Drivetrain pros/cons and future trends?
Discussion
CG2020UK said:
Surely very few are taking a more expensive and less practical Taycan Turbo S over the BMW M5. Not to mention an M5 can do the actual performance side of things with track days. ...
I'm spoilt perhaps, but I don't see the likes of M5s or RS6s being "fun" on track. Too heavy, too big and too compromised. Also waaaaaay too expensive to have proper fun in in a track environment.I tend to agree that the Taycan is nearer the RS4 than the RS6 in terms of practicality....but it does sit between them.
Reading the RS6 piece on the front page of PH today, I don't think they're that far off in terms of people potentially selecting one or the other. Both are special, very quick super saloons. Neither is a track machine. Both depreciate heavily. Both are too quick for the road if you want something you can pin the accelerator to the floor all the time. Both are utterly pointless in many respects and to the very vast majority of people. But isn't it great that they both exist
(A GTS or a Turbo stacks up against an RS6 btw IMO....no need to go to the Turbo S).
TheDeuce said:
You're comparing these cars based on track performance - most such cars never see a track. In the real world an M3 CS wouldn't shame an i4 M50 or the EV6 on any road, at least not until 120mph+, which is unrealistic.
In terms of a drivers car for the road, if you want a fast machine you're going to struggle to beat the more performance orientated EV's.
In terms of outright dynamic performance, whilst the i4 can't lap at the pace of an M3 CS, if you show it a corner in the real world it can generate almost as much mechanical grip and lateral g force, and upon exiting the corner will put its power down quicker. These aren't cars that are only fast in a straight line, don't fall for that generalisation... The first wave of performance EV's are on par with ICE. Wait for the second generation..
I’m just highlighting an M5 or RS6 certainly has nothing to worry about from EVs as performance car rivals as it stands.In terms of a drivers car for the road, if you want a fast machine you're going to struggle to beat the more performance orientated EV's.
In terms of outright dynamic performance, whilst the i4 can't lap at the pace of an M3 CS, if you show it a corner in the real world it can generate almost as much mechanical grip and lateral g force, and upon exiting the corner will put its power down quicker. These aren't cars that are only fast in a straight line, don't fall for that generalisation... The first wave of performance EV's are on par with ICE. Wait for the second generation..
Not sure why anyone would buy a 500bhp car and not take it on track but each to their own. Or pretend a car is a performance car if it can’t go on track.
I think we are in a weird stage where people think big bhp or a quick 0-60 mean a performance car. Seems we are just repeating back people use to get on like their 335d was just a diesel M3 on here.
In my experience EVs are challenging the M-lites or Audi S cars which are quick daily drivers for those who want a bit of performance but can’t justify or afford the full cost of the top range cars.
TheDeuce said:
And in EV terms, a 550hp car is going to easily out perform a similar sized 550hp ice car because it has a near flat torque curve, the power lands instantly. .
Not only that, but as bhp is measured at the flywheel, the EV will have less drivetrain losses, i.e. no gearbox. I don't know if ICE bhp includes all the parasitic losses of the engine, but stuff like oil pump, water pump, radiator fan, alternator, fuel pumps, crankcase windage etc is all going to sap the engine output.CG2020UK said:
TheDeuce said:
You're comparing these cars based on track performance - most such cars never see a track. In the real world an M3 CS wouldn't shame an i4 M50 or the EV6 on any road, at least not until 120mph+, which is unrealistic.
In terms of a drivers car for the road, if you want a fast machine you're going to struggle to beat the more performance orientated EV's.
In terms of outright dynamic performance, whilst the i4 can't lap at the pace of an M3 CS, if you show it a corner in the real world it can generate almost as much mechanical grip and lateral g force, and upon exiting the corner will put its power down quicker. These aren't cars that are only fast in a straight line, don't fall for that generalisation... The first wave of performance EV's are on par with ICE. Wait for the second generation..
I’m just highlighting an M5 or RS6 certainly has nothing to worry about from EVs as performance car rivals as it stands.In terms of a drivers car for the road, if you want a fast machine you're going to struggle to beat the more performance orientated EV's.
In terms of outright dynamic performance, whilst the i4 can't lap at the pace of an M3 CS, if you show it a corner in the real world it can generate almost as much mechanical grip and lateral g force, and upon exiting the corner will put its power down quicker. These aren't cars that are only fast in a straight line, don't fall for that generalisation... The first wave of performance EV's are on par with ICE. Wait for the second generation..
Not sure why anyone would buy a 500bhp car and not take it on track but each to their own. Or pretend a car is a performance car if it can’t go on track.
I think we are in a weird stage where people think big bhp or a quick 0-60 mean a performance car. Seems we are just repeating back people use to get on like their 335d was just a diesel M3 on here.
In my experience EVs are challenging the M-lites or Audi S cars which are quick daily drivers for those who want a bit of performance but can’t justify or afford the full cost of the top range cars.
It's entirely possible to enjoy a performance car on the road. Do you really think that a 550hp EV doesn't feel more satisfying to drive on the open roads than 300hp diesel with half the torque? Of course the difference is enjoyable and appreciable. Every time you dive into a corner and power back out, the EV is a rocket ship, it's like riding a wave of torque that simply doesn't let up.
Different to a performance ICE in nature, but they can most certainly perform to a high level and can be experienced and enjoyed on any decent fun road.
Olivera said:
TheDeuce said:
In terms of a drivers car for the road, if you want a fast machine you're going to struggle to beat the more performance orientated EV's.
An EV driver's car is an oxymoron. Once again a mag like Evo (that does significantly cover 'performance' EVs) still considers them mostly underwhelming.In fact some of my best cross country drives have been in the EV6, the sheer grip, low CofG and punch out of corners is leagues ahead of even quite performance oriented ICE vehicles.
But what do I know, I just own the cars?
(Regarding taking an M5 on track, it’s like an oil tanker compared to a proper track car, I can’t think why you would bother? You’ll just power down the straights and then annoy everyone having to tiptoe round the corners holding up all the lightweight cars.)
Edited by 740EVTORQUES on Sunday 28th April 21:46
Edited by 740EVTORQUES on Sunday 28th April 21:47
TheDeuce said:
Every time you dive into a corner and power back out, the EV is a rocket ship, it's like riding a wave of torque that simply doesn't let up.
This performance advantage is of absolutely no relevance to what most PHers would describe as being pertinent to a driver's car. You're a lover of engineering first, we get it.Edited by Olivera on Sunday 28th April 22:02
TheDeuce said:
You say you're not sure why people would buy such a car and not take it in track... But whilst you're feeling unsure, plainly the vast majority of performance cars are never taken near a track.
It's entirely possible to enjoy a performance car on the road. Do you really think that a 550hp EV doesn't feel more satisfying to drive on the open roads than 300hp diesel with half the torque? Of course the difference is enjoyable and appreciable. Every time you dive into a corner and power back out, the EV is a rocket ship, it's like riding a wave of torque that simply doesn't let up.
Different to a performance ICE in nature, but they can most certainly perform to a high level and can be experienced and enjoyed on any decent fun road.
I think the difference here is I track my cars so have a much higher expectation for what constitutes a performance car as for me it needs to be capable of going on track. It's entirely possible to enjoy a performance car on the road. Do you really think that a 550hp EV doesn't feel more satisfying to drive on the open roads than 300hp diesel with half the torque? Of course the difference is enjoyable and appreciable. Every time you dive into a corner and power back out, the EV is a rocket ship, it's like riding a wave of torque that simply doesn't let up.
Different to a performance ICE in nature, but they can most certainly perform to a high level and can be experienced and enjoyed on any decent fun road.
If you are just using them on the road then obviously loads of cars have more than ample performance which is certainly fine. I do think personally you are nowhere near the limits now of even your average family hatchback unless your a complete danger on the road never mind a 550hp one.
CG2020UK said:
TheDeuce said:
You say you're not sure why people would buy such a car and not take it in track... But whilst you're feeling unsure, plainly the vast majority of performance cars are never taken near a track.
It's entirely possible to enjoy a performance car on the road. Do you really think that a 550hp EV doesn't feel more satisfying to drive on the open roads than 300hp diesel with half the torque? Of course the difference is enjoyable and appreciable. Every time you dive into a corner and power back out, the EV is a rocket ship, it's like riding a wave of torque that simply doesn't let up.
Different to a performance ICE in nature, but they can most certainly perform to a high level and can be experienced and enjoyed on any decent fun road.
I think the difference here is I track my cars so have a much higher expectation for what constitutes a performance car as for me it needs to be capable of going on track. It's entirely possible to enjoy a performance car on the road. Do you really think that a 550hp EV doesn't feel more satisfying to drive on the open roads than 300hp diesel with half the torque? Of course the difference is enjoyable and appreciable. Every time you dive into a corner and power back out, the EV is a rocket ship, it's like riding a wave of torque that simply doesn't let up.
Different to a performance ICE in nature, but they can most certainly perform to a high level and can be experienced and enjoyed on any decent fun road.
If you are just using them on the road then obviously loads of cars have more than ample performance which is certainly fine. I do think personally you are nowhere near the limits now of even your average family hatchback unless your a complete danger on the road never mind a 550hp one.
If I accelerate hard out of a corner I can feel the car bite and grip, experience the power - none of that requires recklessness. If the car were less powerful, I could do the same but it would feel less exciting, it would be slower.
A track car isn't a road car and vice versa. An M5 isn't a track car, it's a fast saloon car.
The notion that you can't enjoy a powerful car on the road, for what it is, is just daft. Most such cars are only ever driven on the road and their owners are very satisfied. If you swapped the car for one with half the power, they would notice! You really don't need access to a circuit to appreciate a very powerful car designed primarily for road use.
If anyone stumbles on this thread and fancies a bit of further reading car and driver have the lap times recorded.
Interestingly the M5 (standard) and Taycan Turbo S have the same time in 82nd and 83rd place. M5C and M5CS are higher up.
https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a23319884/li...
Interestingly the M5 (standard) and Taycan Turbo S have the same time in 82nd and 83rd place. M5C and M5CS are higher up.
https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a23319884/li...
Olivera said:
dvs_dave said:
I suspect it’ll settle on cheap EV’s being single motor RWD as it’s cheaper to engineer and package a drive axle that doesn’t have to also steer, deal with emergency braking forces, or have to work with crumple zones and crash structures. Only reason we see cheap FWD EV’s at the moment is because to save overall development cost they’re based on existing FWD ICE platforms.
Um:Forethcoming all new MINI EV, basis for the next decade or more of the 3 and 5 door hatch line - FWD
Forethcoming all new Renault 5 (& Alpine A290) EV - FWD
All new Fiat 500 EV - FWD
Show me a FWD only EV that doesn’t also have a FWD ICE derivative.
samoht said:
The compactness and controllability of electric motors has led to a greater diversity of drivetrain layouts; ordinary family hatches come with front, rear and twin-motor 4wd propulsion, while three and four motor drivetrains are on sale, enabling tricks like torque vectoring and the videogenic 'tank turn'.
My e-C4 is FWD, and to be honest it does suffer a little from torque steer and traction control intervention. I'm always tempted to use the immediate torque, and then the front tyres often can't quite handle it.
Compared to FF ICE cars, an EV has closer to 50/50 weight balance as the battery is under the passenger compartment, so has less weight over the driven front wheels and worse natural traction (although the more neutral balance should benefit pure lateral behaviour).
Given the sophistication of modern stability control and the controllability of electric motors, and a 50/50 weight balance, I can't really see any benefits to front-drive over rear. Most FWD EVs seem to be shared platforms with ICE models, apart from perhaps the Zoe.
I had a day in a Taycan 4S, whose combination of perfect traction, perfect precision, immense acceleration and strong and easily measured out braking made it an absolute point-blank overtaking weapon, creating passing spots on the shortest straight.
However most reviews suggest that for EVs that come in both RWD and 4WD versions, the 2WD version is preferable - good enough traction, less over the top performance, and some potential adjustability.
In principle, a four motor layout seems ideal, as you can then do whatever you want with the drive in software, so total flexibility - and the potential to use torque vectoring to overcome the larger moment of inertia of battery EVs.
So I guess two questions, what experiences do people have of different layouts, and any predictions for whether EVs will end up standardising on one or two layouts in future?
Good post. I’m wondering to myself if it really matters, though. Back when ICE roamed the earth, there were indeed many a debate on fwd, rwd, and awd but this was because it could dramatically alter the handling characteristics of a car. You will notice that this thread contains nothing of the sort, just a bunch of stuff on horsepower numbers. The reality with EVs is that it’s largely just about that and the number of motors dictate how hard you get pinned into the seat. I have certainly never driven an EV that you could call playful, irrespective of where the motors are located. I have on the other hand driven plenty of ICE where engine location and driven wheels matter hugely to the enjoyment of the car, where horsepower is just one element of the experience and mostly more about mechanical engagement as opposed to just G force. RWD is usually my preference there. My e-C4 is FWD, and to be honest it does suffer a little from torque steer and traction control intervention. I'm always tempted to use the immediate torque, and then the front tyres often can't quite handle it.
Compared to FF ICE cars, an EV has closer to 50/50 weight balance as the battery is under the passenger compartment, so has less weight over the driven front wheels and worse natural traction (although the more neutral balance should benefit pure lateral behaviour).
Given the sophistication of modern stability control and the controllability of electric motors, and a 50/50 weight balance, I can't really see any benefits to front-drive over rear. Most FWD EVs seem to be shared platforms with ICE models, apart from perhaps the Zoe.
I had a day in a Taycan 4S, whose combination of perfect traction, perfect precision, immense acceleration and strong and easily measured out braking made it an absolute point-blank overtaking weapon, creating passing spots on the shortest straight.
However most reviews suggest that for EVs that come in both RWD and 4WD versions, the 2WD version is preferable - good enough traction, less over the top performance, and some potential adjustability.
In principle, a four motor layout seems ideal, as you can then do whatever you want with the drive in software, so total flexibility - and the potential to use torque vectoring to overcome the larger moment of inertia of battery EVs.
So I guess two questions, what experiences do people have of different layouts, and any predictions for whether EVs will end up standardising on one or two layouts in future?
I think what would be more interesting for me is if there will be more playful EVs. Otherwise as it stands, I think AWD is just fine and likely to continue to be the common format seeing as you get more power and more grip.
DMZ said:
Good post. I’m wondering to myself if it really matters, though. Back when ICE roamed the earth, there were indeed many a debate on fwd, rwd, and awd but this was because it could dramatically alter the handling characteristics of a car. You will notice that this thread contains nothing of the sort, just a bunch of stuff on horsepower numbers. The reality with EVs is that it’s largely just about that and the number of motors dictate how hard you get pinned into the seat. I have certainly never driven an EV that you could call playful, irrespective of where the motors are located. I have on the other hand driven plenty of ICE where engine location and driven wheels matter hugely to the enjoyment of the car, where horsepower is just one element of the experience and mostly more about mechanical engagement as opposed to just G force. RWD is usually my preference there.
I think what would be more interesting for me is if there will be more playful EVs. Otherwise as it stands, I think AWD is just fine and likely to continue to be the common format seeing as you get more power and more grip.
I don't notice that this thread contains nothing about mechanical grip or handling, because several of my posts do.I think what would be more interesting for me is if there will be more playful EVs. Otherwise as it stands, I think AWD is just fine and likely to continue to be the common format seeing as you get more power and more grip.
In regards to which wheels are driven making a difference, of course it does.
For more playful EV's, just be patient.
In the EV6 you can choose between front wheel drive or four wheel drive with a rear bias.
You can also put the dampers into a stiff mode that makes the front bob like an old 911.
Finally you can employ a special drift mode to allow you to hold slides better.
It shows you the torque split and active brake bias on a graphic display as you go.
How is this not ‘playful’
It feels pretty fun to me!
You can also put the dampers into a stiff mode that makes the front bob like an old 911.
Finally you can employ a special drift mode to allow you to hold slides better.
It shows you the torque split and active brake bias on a graphic display as you go.
How is this not ‘playful’
It feels pretty fun to me!
DMZ said:
Good post. I’m wondering to myself if it really matters, though. Back when ICE roamed the earth, there were indeed many a debate on fwd, rwd, and awd but this was because it could dramatically alter the handling characteristics of a car. You will notice that this thread contains nothing of the sort, just a bunch of stuff on horsepower numbers. The reality with EVs is that it’s largely just about that and the number of motors dictate how hard you get pinned into the seat. I have certainly never driven an EV that you could call playful, irrespective of where the motors are located. I have on the other hand driven plenty of ICE where engine location and driven wheels matter hugely to the enjoyment of the car, where horsepower is just one element of the experience and mostly more about mechanical engagement as opposed to just G force. RWD is usually my preference there.
I think what would be more interesting for me is if there will be more playful EVs. Otherwise as it stands, I think AWD is just fine and likely to continue to be the common format seeing as you get more power and more grip.
Front wheel drive cars did not really exist before 1960. It was the Mini and subsequent larger models that brought the advantages of FWD to the fore and it had nothing to do with handling and totally about space and economics. I think what would be more interesting for me is if there will be more playful EVs. Otherwise as it stands, I think AWD is just fine and likely to continue to be the common format seeing as you get more power and more grip.
The handling of front wheel drive cars were completely different to the real wheel drive cars at the time. It is much more recently that those differences have been reduced. I trust people understand the dynamic changes between acceleration and braking and the different effects in the two forms of drive,
Edited by Nomme de Plum on Monday 29th April 08:21
dvs_dave said:
Great job illustrating by point perfectly by reeling off a list of upcoming EV’s based on FWD ICE platforms, not bespoke EV only platforms.
Show me a FWD only EV that doesn’t also have a FWD ICE derivative.
BYD Atto.Show me a FWD only EV that doesn’t also have a FWD ICE derivative.
The VW ID.4 is front wheel drive, but it's based on the MEB platform. But then again the Cupra Born, which is rear-motor and rear wheel drive, is also on the MEB platform.....
TheDeuce said:
I don't notice that this thread contains nothing about mechanical grip or handling, because several of my posts do.
In regards to which wheels are driven making a difference, of course it does.
For more playful EV's, just be patient.
Tbh I’m cool with it. Not everything needs to be playful. Just a bunch of bhp and grip has its place in this world as well and EVs do it well. In regards to which wheels are driven making a difference, of course it does.
For more playful EV's, just be patient.
DMZ said:
TheDeuce said:
I don't notice that this thread contains nothing about mechanical grip or handling, because several of my posts do.
In regards to which wheels are driven making a difference, of course it does.
For more playful EV's, just be patient.
Tbh I’m cool with it. Not everything needs to be playful. Just a bunch of bhp and grip has its place in this world as well and EVs do it well. In regards to which wheels are driven making a difference, of course it does.
For more playful EV's, just be patient.
Actually for those that want a car that's surprisingly chuckable and playful at the rear, the rwd i4 is very easy to enjoy when booting out of a roundabout... Not as chuckable as an mx5 etc, but probably as much steer from the rear as 90% of car fans would actually want in the real world.
The moment batteries become lighter, we can all have lightweight and still remarkably powerful EV's.
DMZ said:
TheDeuce said:
I don't notice that this thread contains nothing about mechanical grip or handling, because several of my posts do.
In regards to which wheels are driven making a difference, of course it does.
For more playful EV's, just be patient.
Tbh I’m cool with it. Not everything needs to be playful. Just a bunch of bhp and grip has its place in this world as well and EVs do it well. In regards to which wheels are driven making a difference, of course it does.
For more playful EV's, just be patient.
If I want playful I'll look for something lighter and more suited to the job, not a 2+ ton 5m long saloon or SUV.
740EVTORQUES said:
In the EV6 you can choose between front wheel drive or four wheel drive with a rear bias.
You can also put the dampers into a stiff mode that makes the front bob like an old 911.
Finally you can employ a special drift mode to allow you to hold slides better.
It shows you the torque split and active brake bias on a graphic display as you go.
How is this not ‘playful’
It feels pretty fun to me!
Given the vast size and weight of EVs like the EV6, it's highly, highly unlikely that drivers will be getting it significantly sideways (drifting) on the public road. It's simply too big and too heavy to get out of shape on our small UK roads, otherwise it ain't coming back and will end in tears.You can also put the dampers into a stiff mode that makes the front bob like an old 911.
Finally you can employ a special drift mode to allow you to hold slides better.
It shows you the torque split and active brake bias on a graphic display as you go.
How is this not ‘playful’
It feels pretty fun to me!
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