
Then on the chargers themselves, they do fail. I think the first gen chargers were quite unreliable but better these days. It seems no one thought of maintenance at the start either.
Then you have the protocol between the charger and the car that can mess things up too.
It sure as hell should work better than it is.
OutInTheShed said:
Because, thus far, very few people actually want public charging very often.
Until people routinely want it, and will happily pay the true cost for someone to make a proper business out of providing it, it will be mickey mouse.
I can't accept that. I know of modern high speed chargers that are consistently busy but still I hear complaints of them failing often. I hardly use public chargers myself but I reckon 20-30% of the ones I have used or tried to use have failed me in some way.Until people routinely want it, and will happily pay the true cost for someone to make a proper business out of providing it, it will be mickey mouse.
Tesla's network just works, why can't the other networks? This is not high tech stuff.
DMZ said:
My guesstimate on the reset is that the payment software lost connection to the payment server because it’s using a flakey mobile connection and many TCP/IP stacks are a bit brain dead and hang in these types of situations. You’ll see that on your phone as well if you’re in a weak coverage area, you’ll need to reset apps to get them to talk to the network again. You can obviously work around this in software but this stuff is hard to test so you only see it intermittently in the field. And somehow or another it has become acceptable to call someone up instead of fixing it. Tbf the makers of chargers are probably not software companies so they made some naive mistakes at the start like relying on some Mickey Mouse outfit to provide the payment infrastructure.
Then on the chargers themselves, they do fail. I think the first gen chargers were quite unreliable but better these days. It seems no one thought of maintenance at the start either.
Then you have the protocol between the charger and the car that can mess things up too.
It sure as hell should work better than it is.
I hear you on the point about solidity of remote connection, but again... The Tesla network requires that too and makes it work.Then on the chargers themselves, they do fail. I think the first gen chargers were quite unreliable but better these days. It seems no one thought of maintenance at the start either.
Then you have the protocol between the charger and the car that can mess things up too.
It sure as hell should work better than it is.
I have noticed that my cars 4/5g connection is generally far better than my phone's, I suspect because it can use a larger loop to pickup the signal and boost it than a 6mm thick smartphone can afford. This should be true of chargers too surely? Or just extend the wired net connection to the petrol station/supermarket or whatever next door that also authorises card payments via the net faultlessly day in day out.
I would guess because the tech is very new and a lot of it has been rushed to sale.
I very briefly worked for a company linked to BP and eventually bought by them and their stuff was very poorly and cheaply made by minimum wage people and a company looking to cash in and make a quick buck, which they did as they were bought by BP, hundreds were thrown together a week, so imagine that over several countries and you have a very poorly built product, we had very few tools, were begging and borrowing stuff all the time. And the quality was not really even checked beyond simple on and off.
It was a joke, so it does not shock me that some chargers do not work or are flaky, a flashy panel and app is not even half the job, how much has this stuff been properly tested with multiple uses, in different weathers, with disrupted connections, been abused by users.
Plenty of companies were aching to get into the market as certain people were chomping at the bit to have charging stations notably hotels and mainly services, but that means you will get some very bad people trying to make the for a quick buck, which is why you might find such flaky quality.
I very briefly worked for a company linked to BP and eventually bought by them and their stuff was very poorly and cheaply made by minimum wage people and a company looking to cash in and make a quick buck, which they did as they were bought by BP, hundreds were thrown together a week, so imagine that over several countries and you have a very poorly built product, we had very few tools, were begging and borrowing stuff all the time. And the quality was not really even checked beyond simple on and off.
It was a joke, so it does not shock me that some chargers do not work or are flaky, a flashy panel and app is not even half the job, how much has this stuff been properly tested with multiple uses, in different weathers, with disrupted connections, been abused by users.
Plenty of companies were aching to get into the market as certain people were chomping at the bit to have charging stations notably hotels and mainly services, but that means you will get some very bad people trying to make the for a quick buck, which is why you might find such flaky quality.
LukeBrown66 said:
I would guess because the tech is very new and a lot of it has been rushed to sale.
I very briefly worked for a company linked to BP and eventually bought by them and their stuff was very poorly and cheaply made by minimum wage people and a company looking to cash in and make a quick buck, which they did as they were bought by BP, hundreds were thrown together a week, so imagine that over several countries and you have a very poorly built product, we had very few tools, were begging and borrowing stuff all the time. And the quality was not really even checked beyond simple on and off.
It was a joke, so it does not shock me that some chargers do not work or are flaky, a flashy panel and app is not even half the job, how much has this stuff been properly tested with multiple uses, in different weathers, with disrupted connections, been abused by users.
Plenty of companies were aching to get into the market as certain people were chomping at the bit to have charging stations notably hotels and mainly services, but that means you will get some very bad people trying to make the for a quick buck, which is why you might find such flaky quality.
I don't see that any of the tech in an EV charger is new or particularly complicated. I would expect that a firm producing the units wanting to be remotely competitive would pay fairly low wages for, essentially assembly work, and would need to produce hundreds of units a week.I very briefly worked for a company linked to BP and eventually bought by them and their stuff was very poorly and cheaply made by minimum wage people and a company looking to cash in and make a quick buck, which they did as they were bought by BP, hundreds were thrown together a week, so imagine that over several countries and you have a very poorly built product, we had very few tools, were begging and borrowing stuff all the time. And the quality was not really even checked beyond simple on and off.
It was a joke, so it does not shock me that some chargers do not work or are flaky, a flashy panel and app is not even half the job, how much has this stuff been properly tested with multiple uses, in different weathers, with disrupted connections, been abused by users.
Plenty of companies were aching to get into the market as certain people were chomping at the bit to have charging stations notably hotels and mainly services, but that means you will get some very bad people trying to make the for a quick buck, which is why you might find such flaky quality.
I'm equally sure that the chaps on the production line for Tesla superchargers are not professors paid £300k a year, and that the production line makes hundreds of them a week. Yet, they work.
There has to be more to it than perfectly typical modern production levels of pay and interest.
TheDeuce said:
I hear you on the point about solidity of remote connection, but again... The Tesla network requires that too and makes it work.
I have noticed that my cars 4/5g connection is generally far better than my phone's, I suspect because it can use a larger loop to pickup the signal and boost it than a 6mm thick smartphone can afford. This should be true of chargers too surely? Or just extend the wired net connection to the petrol station/supermarket or whatever next door that also authorises card payments via the net faultlessly day in day out.
It’s not impossible to fix but I know from experience that it’s something that is often overlooked. Tesla is a software company and has been doing chargers for a long time so they have learnt. It could also be that with Tesla doing hubs, they wire a fixed internet connection to the hub. Most others at least started with chargers being dotted around the place so the charger manufacturers probably felt (correctly) that it would be a lot easier to use a mobile connection. I have noticed that my cars 4/5g connection is generally far better than my phone's, I suspect because it can use a larger loop to pickup the signal and boost it than a 6mm thick smartphone can afford. This should be true of chargers too surely? Or just extend the wired net connection to the petrol station/supermarket or whatever next door that also authorises card payments via the net faultlessly day in day out.
I’m speculating but seems like a plausible root cause.
DMZ said:
TheDeuce said:
I hear you on the point about solidity of remote connection, but again... The Tesla network requires that too and makes it work.
I have noticed that my cars 4/5g connection is generally far better than my phone's, I suspect because it can use a larger loop to pickup the signal and boost it than a 6mm thick smartphone can afford. This should be true of chargers too surely? Or just extend the wired net connection to the petrol station/supermarket or whatever next door that also authorises card payments via the net faultlessly day in day out.
It’s not impossible to fix but I know from experience that it’s something that is often overlooked. Tesla is a software company and has been doing chargers for a long time so they have learnt. It could also be that with Tesla doing hubs, they wire a fixed internet connection to the hub. Most others at least started with chargers being dotted around the place so the charger manufacturers probably felt (correctly) that it would be a lot easier to use a mobile connection. I have noticed that my cars 4/5g connection is generally far better than my phone's, I suspect because it can use a larger loop to pickup the signal and boost it than a 6mm thick smartphone can afford. This should be true of chargers too surely? Or just extend the wired net connection to the petrol station/supermarket or whatever next door that also authorises card payments via the net faultlessly day in day out.
I’m speculating but seems like a plausible root cause.
Personally, I think the reliability of the public charging network has improved massively in the last few years.
Although my travel is limited to London and SE, so I appreciate the experiences of others in different parts of the country may be different.
Whether it's being able to use a contactless bank card or my preferred way of one charging card that works across multiple networks, I find that I never have to call up to get them to reset the unit etc like I used to when I first started using public chargers in 2018.
Throw in the fact that we have many more multi-bay ultra rapid chargers all over the place (at least near me and where I travel to/from), and relying upon public charging only in 2022 has been easier than I thought it would be.
Although my travel is limited to London and SE, so I appreciate the experiences of others in different parts of the country may be different.
Whether it's being able to use a contactless bank card or my preferred way of one charging card that works across multiple networks, I find that I never have to call up to get them to reset the unit etc like I used to when I first started using public chargers in 2018.
Throw in the fact that we have many more multi-bay ultra rapid chargers all over the place (at least near me and where I travel to/from), and relying upon public charging only in 2022 has been easier than I thought it would be.
I’m a new EV owner and this is certainly one of the most talked about reasons why people don’t buy an EV as the actual driving is great.
I don’t know what brand of EV you have?
I’ve found that KIA seem to have taken on this problem. You get a service called KIA charge. You enter your car and payment card details into this.
When you visit a charger instead of using the provider’s app you authorise charging in the KIA app. It seems to work even if the providers app doesn’t. (You also get a KIA rfid card.)
It doesn’t get round the problem of devices being faulty etc but it seems to eliminate this reason for failure to charge. I don’t know why this is better technically but it just seems to work, do other brands have a similar service?
I don’t know what brand of EV you have?
I’ve found that KIA seem to have taken on this problem. You get a service called KIA charge. You enter your car and payment card details into this.
When you visit a charger instead of using the provider’s app you authorise charging in the KIA app. It seems to work even if the providers app doesn’t. (You also get a KIA rfid card.)
It doesn’t get round the problem of devices being faulty etc but it seems to eliminate this reason for failure to charge. I don’t know why this is better technically but it just seems to work, do other brands have a similar service?
Archie2050 said:
I’m a new EV owner and this is certainly one of the most talked about reasons why people don’t buy an EV as the actual driving is great.
I don’t know what brand of EV you have?
I’ve found that KIA seem to have taken on this problem. You get a service called KIA charge. You enter your car and payment card details into this.
When you visit a charger instead of using the provider’s app you authorise charging in the KIA app. It seems to work even if the providers app doesn’t. (You also get a KIA rfid card.)
It doesn’t get round the problem of devices being faulty etc but it seems to eliminate this reason for failure to charge. I don’t know why this is better technically but it just seems to work, do other brands have a similar service?
Mini (and I guess also BMW) have the same. I don’t know what brand of EV you have?
I’ve found that KIA seem to have taken on this problem. You get a service called KIA charge. You enter your car and payment card details into this.
When you visit a charger instead of using the provider’s app you authorise charging in the KIA app. It seems to work even if the providers app doesn’t. (You also get a KIA rfid card.)
It doesn’t get round the problem of devices being faulty etc but it seems to eliminate this reason for failure to charge. I don’t know why this is better technically but it just seems to work, do other brands have a similar service?
You can either pay a monthly fee of ~3.50 € and you have a fix price on basically all networks, excluding Ionity where you have a different price for quick charge, or else you have no fee and you pay the price given by the charging networks and it gets on your account.
OutInTheShed said:
Because, thus far, very few people actually want public charging very often.
Until people routinely want it, and will happily pay the true cost for someone to make a proper business out of providing it, it will be mickey mouse.
This. With most cars now seeing c300 mile ranges, and most daily journeys well below that, how many owners actually regularly charge away from home or work? There just isn't the demand for en-route charging.Until people routinely want it, and will happily pay the true cost for someone to make a proper business out of providing it, it will be mickey mouse.
The average car journey in the UK is less than ten miles, and 12k miles per year is only 32 miles per day. To be maxing out an M3 range every (370miles) day you would be covering a whopping 135,000 miles a year!. Even if you just count week days its 96,000. Anyone covering those sorts of distances is a statistical outlier.
In the 3 1/2 years we had an i3 it was only once charged at a public charger, and then only because of a power outage at home (we took it into the village pub as they have a charger in the carpark).
DMZ said:
The really braindead stuff is when you're abroad and you rock up to a charger in France (or wherever) and it needs an app that is market locked to France and if you could actually download it, it's only available in French. I'm guessing the reverse applies in the UK in some cases.
If you have the Tesla App you can use a Tesla SuC the same as the UK, this is the same for non Teslas at the numerous open SuCs. A Charge Place RF ID card worked seamlessly for me in France in August.Ionity has a language choice for their chargers.
This is my one annoyance too. Rarely charge outside of the home but when i do it's one of 3 locations:
M6 Stoke to Wigan
Shrewsbury or mid Wales
M5 Bristol to Exeter
Except for the M5 area (which works well) they are either broken, ICE'd or already being used.
Mid and North Wales is a disaster and If it wasn't for the kindness of family (3 pin granny) i would struggle to visit North wales in my EV. There is a new charger in Bala though that is proving a very useful for a quick 10 min top up.
We recently went from St Ives to Hereford and the problems we had should never have been an issue. OH is pretty crap at reading maps so i lplan my charging stop before i leave, go to Zapmap, read recent comments, check prices and paying options, programme that in as a stop only to arrive and it be broken or won't accept contactless due to ???? So then i have to search for another charger, whilst sat idle, that i either have the app for or accepts contactless. Then find out that the road where you need to go is closed (M4 bridge) and the diversion is great but misses out the charger by miles.
My next trip is overnight in Leeds and trying to find the best combination of overnight carpark and charging - why isn't it simple!!!! Do they have idle charges? Do i need to go back to the carpark after it's charged and move it out of the bay even though there are 10s of chargers. How long will it take to recharge to 90% as the charging speed is never accurate? i need to pay in advance for parking yet i don't know how long i will need it for?
sorry ranting now - i love my EV and have a new shiny C40 coming in a month, but i wish it was easier for those times where you are supposed to be enjoying time away and you have that lingering doubt hanging around.
I don't know what the solution is, but suspect that like others have mentioned it's a business that needs to be sustainable and atm it isn't.
M6 Stoke to Wigan
Shrewsbury or mid Wales
M5 Bristol to Exeter
Except for the M5 area (which works well) they are either broken, ICE'd or already being used.
Mid and North Wales is a disaster and If it wasn't for the kindness of family (3 pin granny) i would struggle to visit North wales in my EV. There is a new charger in Bala though that is proving a very useful for a quick 10 min top up.
We recently went from St Ives to Hereford and the problems we had should never have been an issue. OH is pretty crap at reading maps so i lplan my charging stop before i leave, go to Zapmap, read recent comments, check prices and paying options, programme that in as a stop only to arrive and it be broken or won't accept contactless due to ???? So then i have to search for another charger, whilst sat idle, that i either have the app for or accepts contactless. Then find out that the road where you need to go is closed (M4 bridge) and the diversion is great but misses out the charger by miles.
My next trip is overnight in Leeds and trying to find the best combination of overnight carpark and charging - why isn't it simple!!!! Do they have idle charges? Do i need to go back to the carpark after it's charged and move it out of the bay even though there are 10s of chargers. How long will it take to recharge to 90% as the charging speed is never accurate? i need to pay in advance for parking yet i don't know how long i will need it for?
sorry ranting now - i love my EV and have a new shiny C40 coming in a month, but i wish it was easier for those times where you are supposed to be enjoying time away and you have that lingering doubt hanging around.
I don't know what the solution is, but suspect that like others have mentioned it's a business that needs to be sustainable and atm it isn't.
TheDrownedApe said:
Mid and North Wales is a disaster and If it wasn't for the kindness of family (3 pin granny) i would struggle to visit North wales in my EV. There is a new charger in Bala though that is proving a very useful for a quick 10 min top up.
The 8 x 120Kw chargers that Instavolt have at Rhug Farm are close to Bala - LL21 0EH.Personally, I'd like to see a charging hub between Preston and Carlisle. It is sparse!
Something like the Redbridge hub near Oxford on the A34, or the multiple points at Banbury - Osprey x 6, open Tesla x 12, Instavolt x 24.
TheDrownedApe said:
Mid and North Wales is a disaster and If it wasn't for the kindness of family (3 pin granny) i would struggle to visit North wales in my EV. There is a new charger in Bala though that is proving a very useful for a quick 10 min top up.
There are a bunch of recent Instavolt chargers at Rhug Estate a few miles north of there that should be better for you - half a dozen or eightI regularly go to Edinburgh from Preston and back in a day (university trip) and the network hasn’t really improved along that route in 3.5 years since the Ionity chargers went in at Gretna. There is a new Gridserve hub at Burton in Kendal services but that’s way too near home to be any use, and the promised hub at Annandale Water (a good two thirds of the way to Edinburgh and so one third of the return trip) still hasn’t happened so there is a single charger there - would never rely on a single charger. The ipace needed two hours of charging going to Edinburgh which was rubbish and has not got better so am using a phev instead - and have got my wife a c40 for local use
There looks to be a Gridserve hub going in at Gretna but from there to Edinburgh and back is a bit far for easy use for me - or certainly was in the ipace
Gassing Station | EV and Alternative Fuels | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff