Are EV cars anti consumerism?
Discussion
Evercross said:
Only 17% of end-of-life electronic devices are properly recycled.
I would guess a chunk of that is due to people throwing e-waste in normal bins, because that's a lot easier than finding somewhere that will actually take it. That's going to be a bit harder to do with a car 
End of life cars will be sold to a scrappy, and they're reasonably well regulated so hopefully less cowboys out there than companies that claim to responsibly dispose of your old microwave. RizzoTheRat said:
Evercross said:
Only 17% of end-of-life electronic devices are properly recycled.
I would guess a chunk of that is due to people throwing e-waste in normal bins, because that's a lot easier than finding somewhere that will actually take it. That's going to be a bit harder to do with a car End of life cars will be sold to a scrappy, and they're reasonably well regulated so hopefully less cowboys out there than companies that claim to responsibly dispose of your old microwave. Evercross said:
Recycling an ICE car is a lot easier/cheaper than recycling an EV, and a discarded ICE car is far less environmentally damaging than a discarded EV.
The recycling and/or redeployment of EV batteries is a well documented topic, including multiple pilot plants already demonstrating near 100% recovery of the key minerals without any loss of integrity and using low energy recovery methods. The investment cost for these plants vs their capacity indicate that the concept is commercially viable and scalable. The idea that people will be throwing away perfectly good lithium, nickel, manganese, cobalt, etc. is a crock.Not least because it is or will very shortly be mandated (depending on jurisdiction) what degree of recycling is required. The only material in an EV battery that remains in terms of demonstrating a viable upcycling pathway is good old carbon, in the form of graphite. It can be recovered but not necessarily in the form required to go straight back into new batteries.
Alternative uses for this graphite are being explored and if you want to delve further into it, google is your friend.
Here is an example of manufacturer recycling:
https://group.mercedes-benz.com/company/news/recyc...
mickythefish said:
I actually love EVs, but would rather see lighter ones covered in solar panels that need minimal electricity off the grid to run.
A big car is what, 5m x 2m? Bright sunlight is about 1000W/M^2, but current panels are around 20% efficient, so potentially a car sized solar panel can generate about 2kW in bright sunlight. Modern EV's do about 3.5 miles per kWh, call it 4 for a lightweight one with minimal batteries as it's relying on the solar power. I make that about 8 miles range per hour of full sunshine. Actually better than thought. Solar panel tech is like 50 year old, I'm sure 1000 billions investment could resolve a lot of efficiency issues, combine with different manufacturing techniques like using very light weight composite materials, could make cars that use fewer energy than current cars. But no one makes profit off that really.
schedoni said:
Aptera have your back!
I have one of those on order though I'm not holding my breathe as it will probably need to be re-engineered for Europe to fit in with our passenger car max width limits which it currently exceeds.
In any case with the new Renault Twizzy replacement offering nearly 10 miles/ kWh I'm not sure that you actually need solar panels, at least in the UK where it's not that sunny.
I think we get about 1800 hrs per annum where I live. Solar panels on cars would only really cover parasitic loads when parked. Far better to have a solar array and battery storage at home.I have one of those on order though I'm not holding my breathe as it will probably need to be re-engineered for Europe to fit in with our passenger car max width limits which it currently exceeds.
In any case with the new Renault Twizzy replacement offering nearly 10 miles/ kWh I'm not sure that you actually need solar panels, at least in the UK where it's not that sunny.
This seemed like it could be relevant:
https://evclinic.eu/2024/11/27/making-kangoo-ze-im... (warning, some brand bashing included!)
We're only entering the era of modern(ish) EVs start to need attention and the third-party service ecosystem becomes viable. In this case, one-fifth of the price of a new (albeit better) EV van, 100kg lighter than when new, better chemistry, roughly the same range as when new (apparently, the promised 160km was wildly optimistic).
In ten years, I expect to pay a few thousand € to get a battery with a slightly larger capacity and end up with a car about 200kg lighter than when new. The 2025 LFP modules should already allow for this (technically), but in 10 years, we might have solid-state or lithium-sulfur batteries offering even better combinations of weight/range/price/charging speed.
As for recycling - even if we're working hard to increase the CO2 concentration towards 500ppm in a few decades, capturing and recycling CO2 is still considerably harder than capturing and recycling battery material (unless we suddenly start to see discarded EVs in the bins...).
https://evclinic.eu/2024/11/27/making-kangoo-ze-im... (warning, some brand bashing included!)
We're only entering the era of modern(ish) EVs start to need attention and the third-party service ecosystem becomes viable. In this case, one-fifth of the price of a new (albeit better) EV van, 100kg lighter than when new, better chemistry, roughly the same range as when new (apparently, the promised 160km was wildly optimistic).
In ten years, I expect to pay a few thousand € to get a battery with a slightly larger capacity and end up with a car about 200kg lighter than when new. The 2025 LFP modules should already allow for this (technically), but in 10 years, we might have solid-state or lithium-sulfur batteries offering even better combinations of weight/range/price/charging speed.
As for recycling - even if we're working hard to increase the CO2 concentration towards 500ppm in a few decades, capturing and recycling CO2 is still considerably harder than capturing and recycling battery material (unless we suddenly start to see discarded EVs in the bins...).
PetrolHeadInRecovery said:
As for recycling - even if we're working hard to increase the CO2 concentration towards 500ppm in a few decades, capturing and recycling CO2 is still considerably harder than capturing and recycling battery material (unless we suddenly start to see discarded EVs in the bins...).
PS. We're emitting about 35,000,000,000 tonnes of excess CO2 per year. The low estimate of deep-sea storage cost is €6/tonne, and they're hoping to get direct air capture costs down to 150€/tonne (right now, it's about 1000€/tonne). Assuming the solutions would scale and the capture/storage price would drop to 156€/tonne, we'd need to spend almost 5.5 trillion € per year on capture and storage in order to not make the climate breakdown worse. Transport emissions are about 20% of the total, so we'd need to add almost 750€/year to the road tax for every one of the ~1.5b cars on the planet. We could try to tax HGVs at a higher rate, but the best-case scenario is that this would lead to massive inflation or, more likely, social unrest.
Realistically, payments would need to be adjusted based on GDP, so in the rich north, we'd look more likely at something like 1500€/year extra per car. This might be just about financially feasible (although politically impossible). Using today's capture/storage prices, this would be about ~10,000€ per car per year.
I'm also wondering if pushing 23 cubic kilometres (or 4.6, if we consider only the transport part) of solid CO2 every year into the bottom of the sea could have some unintended ecological impacts. It is an "apples and oranges" comparison, but the Krakatoa eruption in 1883 blasted off (only) 25 cubic km of rock...
TL;DR: avoiding (most of the) emissions by EVs makes quite a bit of sense.
raspy said:
How many fleet/business vehicles are bought and kept for 15 years? Company cars have always been kept for 2-4 years and then disposed of.
I think you misspelled "kept for 2-4 years, sold cheap on the second hand market and kept for about 8 years and then shipped to Africa or Asia to be driven for another 5-10 years".There are plusses and minuses to the entire EV market in the western world. I think right now there is a tony consumer market of people buying them to try them. The vast majority of them are being used as part of a lease scheme as it benefits you financially, I would imagine well over three quarters of people using them right now would not be were this not the case.
The good aspect of that is that it has pushed the infrastructure though in a quicker way, but it is still hugely lacking especially rurally.
The tech is advancing very quickly, the cars look OK, and apparently they are nice to drive offering benefits.
The downsides are that nobody buying outright really wants to buy one, compared to other options, the second hand market is fraught, depreciation is horrendous, and that market has not reached a point yet where poorer people can even remotely consider buying one for all sorts of reasons.
I think eventually the consumer aspect will come in once the Chinese have pretty much taken over or part badged just about every car brand worldwide as that I believe is what will happen, even giants like GM, Ford, Toyota will not be able to compete with the Chinese cheapness and advances they made 20 years ago when they realised they could not make normal cars and dived well full beans into EV's.
Believe me they will utterly dominate the worldwide car market within 40 years, every car you buy will be mainly manufactured in China, part badged or their own, so we will be Chinese car consumers just as we are tech and lots of other things.
The good aspect of that is that it has pushed the infrastructure though in a quicker way, but it is still hugely lacking especially rurally.
The tech is advancing very quickly, the cars look OK, and apparently they are nice to drive offering benefits.
The downsides are that nobody buying outright really wants to buy one, compared to other options, the second hand market is fraught, depreciation is horrendous, and that market has not reached a point yet where poorer people can even remotely consider buying one for all sorts of reasons.
I think eventually the consumer aspect will come in once the Chinese have pretty much taken over or part badged just about every car brand worldwide as that I believe is what will happen, even giants like GM, Ford, Toyota will not be able to compete with the Chinese cheapness and advances they made 20 years ago when they realised they could not make normal cars and dived well full beans into EV's.
Believe me they will utterly dominate the worldwide car market within 40 years, every car you buy will be mainly manufactured in China, part badged or their own, so we will be Chinese car consumers just as we are tech and lots of other things.
Evercross said:
Recycling an ICE car is a lot easier/cheaper than recycling an EV, and a discarded ICE car is far less environmentally damaging than a discarded EV.
I suspect that is only the case because we have had 100+ years of practice at it, and have therefore built up an entire system of methods and facilities specifically designed to deal with it.Edited by Evercross on Friday 29th November 09:00
I don't see that there is anything inherently different about EVs that would make them harder or more expensive to recycle in principle. It's just that currently there aren't the numbers of them reaching end of life to have created the infrastructure.
Evercross said:
Only 17% of end-of-life electronic devices are properly recycled. E-waste is a genuine environmental catastrophe, unlike the smoke and mirrors that is climate change which IMO is intentionally pushed by the richest companies on the planet (who all happen to be tech or tech related companies) as a nebulous distraction guilt-trip on consumers to hide who are the genuine polluters.
End-of-life EVs are going to make the current e-waste situation look like a drop in the ocean, but again no-one wants to talk about it because it directly threatens a business model.
Recycling an ICE car is a lot easier/cheaper than recycling an EV, and a discarded ICE car is far less environmentally damaging than a discarded EV.
There is a lot more to recycle in an end of life battery, than there is in the 17,000 litres of fuel after it’s burnt (avg lifetime ICE fuel use), at 25% efficency End-of-life EVs are going to make the current e-waste situation look like a drop in the ocean, but again no-one wants to talk about it because it directly threatens a business model.
Recycling an ICE car is a lot easier/cheaper than recycling an EV, and a discarded ICE car is far less environmentally damaging than a discarded EV.
Edited by Evercross on Friday 29th November 09:00
Driven a few EV’s and they are all different in the same way all ICE cars are different.
I didn’t like the seats, dash and the on off throttle response of the Tesla 3/Y
I didn’t like the way the Mustang Mach e drove or the seats
I didn’t like the fact there’s nowhere for my left knee or feet in the Polestar 2
I didn’t like the ride the Volvo C40
I didn’t like the interior of the KIA ev6
Purchased the Polestar 2 as it had the best ride, throttle response, dash and control weights out of the selection above. They all drove differently and had different interiors in the same way as BMW, Mercedes, Audi, VW, KIA and Volvo do in the ICE world.
In the pursuit of efficiency they might start to converge in terms of styling with Tesla probably leading the pack at the moment.
For batteries there are a few 400k mile Tesla model S wandering around still on original motors and batteries and as the battery tech improves it will get better. A new industry to repair broken battery packs and cells is starting to form.
The only things I’ve replaced in my last couple of ICE cars are brakes, coil packs and aux belts. EV’s don’t really use the brakes, don’t have coil packs and I’m not sure about aux belts so it’s good news as far as maintenance goes. Merc B service is £1500 for engine, gearbox, diff oil and associated filters none of which the EV has so it will be interesting to see what a service involves.
I didn’t like the seats, dash and the on off throttle response of the Tesla 3/Y
I didn’t like the way the Mustang Mach e drove or the seats
I didn’t like the fact there’s nowhere for my left knee or feet in the Polestar 2
I didn’t like the ride the Volvo C40
I didn’t like the interior of the KIA ev6
Purchased the Polestar 2 as it had the best ride, throttle response, dash and control weights out of the selection above. They all drove differently and had different interiors in the same way as BMW, Mercedes, Audi, VW, KIA and Volvo do in the ICE world.
In the pursuit of efficiency they might start to converge in terms of styling with Tesla probably leading the pack at the moment.
For batteries there are a few 400k mile Tesla model S wandering around still on original motors and batteries and as the battery tech improves it will get better. A new industry to repair broken battery packs and cells is starting to form.
The only things I’ve replaced in my last couple of ICE cars are brakes, coil packs and aux belts. EV’s don’t really use the brakes, don’t have coil packs and I’m not sure about aux belts so it’s good news as far as maintenance goes. Merc B service is £1500 for engine, gearbox, diff oil and associated filters none of which the EV has so it will be interesting to see what a service involves.
Evercross said:
Only 17% of end-of-life electronic devices are properly recycled.
I wish people would stop using Google AI as their reference.https://unitar.org/about/news-stories/press/global...
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