How will the end of ICE availability affect buyer attitudes?

[ZesPak]

Tindersticks said:

It’s a long long way off.

Depends on what you're talking about, the concept is called the 15 minute city and for all intents and purposes it's a reality in cities like Utrecht and Kopenhagen.

In essence so many people living together, make it convenient to reach everything by bike or walking, most people will leave their car at home or don't even need one. I know plenty of people living in Dutch, Belgian and Danish cities who don't own a car, by choice.

I've been all over Europe for work in the past decade and the car culture, mainly in London and for some reason the Mediterranean (Spain, Italy, Malta,...) is just staggering in how terrible it is as a visitor. Most recently I've been to Kopenhagen and not once did I have an inclination to rent a car.

Edited by ZesPak on Wednesday 12th March 21:51

[richhead]

ZesPak said:

Do they though?

VW ID3, 170hp, starts at 30k
VG Golf, 150hp, starts at 28k

BMW i4 GC, 280hp , starts at 51k
BMW 4 GC, 180hp, starts at 46k

Dacia Spring, 65hp, starts at 16k
Dacia Sandero, 90hp, starts at 14k

Seems like a lot of this would be offset by equipment and running costs? How are they still considerably more? Am I missing something?

so every car you have quoted the electric one costs more, yes i think you are missing something

[ZesPak]

richhead said:

so every car you have quoted the electric one costs more, yes i think you are missing something

As I said, a fast closing gap already offset by better equipment and significantly lower running costs.
Like for like, the gap is negligible, not considerable.

[Tindersticks]

ZesPak said:

Depends on what you're talking about, the concept is called the 15 minute city and for all intents and purposes it's a reality in cities like Utrecht and Kopenhagen.

In essence so many people living together, make it convenient to reach everything by bike or walking, most people will leave their car at home or don't even need one. I know plenty of people living in Dutch, Belgian and Danish cities who don't own a car, by choice.

I've been all over Europe for work in the past decade and the car culture, mainly in London and for some reason the Mediterranean (Spain, Italy, Malta,...) is just staggering in how terrible it is as a visitor. Most recently I've been to Kopenhagen and not once did I have an inclination to rent a car.

Edited by ZesPak on Wednesday 12th March 21:51

The UK. I’ve been to Copenhagen and I wouldn’t need car if I lived and worked there but not would I in London. But I live in neither. Those examples are of no use to most people in the UK. I’m well aware of what a 15 minute city is. Fantastic idea but I see no way that’s happening in the UK with the economy in the toilet and basic services unable to be paid for.

[TheDeuce]

richhead said:

ZesPak said:

Do they though?

VW ID3, 170hp, starts at 30k
VG Golf, 150hp, starts at 28k

BMW i4 GC, 280hp , starts at 51k
BMW 4 GC, 180hp, starts at 46k

Dacia Spring, 65hp, starts at 16k
Dacia Sandero, 90hp, starts at 14k

Seems like a lot of this would be offset by equipment and running costs? How are they still considerably more? Am I missing something?

so every car you have quoted the electric one costs more, yes i think you are missing something

Not including running costs - and cars are bought to be used...

Of the cars listed above the EV's are all cheaper, in reality. You have a point if you're only talking about purchase price, but that would only be of use to morons. I'm not being rude when I say that, it would genuinely be moronic to save a few thousand quid buying a car and then spend more running that car than you saved. It would be a poor financial decision and you would be poorer as a result.

[SWoll]

TheDeuce said:

Not including running costs - and cars are bought to be used...

Of the cars listed above the EV's are all cheaper, in reality. You have a point if you're only talking about purchase price, but that would only be of use to morons. I'm not being rude when I say that, it would genuinely be moronic to save a few thousand quid buying a car and then spend more running that car than you saved. It would be a poor financial decision and you would be poorer as a result.

But by far the biggest running cost for any new car is depreciation, which is where the argument falls down?

[Kawasicki]

I’ve said this going back years, as soon as EVs are way cheaper than ICE vehicles, pretty much everyone will be extolling their virtues.

Money rules.

[TheDeuce]

SWoll said:

TheDeuce said:

Not including running costs - and cars are bought to be used...

Of the cars listed above the EV's are all cheaper, in reality. You have a point if you're only talking about purchase price, but that would only be of use to morons. I'm not being rude when I say that, it would genuinely be moronic to save a few thousand quid buying a car and then spend more running that car than you saved. It would be a poor financial decision and you would be poorer as a result.

But by far the biggest running cost for any new car is depreciation, which is where the argument falls down?

Not really. Perhaps if judged Vs official rrp but nobody should be paying that. Official rrp tends to be inflated for many EV's in the UK.

Lease costs are the simplest comparator of the actual cost and depreciation of such equivalent ICE/EV cars because they're based on the cars actual purchase price and actual expected depreciation.

[TheDeuce]

Kawasicki said:

I’ve said this going back years, as soon as EVs are way cheaper than ICE vehicles, pretty much everyone will be extolling their virtues.

Money rules.

It seems like that might not be far off now the Chinese are doing their bit to reset people's expectation of how much EV's should cost.

Also EV's are going to get cheaper for all manufacturers once they're the main focus of their production, not a side line trying to exist alongside a full range of ICE cars.

[Ankh87]

TheDeuce said:

richhead said:

ZesPak said:

Do they though?

VW ID3, 170hp, starts at 30k
VG Golf, 150hp, starts at 28k

BMW i4 GC, 280hp , starts at 51k
BMW 4 GC, 180hp, starts at 46k

Dacia Spring, 65hp, starts at 16k
Dacia Sandero, 90hp, starts at 14k

Seems like a lot of this would be offset by equipment and running costs? How are they still considerably more? Am I missing something?

so every car you have quoted the electric one costs more, yes i think you are missing something

Not including running costs - and cars are bought to be used...

Of the cars listed above the EV's are all cheaper, in reality. You have a point if you're only talking about purchase price, but that would only be of use to morons. I'm not being rude when I say that, it would genuinely be moronic to save a few thousand quid buying a car and then spend more running that car than you saved. It would be a poor financial decision and you would be poorer as a result.

Yes the EVs are cheaper to run if but what about those who do not care about HP figures? This is the other thing to remember that not everyone cares about power. My partner has zero interest in cars and all she cares about is what it looks like, is it nice to sit in and is the boot big enough for her stuff. There's a lot more people like her who think that way as well, that a car is a tool and nothing more.

[SWoll]

Ankh87 said:

Yes the EVs are cheaper to run if but what about those who do not care about HP figures? This is the other thing to remember that not everyone cares about power. My partner has zero interest in cars and all she cares about is what it looks like, is it nice to sit in and is the boot big enough for her stuff. There's a lot more people like her who think that way as well, that a car is a tool and nothing more.

Then maybe they'll take pleasure in the quieter and far more relaxed driving experience of an EV drivetrain rather than the performance?

I've yet to drive a normal everyday car that isn't massively improved by being an EV. It's cars like that where they make the most sense IME.

[Tindersticks]

I’d agree with that.

Let’s have the everyday workhorse stuff as EV’s and let the niche stuff still be interesting.

[Ankh87]

SWoll said:

Then maybe they'll take pleasure in the quieter and far more relaxed driving experience of an EV drivetrain rather than the performance?

I've yet to drive a normal everyday car that isn't massively improved by being an EV. It's cars like that where they make the most sense IME.

That's arguable though. An EV is no more easier than driving any other automatic ICE car. You can say an EV is quieter but when you have the stereo on, do you actually even notice the engine noise? I don't and I drive a lot of miles.

As for the actually stop and go, driving as a normal person then you don't really notice at all. What you do notice is overtaking as it is much quicker due to the instant torque. Otherwise I can say that my partner does not notice any difference driving an auto ICE to an EV.

The only real benefit is charging up at home, which if you do not have that option, then isn't really an improvement.

I'm all for EVs and will be getting one soon but for 99% of other people who drive an ICE and especially an auto ICE, there isn't much difference for those who drive like a normal person. That's my opinion and in-law who does minimal miles a year to use the car to and from the shops. He hasn't noticed any difference as he rarely goes about 40 mph.

[TheDeuce]

Ankh87 said:

SWoll said:

Then maybe they'll take pleasure in the quieter and far more relaxed driving experience of an EV drivetrain rather than the performance?

I've yet to drive a normal everyday car that isn't massively improved by being an EV. It's cars like that where they make the most sense IME.

That's arguable though. An EV is no more easier than driving any other automatic ICE car. You can say an EV is quieter but when you have the stereo on, do you actually even notice the engine noise? I don't and I drive a lot of miles.

As for the actually stop and go, driving as a normal person then you don't really notice at all. What you do notice is overtaking as it is much quicker due to the instant torque. Otherwise I can say that my partner does not notice any difference driving an auto ICE to an EV.

The only real benefit is charging up at home, which if you do not have that option, then isn't really an improvement.

I'm all for EVs and will be getting one soon but for 99% of other people who drive an ICE and especially an auto ICE, there isn't much difference for those who drive like a normal person. That's my opinion and in-law who does minimal miles a year to use the car to and from the shops. He hasn't noticed any difference as he rarely goes about 40 mph.

What exactly is your point...? If you don't care about power or noise or smoothness or pre-heating etc then fine, as you say you can live without these things. But if the car is still cheaper overall then that's all irrelevant anyway

Because you're still saving money! And time, assuming home charging.

[Ankh87]

TheDeuce said:

What exactly is your point...? If you don't care about power or noise or smoothness or pre-heating etc then fine, as you say you can live without these things. But if the car is still cheaper overall then that's all irrelevant anyway

Because you're still saving money! And time, assuming home charging.

My point is that when comparing, it's comparing apples and oranges. Yes they have things similar but the majority of people wouldn't notice if they were driving an EV or ICE (automatic). Only time they would is when they need to add fuel or electricity.


Also I agree whichever is cheaper is going to be the best option for people, that's a given. If you can power a car on CO2 and was £10k new, people would buy that.

[BERNEV]

People say we don’t always need cars - witness the mention of fifteen minute cities above. All great if you live in one. I live in the Costa del Sol. I don’t use the car at all because I don’t need to day to day. But I do if we need to go anywhere out of the bounds of the immediate Malaga-Marbella strip. Same when I live in the rural West Country. There is no transport and my nearest supermarket is 7 miles away. City dwellers tend to forget that a large percentage of populations remain rural and the utopia of going back to how we were is a feasibility. It isn’t.

[ZesPak]

Kawasicki said:

I’ve said this going back years, as soon as EVs are way cheaper than ICE vehicles, pretty much everyone will be extolling their virtues.

Money rules.

Not even that. When the "more expensive" argument dies out, a lot of people will move their arguments to justify their FUD.

Ankh87 said:

Yes the EVs are cheaper to run if but what about those who do not care about HP figures? This is the other thing to remember that not everyone cares about power. My partner has zero interest in cars and all she cares about is what it looks like, is it nice to sit in and is the boot big enough for her stuff. There's a lot more people like her who think that way as well, that a car is a tool and nothing more.

I know some of these people. Every one of them that I met and has driven an EV would gladly pay a premium to do so, just as they preferred automatics over manuals and the like.
My wife is like that, every car she drives that isn't an EV is like an agricultural implement to her. She puts up with the MX5 as it's tiny to park and has a soft top, but she would much prefer it to be an EV and would have paid easily double for it to be so. She was dead set on the MG Cyberster until I pointed out the size of it.

Ankh87 said:

Yes they have things similar but the majority of people wouldn't notice if they were driving an EV or ICE (automatic).

Talk to some people who aren't interested in cars but drive a PHEV and ask them whether they notice if they are driving in EV only or using the ICE.
Every single one I've heard much prefers the engine to not be on and have the smoother experience of just the EV. Some even drive around it, by accelerating lighter so the ICE doesn't go on.
In all honesty, that statement sounds like one from someone who's never driven an EV for any extend of time.

BERNEV said:

People say we don’t always need cars - witness the mention of fifteen minute cities above. All great if you live in one. I live in the Costa del Sol. I don’t use the car at all because I don’t need to day to day. But I do if we need to go anywhere out of the bounds of the immediate Malaga-Marbella strip. Same when I live in the rural West Country. There is no transport and my nearest supermarket is 7 miles away. City dwellers tend to forget that a large percentage of populations remain rural and the utopia of going back to how we were is a feasibility. It isn’t.

I even mentioned the Mediterranean (and specifically Spain) in my post about 15 minute cities. The post was in response to the "war on cars", which is basically waged in the form of LEZ and giving more room to other forms of transport in the city.
Traffic jams, accidents and local emissions aren't much of an issue if you live rural, and I haven't seen a ban on cars outside the cities either?

Edited by ZesPak on Thursday 13th March 10:57

[RoadToad84]

I don't have any skin in the game here. I don't like the pushiness of the EV narrative, but I'm not fundamentally opposed to EVs as a solution.
I'd even have one myself for day to day duties. I tend to cycle a fair bit for work and local trips, but also have a V8 Chevy, a motorbike and a diesel Mégane.

The issue I have is charging infrastructure. My housing situation is admittedly an edge case, but I live in an end terrace house, which is set down from the road by about 6 foot with stepped access to the property. No driveway, and parking is about 50 yards from the house, up said steps and at the side of the road. I'd have to rely on public charging, which I could potentially do, but the cost of such at present, coupled with the (relatively) minor time penalty for charging vs refuelling, just means the appetite for making the change isn't there.

[BERNEV]

“If you don’t live in a rural area.” Grammar please.

[SWoll]

Ankh87 said:

My point is that when comparing, it's comparing apples and oranges. Yes they have things similar but the majority of people wouldn't notice if they were driving an EV or ICE (automatic). Only time they would is when they need to add fuel or electricity.

Don't agree without at all. Yet to speak to an EV driver who doesn't comment on how much smoother, quieter, more responsive and easy to drive they are than any ICE car they've had previously.