Are EV cars anti consumerism?

[Caddyshack]

RizzoTheRat said:

mickythefish said:

I actually love EVs, but would rather see lighter ones covered in solar panels that need minimal electricity off the grid to run.

A big car is what, 5m x 2m? Bright sunlight is about 1000W/M^2, but current panels are around 20% efficient, so potentially a car sized solar panel can generate about 2kW in bright sunlight. Modern EV's do about 3.5 miles per kWh, call it 4 for a lightweight one with minimal batteries as it's relying on the solar power. I make that about 8 miles range per hour of full sunshine. Actually better than thought.

In reality it would be worse: 1) the weight of all those panels
2) a panel will only charge a battery when the voltage is higher than the battery or cells. On my leisure batts I have to have 34v on the panel to power a controller that can charge the batteries at 24v to 27v. I think the high voltage of a car would mean something trying to manage individual cells or banks so there would be more losses than a house setup. Cars get very dirty too so they would need constant cleaning and stones would break them

[tr3a]

mickythefish said:

only issues seem to be battery

Not even that. Modern EV batteries, on the whole, last a loooong time.

[Chamon_Lee]

It’s the complete opposite

[NDA]

tr3a said:

Not even that. Modern EV batteries, on the whole, last a loooong time.

The Auto Trader long term Tesla is at over 430,000 miles. Not bad. There are higher mileage ones out there.

With some reasonably complex thermal technology, EV batteries should last around 1,500 cycles - roughly the same cycle count as a laptop. 1,500 cycles would equate to 450,000 miles.

[annodomini2]

mickythefish said:

Interesting debate, it was actually driven from a question someone raised about jaguar.

I actually love EVs, but would rather see lighter ones covered in solar panels that need minimal electricity off the grid to run.

https://aptera.us/

Supposedly fairly close to production

[ashenfie]

NDA said:

tr3a said:

Not even that. Modern EV batteries, on the whole, last a loooong time.

The Auto Trader long term Tesla is at over 430,000 miles. Not bad. There are higher mileage ones out there.

With some reasonably complex thermal technology, EV batteries should last around 1,500 cycles - roughly the same cycle count as a laptop. 1,500 cycles would equate to 450,000 miles.

I think there is to much focus on battery and motors and not enough on the things that actually go wrong. 40 years of motoring and engine issues have been few and far between others issues like suspension and normal service items like brakes and tyres. You can search auto trade and find merc diesels with 400k on the clock and a friend has one with 350k and going strong. Myself I do 8k a year down from 50kwith home working. Going up and down the m1 for years the engine does no real work but the brakes and tyres take a beating.
I see from what said that EV and ICE car a about the same for issues and it’s the same game finding a make that does not have issues or at least has dealers and independents willing to fix them.

[Zero Fuchs]

ashenfie said:

NDA said:

tr3a said:

Not even that. Modern EV batteries, on the whole, last a loooong time.

The Auto Trader long term Tesla is at over 430,000 miles. Not bad. There are higher mileage ones out there.

With some reasonably complex thermal technology, EV batteries should last around 1,500 cycles - roughly the same cycle count as a laptop. 1,500 cycles would equate to 450,000 miles.

I think there is to much focus on battery and motors and not enough on the things that actually go wrong. 40 years of motoring and engine issues have been few and far between others issues like suspension and normal service items like brakes and tyres. You can search auto trade and find merc diesels with 400k on the clock and a friend has one with 350k and going strong. Myself I do 8k a year down from 50kwith home working. Going up and down the m1 for years the engine does no real work but the brakes and tyres take a beating.
I see from what said that EV and ICE car a about the same for issues and it’s the same game finding a make that does not have issues or at least has dealers and independents willing to fix them.

Jokes innit. Most people made a huge thing about battery longevity and now too much focus is being placed on batteries when it's found that all those issues were unfounded.

ICE cars with 400k miles are a rarity. Infinitesimally small numbers given the amount of ICE cars on the road. 400k EVs are likely to be the new normal, provided people are prepared to change their attitudes to cars and their lifespan.

Brakes are less of an issue because they're not used as much. Suspension yes, wheel bearings etc etc. All pretty straightforward stuff in principle.

[mikeiow]

mickythefish said:

If you get an EV car, not many moving parts, only issues seem to be battery. Electricity used to power them is becoming more substance.

So why would there be a need to keep replacing them?

Also won't all cars end up just being the same?

Electric motor and battery just different user interfaces and tech? Is the car industry going to change forever?

There is some truth in there.
Estimates suggest batteries are actually degrading no more than 2% per year for most, giving ‘the engine’ probably more usable years than an ICE. I doubt the battery life will be a major issue.

Brake discs barely get touched - we are over 52k miles into our Kona and the originals have plenty of life.

Obviously there are other consumables - wipers, etc - that mare the same, and perhaps suspension could have harder life with the extra weight.

I have a California pal with his original Leaf, around 14 years old. Originally had a range around 70-100 miles. Now he just uses it for local trips to town - I think he said the range was about 30-40 miles now.

The trickier part is perhaps the electronics. How many folk are still running Win7 on computers
That said, there shouldn’t be much reason to update/fix those things once settled down for a new model….but landfill is full of broken technology, so todays EVs are unlikely to last forever…

[mickythefish]

This guy on tiktok did a good piece about hybrid cars being pushed onto people, that use more fuel than the diesels the business users would have used before

How repair costs are so expensive it is making cars disposable.

It is crazy considering the amount of resources cars consume in making them.

[Caddyshack]

NDA said:

tr3a said:

Not even that. Modern EV batteries, on the whole, last a loooong time.

The Auto Trader long term Tesla is at over 430,000 miles. Not bad. There are higher mileage ones out there.

With some reasonably complex thermal technology, EV batteries should last around 1,500 cycles - roughly the same cycle count as a laptop. 1,500 cycles would equate to 450,000 miles.

We also need to know the time variable. A battery that is used daily might be much fitter than a battery that have been used twice a month and is 15 yrs old. I don’t think batteries would fair well if any owner has poorly cared for them by accident ie being dormant for 2 years and low charge etc.

[Zero Fuchs]

schedoni said:

Indeed. It's very likely that the rest of the car will be the limiting factor. What needs to happened is for car design to reflect this and make it easier to swap body panels, replace seat coverings etc to make it easier to maintain and refresh the rest of the car.

The new Renault micro car for example has seat covers that are removable for washing/ replacement which makes car sharing much more attractive. Smart cars have for a long time had cheap easily replaced plastic body panels making repairs much more feasible (ask my daughter why I know this...) even when the car is not worth as much. All these things make the life of the car longer, important when the drivetrain is going to remain good for far longer than most ICE cars.

It should also reduce insurance costs, a win-win.

If legacy manufacturers want to survive, rather than bleating on about wanting to keep selling ICE cars, these are the ways they should be innovating.

Totally agree. Manufacturers really need to start designing for longevity and accepting lower sales figures in the interim. Unfortunately they've got used to a constant churn and high demand. This needs to stop ideally.

[Terminator X]

Zero Fuchs said:

Jokes innit. Most people made a huge thing about battery longevity and now too much focus is being placed on batteries when it's found that all those issues were unfounded.

ICE cars with 400k miles are a rarity. Infinitesimally small numbers given the amount of ICE cars on the road. 400k EVs are likely to be the new normal, provided people are prepared to change their attitudes to cars and their lifespan.

Brakes are less of an issue because they're not used as much. Suspension yes, wheel bearings etc etc. All pretty straightforward stuff in principle.

You have some fantastic long term predictions. Are you son of Mystic Meg?

TX.

[Zero Fuchs]

Terminator X said:

You have some fantastic long term predictions. Are you son of Mystic Meg?

TX.

Yes. PM me your bank details and I'll tell you more.

[Evanivitch]

ashenfie said:

I think there is to much focus on battery and motors and not enough on the things that actually go wrong. 40 years of motoring and engine issues have been few and far between others issues like suspension and normal service items like brakes and tyres.

We still have timing belts that need replacing, oil, filters, plugs. I haven't seen most manufacturers making big changes in service intervals in the last 30 years...

ashenfie said:

Myself I do 8k a year down from 50kwith home working. Going up and down the m1 for years the engine does no real work but the brakes and tyres take a beating.

Don't really understand that. Very little braking and lateral loads on a motorway. Tyres and brakes with minimal wear.


I see from what said that EV and ICE car a about the same for issues and it’s the same game finding a make that does not have issues or at least has dealers and independents willing to fix them.

[ashenfie]

Motorway travelling should be smooth, but travel at busy times there are to many aholes. Traveling at 70ish in the correct lane and you soon have issues in getting past a trucks. Move across early and you have the afore mentioned driving up your inside and into your 2 second gap. which is a issue if your already braking due to traffic. At 50k a year travelling between northampton and the manchester area I saw around 1 accident a week and had a unmarked police car drive into the back of me (no blue lights going)!! The abs sends your tyres cog shaped and the brakes and disc's wear quite quickly on BMWs. Glad those day are gone as stress levels are so much better.

[Snow and Rocks]

ashenfie said:

Motorway travelling should be smooth, but travel at busy times there are to many aholes. Traveling at 70ish in the correct lane and you soon have issues in getting past a trucks. Move across early and you have the afore mentioned driving up your inside and into your 2 second gap. which is a issue if your already braking due to traffic. At 50k a year travelling between northampton and the manchester area I saw around 1 accident a week and had a unmarked police car drive into the back of me (no blue lights going)!! The abs sends your tyres cog shaped and the brakes and disc's wear quite quickly on BMWs. Glad those day are gone as stress levels are so much better.

Without being deliberately argumentative that sounds like a problem with your driving and anticipation. I've put 125k miles in 4 years on a Hilux all over the UK and occasionally over into Europe and have never activated the ABS on anything but snow or ice. It's had one set of front brake pads and one set of tyres and that's it. Generally not hanging around either with cruise usually set at GPS 77 where possible.

[Evanivitch]

ashenfie said:

Motorway travelling should be smooth, but travel at busy times there are to many aholes. Traveling at 70ish in the correct lane and you soon have issues in getting past a trucks. Move across early and you have the afore mentioned driving up your inside and into your 2 second gap. which is a issue if your already braking due to traffic. At 50k a year travelling between northampton and the manchester area I saw around 1 accident a week and had a unmarked police car drive into the back of me (no blue lights going)!! The abs sends your tyres cog shaped and the brakes and disc's wear quite quickly on BMWs. Glad those day are gone as stress levels are so much better.

I pretty much do the majority of my 15-20k miles per year for the last 12 years on the M4. I've never triggered ABS. I've witnessed one accident. My rear tyres did 60,000 miles on my Ampera.

[Caddyshack]

I think that batteries will not fail in a linear fashion such as 2% per x years. They will possibly drop like a stone at some point. I am trying to check but my EV battery has had a sudden drop. It is now 12 yrs old and was showing very little signs. It may just be a cell causing issues but the drop is quite dramatic.

[gmaz]

I think the used EV market will become similar to the 2nd hand iPhone market. You can see that iPhones from 3-4 generations ago still command decent prices on websites e.g. a basic iPhone 12 released in 2020 is still worth £256 ( https://reboxed.co/products/apple-iphone-12-64gb?v... ) because it is very usable even with ~85% battery.

An ICE car will start having big bills after a few years. New EGR cooler, a new DPF, a new high pressure fuel pump, cam belt service can cost thousands, but an EV is more of a gradual degradation while still remaining usable.

[James6112]

I purchased a 6 month old Skoda Superb in 2014 for £15k
Kept it until 10 years old, few issues but showing its age.
Sold it for £3k this year, so retained 20%

This year purchased a 6 month old Skoda Enyaq, £30k, lots of extras, leather, sun roof, etc. A great car.

If I keep it 10 years & it’s then worth 20%, i’ll be happy with that.