How will the end of ICE availability affect buyer attitudes?
Discussion
Turtle Shed said:
SWoll said:
Ankh87 said:
My point is that when comparing, it's comparing apples and oranges. Yes they have things similar but the majority of people wouldn't notice if they were driving an EV or ICE (automatic). Only time they would is when they need to add fuel or electricity.
Don't agree without at all. Yet to speak to an EV driver who doesn't comment on how much smoother, quieter, more responsive and easy to drive they are than any ICE car they've had previously.- SatNav is fairly crap, no DAB radio, no adaptive cruise, no Carplay or Android auto.
Ankh87 said:
I mean people coming from newish auto ICE cars to EVs won't really notice. Most people auto ICE are fairly quiet if you aren't thrashing them. They are fairly smooth to drive and the modern cars 2021+ I've driven, you can't tell,
You realise you are trying to convince a forum of people who actually drive electric cars something they know to be not factually correct right?JD said:
Ankh87 said:
I mean people coming from newish auto ICE cars to EVs won't really notice. Most people auto ICE are fairly quiet if you aren't thrashing them. They are fairly smooth to drive and the modern cars 2021+ I've driven, you can't tell,
You realise you are trying to convince a forum of people who actually drive electric cars something they know to be not factually correct right?
I specifically ditched my 70 plate E350d because i preferred the drivetrain in even a lowly ID3 due to getting rid of the ICE and gearbox combo that was just so irritatingly un responsive / made a song and dance about things. I'd gotten so used to my wife's e-Golf and then Born just being more effective as a powertrain that I paid to early terminate the Mercedes. So in my sample of one, I'd fully disagree with not being able to tell the difference.
JD said:
You realise you are trying to convince a forum of people who actually drive electric cars something they know to be not factually correct right?
I'm not convincing anyone about it on here. We all like cars. My partner on the other hand, has zero interest in cars. She's had the same car for going on 16 years now. She bought it new because it was cheap and got her from A to B. How many people on here can say they've only ever owned 1 car and was from new for more than 10 years? So to her any new car with an automatic gearbox is all the same. They are all smooth and easy to drive.
Zigster said:
BERNEV said:
People say we don’t always need cars - witness the mention of fifteen minute cities above. All great if you live in one. I live in the Costa del Sol. I don’t use the car at all because I don’t need to day to day. But I do if we need to go anywhere out of the bounds of the immediate Malaga-Marbella strip. Same when I live in the rural West Country. There is no transport and my nearest supermarket is 7 miles away. City dwellers tend to forget that a large percentage of populations remain rural and the utopia of going back to how we were is a feasibility. It isn’t.
A large percentage? A quick google suggests that only about 15% of the population live rurally. The vast majority live in urban areas.BERNEV said:
Zigster said:
BERNEV said:
People say we don’t always need cars - witness the mention of fifteen minute cities above. All great if you live in one. I live in the Costa del Sol. I don’t use the car at all because I don’t need to day to day. But I do if we need to go anywhere out of the bounds of the immediate Malaga-Marbella strip. Same when I live in the rural West Country. There is no transport and my nearest supermarket is 7 miles away. City dwellers tend to forget that a large percentage of populations remain rural and the utopia of going back to how we were is a feasibility. It isn’t.
A large percentage? A quick google suggests that only about 15% of the population live rurally. The vast majority live in urban areas.
In the mean time, here’s the view.
JD said:
Ankh87 said:
I mean people coming from newish auto ICE cars to EVs won't really notice. Most people auto ICE are fairly quiet if you aren't thrashing them. They are fairly smooth to drive and the modern cars 2021+ I've driven, you can't tell,
You realise you are trying to convince a forum of people who actually drive electric cars something they know to be not factually correct right?Asked her how she liked it and she said that she liked carplay. Asked her what it was like to drive and she said much the same has her last car.
When it’s white goods motoring most people just don’t care. We’ve got both, can’t say I’m fussed either way. Real benefit of EV is that it warms up / defrosts a bit faster in winder.
People seem obsessed with picking a side, but ICE and EV are mostly the same - cars that get us from A to B.
Filling up with fuel really ain’t a big deal and neither is plugging it in to charge (assuming you can charge at home - otherwise I can see how travelling to charge would be annoying)
survivalist said:
JD said:
Ankh87 said:
I mean people coming from newish auto ICE cars to EVs won't really notice. Most people auto ICE are fairly quiet if you aren't thrashing them. They are fairly smooth to drive and the modern cars 2021+ I've driven, you can't tell,
You realise you are trying to convince a forum of people who actually drive electric cars something they know to be not factually correct right?Asked her how she liked it and she said that she liked carplay. Asked her what it was like to drive and she said much the same has her last car.
When it’s white goods motoring most people just don’t care. We’ve got both, can’t say I’m fussed either way. Real benefit of EV is that it warms up / defrosts a bit faster in winder.
People seem obsessed with picking a side, but ICE and EV are mostly the same - cars that get us from A to B.
Filling up with fuel really ain’t a big deal and neither is plugging it in to charge (assuming you can charge at home - otherwise I can see how travelling to charge would be annoying)
Obviously this is PH so a big part of the EV discussion is about the stupidly fast ones... which is fine, we're car people, we're supposed to like the more interesting cars that go beyond white goods. But for the average motorist the biggest draw is going to be stuff like the convenience of home charging and the smug factor of defrosting or cooling the car before you even get out of bed. The smooth and quiet running is also a plus but not a deal breaker.
We used to make cars one way, we will now make them another way. That's it!
The issue is the class and income divide let's be brutal here. Long term.
Until there is decent local charging network everywhere, those in flats, terraced, lower incomes, basically will not be driving EV's unless they can charge easily and effectively, the repair market is fair and decent and stuff like the secondhand market, insurance and costs are not crazy, that is the determining factor for people like that when buying cars.
It will even out eventually as maybe ICE will disappear and EV is the only option, but I also feel the class divide will start with personal transport, there is no easy solution to local, personal charging, so that will force a lot onto public transport and other forms of commuting, not a bad thing but a choice made for them, not by them.
That is the real deciding factor that will decide the future here.
Until there is decent local charging network everywhere, those in flats, terraced, lower incomes, basically will not be driving EV's unless they can charge easily and effectively, the repair market is fair and decent and stuff like the secondhand market, insurance and costs are not crazy, that is the determining factor for people like that when buying cars.
It will even out eventually as maybe ICE will disappear and EV is the only option, but I also feel the class divide will start with personal transport, there is no easy solution to local, personal charging, so that will force a lot onto public transport and other forms of commuting, not a bad thing but a choice made for them, not by them.
That is the real deciding factor that will decide the future here.
bergclimber34 said:
The issue is the class and income divide let's be brutal here. Long term.
Until there is decent local charging network everywhere, those in flats, terraced, lower incomes, basically will not be driving EV's unless they can charge easily and effectively, the repair market is fair and decent and stuff like the secondhand market, insurance and costs are not crazy, that is the determining factor for people like that when buying cars.
It will even out eventually as maybe ICE will disappear and EV is the only option, but I also feel the class divide will start with personal transport, there is no easy solution to local, personal charging, so that will force a lot onto public transport and other forms of commuting, not a bad thing but a choice made for them, not by them.
That is the real deciding factor that will decide the future here.
You mean people with less money can't afford the new things as quickly as those with more money? That sounds entirely normal and correct in a capitalist society.Until there is decent local charging network everywhere, those in flats, terraced, lower incomes, basically will not be driving EV's unless they can charge easily and effectively, the repair market is fair and decent and stuff like the secondhand market, insurance and costs are not crazy, that is the determining factor for people like that when buying cars.
It will even out eventually as maybe ICE will disappear and EV is the only option, but I also feel the class divide will start with personal transport, there is no easy solution to local, personal charging, so that will force a lot onto public transport and other forms of commuting, not a bad thing but a choice made for them, not by them.
That is the real deciding factor that will decide the future here.
There's absolutely no need for anyone to get an EV until the issues you mention are sorted, all they're missing out on therefore is the opportunity to buy a brand new car for a period of years - which is and always has been an expensive luxury.
The issue therefore is stop penalising those that cannot afford these things with increased emissions taxes and the like on cars they can afford, they cannot afford to run new cars in many cases ( especially with a family therefore needing a larger vehicle).
Effectively you are punishing people for not being able to afford a modern EV by heavily taxing them with all sorts of other costs, maybe not outweighed by the ludicrous cost of a new EV I admit, but even so, they get their pound of flesh either way, as usual. But you see the issue. Emissions based car tax is increasing hugely this month effectively penalising those that cannot afford EV's, that is a dirty way of treating people with less income. No surprise with this lefty shower in power.
Effectively you are punishing people for not being able to afford a modern EV by heavily taxing them with all sorts of other costs, maybe not outweighed by the ludicrous cost of a new EV I admit, but even so, they get their pound of flesh either way, as usual. But you see the issue. Emissions based car tax is increasing hugely this month effectively penalising those that cannot afford EV's, that is a dirty way of treating people with less income. No surprise with this lefty shower in power.
bergclimber34 said:
The issue therefore is stop penalising those that cannot afford these things with increased emissions taxes and the like on cars they can afford, they cannot afford to run new cars in many cases ( especially with a family therefore needing a larger vehicle).
Effectively you are punishing people for not being able to afford a modern EV by heavily taxing them with all sorts of other costs, maybe not outweighed by the ludicrous cost of a new EV I admit, but even so, they get their pound of flesh either way, as usual. But you see the issue. Emissions based car tax is increasing hugely this month effectively penalising those that cannot afford EV's, that is a dirty way of treating people with less income. No surprise with this lefty shower in power.
The emissions fines (ULEZ etc) are for all cars that produce emissions, so that's not a wealth level thing. Obviusly it is the case that motoring in general is getting more expensive... But that's why buses are provided.Effectively you are punishing people for not being able to afford a modern EV by heavily taxing them with all sorts of other costs, maybe not outweighed by the ludicrous cost of a new EV I admit, but even so, they get their pound of flesh either way, as usual. But you see the issue. Emissions based car tax is increasing hugely this month effectively penalising those that cannot afford EV's, that is a dirty way of treating people with less income. No surprise with this lefty shower in power.
I guess the real upset is from those that used to have no problem affording personal transport, but now find it a stretch they may not be able to maintain. That's not really the fault of EV introduction though. It's also the case the relative affordability of things does change, it always has. We can each afford only what we can afford and we shouldn't feel so entitled as to expect that to never change.
TheDeuce said:
The emissions fines (ULEZ etc) are for all cars that produce emissions, so that's not a wealth level thing. Obviusly it is the case that motoring in general is getting more expensive... But that's why buses are provided.
I guess the real upset is from those that used to have no problem affording personal transport, but now find it a stretch they may not be able to maintain. That's not really the fault of EV introduction though. It's also the case the relative affordability of things does change, it always has. We can each afford only what we can afford and we shouldn't feel so entitled as to expect that to never change.
Difference is, all cars used to be taxed at the same rate. £60 for 6m or £120 per year if I remember correctly. Now, anything with a 2.0 petrol engine made after 2006 will cost its owner almost £800/year. Meanwhile, only reason EV drivers can afford to drive new cars is salary sacrifice, lower VED, and cheap energy tariffs. It’s discrimination against poor people for the benefit of people who work in offices and have off street parking. The answer cannot be that they catch the bus, especially when we need every working age person in work and able to get there.I guess the real upset is from those that used to have no problem affording personal transport, but now find it a stretch they may not be able to maintain. That's not really the fault of EV introduction though. It's also the case the relative affordability of things does change, it always has. We can each afford only what we can afford and we shouldn't feel so entitled as to expect that to never change.
Level the playing field for EVs vs ICEs and see how many people choose electric.
Edited by Len Clifton on Saturday 15th March 13:58
Len Clifton said:
Difference is, all cars used to be taxed at the same rate. £60 for 6m or £120 per year if I remember correctly. Now, anything with a 2.0 petrol engine made after 2006 will cost its owner almost £800/year. Meanwhile, only reason EV drivers can afford to drive new cars is salary sacrifice, lower VED, and cheap energy tariffs. It’s discrimination against poor people for the benefit of people who work in offices and have off street parking. The answer cannot be that they catch the bus, especially when we need every working age person in work and able to get there.
Level the playing field for EVs vs ICEs and see how many people choose electric.
Eh? Thats not right? Level the playing field for EVs vs ICEs and see how many people choose electric.
Edited by Len Clifton on Saturday 15th March 13:58
Also its generally cheaper to PCP a new EV than a new ICE car.
An ID.3 is cheaper in that way than the equivalent new Golf.
Also i dont thing theres any enforced requirement for 'poor' people to be buying a new car, EV or otherwise?
Len Clifton said:
Level the playing field for EVs vs ICEs and see how many people choose electric.
In what way is the playing field not level right now? A new EV is likely no more than a new ICE car, when bought via PCP or lease. And outside of Pistonheads where everyone is a Powerfully Built Company Director, almost all new cars arent bought with cash.Len Clifton said:
TheDeuce said:
The emissions fines (ULEZ etc) are for all cars that produce emissions, so that's not a wealth level thing. Obviusly it is the case that motoring in general is getting more expensive... But that's why buses are provided.
I guess the real upset is from those that used to have no problem affording personal transport, but now find it a stretch they may not be able to maintain. That's not really the fault of EV introduction though. It's also the case the relative affordability of things does change, it always has. We can each afford only what we can afford and we shouldn't feel so entitled as to expect that to never change.
Difference is, all cars used to be taxed at the same rate. £60 for 6m or £120 per year if I remember correctly. Now, anything with a 2.0 petrol engine made after 2006 will cost its owner almost £800/year. Meanwhile, only reason EV drivers can afford to drive new cars is salary sacrifice, lower VED, and cheap energy tariffs. It’s discrimination against poor people for the benefit of people who work in offices and have off street parking. The answer cannot be that they catch the bus, especially when we need every working age person in work and able to get there.I guess the real upset is from those that used to have no problem affording personal transport, but now find it a stretch they may not be able to maintain. That's not really the fault of EV introduction though. It's also the case the relative affordability of things does change, it always has. We can each afford only what we can afford and we shouldn't feel so entitled as to expect that to never change.
Level the playing field for EVs vs ICEs and see how many people choose electric.
Edited by Len Clifton on Saturday 15th March 13:58
That’s obviously only the ones for sale.
Highest band for older cars is currently £735, but I’d suggest that anyone buying an older car with a 5L V8 bought it knowing that it wouldn’t be a cheap ownership proposition.
If anything, they’ll have to increase taxes on all the EV owners as the market share grows to offset the loss of fuel duty.
survivalist said:
Len Clifton said:
TheDeuce said:
The emissions fines (ULEZ etc) are for all cars that produce emissions, so that's not a wealth level thing. Obviusly it is the case that motoring in general is getting more expensive... But that's why buses are provided.
I guess the real upset is from those that used to have no problem affording personal transport, but now find it a stretch they may not be able to maintain. That's not really the fault of EV introduction though. It's also the case the relative affordability of things does change, it always has. We can each afford only what we can afford and we shouldn't feel so entitled as to expect that to never change.
Difference is, all cars used to be taxed at the same rate. £60 for 6m or £120 per year if I remember correctly. Now, anything with a 2.0 petrol engine made after 2006 will cost its owner almost £800/year. Meanwhile, only reason EV drivers can afford to drive new cars is salary sacrifice, lower VED, and cheap energy tariffs. It’s discrimination against poor people for the benefit of people who work in offices and have off street parking. The answer cannot be that they catch the bus, especially when we need every working age person in work and able to get there.I guess the real upset is from those that used to have no problem affording personal transport, but now find it a stretch they may not be able to maintain. That's not really the fault of EV introduction though. It's also the case the relative affordability of things does change, it always has. We can each afford only what we can afford and we shouldn't feel so entitled as to expect that to never change.
Level the playing field for EVs vs ICEs and see how many people choose electric.
Edited by Len Clifton on Saturday 15th March 13:58
That’s obviously only the ones for sale.
Highest band for older cars is currently £735, but I’d suggest that anyone buying an older car with a 5L V8 bought it knowing that it wouldn’t be a cheap ownership proposition.
If anything, they’ll have to increase taxes on all the EV owners as the market share grows to offset the loss of fuel duty.
Pretty much any family petrol or diesel car is being priced off the road
Len Clifton said:
survivalist said:
Len Clifton said:
TheDeuce said:
The emissions fines (ULEZ etc) are for all cars that produce emissions, so that's not a wealth level thing. Obviusly it is the case that motoring in general is getting more expensive... But that's why buses are provided.
I guess the real upset is from those that used to have no problem affording personal transport, but now find it a stretch they may not be able to maintain. That's not really the fault of EV introduction though. It's also the case the relative affordability of things does change, it always has. We can each afford only what we can afford and we shouldn't feel so entitled as to expect that to never change.
Difference is, all cars used to be taxed at the same rate. £60 for 6m or £120 per year if I remember correctly. Now, anything with a 2.0 petrol engine made after 2006 will cost its owner almost £800/year. Meanwhile, only reason EV drivers can afford to drive new cars is salary sacrifice, lower VED, and cheap energy tariffs. It’s discrimination against poor people for the benefit of people who work in offices and have off street parking. The answer cannot be that they catch the bus, especially when we need every working age person in work and able to get there.I guess the real upset is from those that used to have no problem affording personal transport, but now find it a stretch they may not be able to maintain. That's not really the fault of EV introduction though. It's also the case the relative affordability of things does change, it always has. We can each afford only what we can afford and we shouldn't feel so entitled as to expect that to never change.
Level the playing field for EVs vs ICEs and see how many people choose electric.
Edited by Len Clifton on Saturday 15th March 13:58
That’s obviously only the ones for sale.
Highest band for older cars is currently £735, but I’d suggest that anyone buying an older car with a 5L V8 bought it knowing that it wouldn’t be a cheap ownership proposition.
If anything, they’ll have to increase taxes on all the EV owners as the market share grows to offset the loss of fuel duty.
Pretty much any family petrol or diesel car is being priced off the road
It might still cost a little more per month but they get a far newer and safer car for the family to enjoy and also are giving less cancer to the other families they drive past.
If that change can be encouraged via tax, why should it not be? If anyone really can't afford it then that's sad, but why would anyone expect to forever be able to afford something? The price of things does change.
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