EVs... no one wants them! (Vol. 2)

[_Hoppers]

greenarrow said:

That is terrible and a reason why I am not rushing out either. As the last poster said, horses for courses. My driving pattern is fairly unusual I would say. Three weeks a month by car generally sits on the drive most days or days shortish trips, max 10 miles each way. Once a month its a 520 mile round trip to the office, often diverting to Manchester from the Liverpool city centre office to visit my daughter, who lives on a busy road with no drive and no evidence of any chargers nearby. I would almost certainly have to use a motorway charger at least once, or if not, one of the local ones in a city, charging a fairly premium rate. My wife pointed out that if I had an EV I would have to factor in charging and find a cheaper alternative, but here's the rub, in my existing 10 year old diesel I don't have to. I just do the whole trip on one tank of fuel. So, seeing as the car is giving good service and has been reliable, I will stick with it for now as for me it does the job. BUT, I would love an EV as a second car for the local trips, I won't lie. They seem perfect for the urban trips where you want instant pick up and not to be polluting from the tailpipe in built up areas....

Out of interest, can you put your round trip into the Tesla route planner below and see what it comes back with for charging locations and charging times?

https://www.tesla.com/en_gb/trips

[PinkHouse]

braddo said:

Chamon_Lee said:

The problem is this started with EV die hards usually placing themselves on a higher pedestal over and above everyone else. Add to that the lack of information/hidden information regarding EV cars and their manufacturing and it just becomes a slinging match all round. To make matters worse the government in all their glory have decided to implement a "ban on ICE" cars by a certain year, well it's just common sense that if you are going to try and ban something then you better have a dam good reason to ban it and I am sorry to say they just don't. At best the climate change argument is a theory and nothing more. There is plenty of evidance our temps have not moved, there was an article the other day of no more ice melting then from hundreds of years ago and CO2 is required for our air so how on earth they have made it a bad thing is beyond me.
I mean to even contemplate the idea of chemically feeding cows to make them fart less is the most absurd thing I have ever heard in my life, anyone on board with that really just need to re-calibrate their common sense portal.
Putting aside the material gathering issues of EV's, as a product they are great if they are available side by side with ICE cars. If they are as brilliant and life changing as everyone claims them to be in they will naturally overtake ICE cars.

There's a whole load of nonsense in there.

You're in a tiny minority of the UK population who are climate change sceptics. When even the world's biggest oil companies accept the science, and oil states are hosting COP summits, surely you ought to realise the game is up and you need to pull your head out of the sand?

Hopefully your answer doesn't include the WEF

Why don't we hear the direct thoughts of the oil states hosting COP summits and their future plans for oil and gas

[p1stonhead]

PinkHouse said:

braddo said:

Chamon_Lee said:

The problem is this started with EV die hards usually placing themselves on a higher pedestal over and above everyone else. Add to that the lack of information/hidden information regarding EV cars and their manufacturing and it just becomes a slinging match all round. To make matters worse the government in all their glory have decided to implement a "ban on ICE" cars by a certain year, well it's just common sense that if you are going to try and ban something then you better have a dam good reason to ban it and I am sorry to say they just don't. At best the climate change argument is a theory and nothing more. There is plenty of evidance our temps have not moved, there was an article the other day of no more ice melting then from hundreds of years ago and CO2 is required for our air so how on earth they have made it a bad thing is beyond me.
I mean to even contemplate the idea of chemically feeding cows to make them fart less is the most absurd thing I have ever heard in my life, anyone on board with that really just need to re-calibrate their common sense portal.
Putting aside the material gathering issues of EV's, as a product they are great if they are available side by side with ICE cars. If they are as brilliant and life changing as everyone claims them to be in they will naturally overtake ICE cars.

There's a whole load of nonsense in there.

You're in a tiny minority of the UK population who are climate change sceptics. When even the world's biggest oil companies accept the science, and oil states are hosting COP summits, surely you ought to realise the game is up and you need to pull your head out of the sand?

Hopefully your answer doesn't include the WEF

Why don't we hear the direct thoughts of the oil states hosting COP summits and their future plans for oil and gas

You think oil and gas was made by god?….

[PinkHouse]

scenario8 said:

I’d hazard a very large proportion of the public feel gaslit about the topic after decades of propaganda, aren’t equipped on a personal level to hold an opinion in any case, may well have sympathy for a man made element of the problem regardless and will just put up with the provided solutions with or without hypocrisy and/or moaning as they’re not very clued up on the consequences and are too busy getting on with their lives in a zombie like fashion.

As long as Banks keep lending money to prime coastal real-estate and governments keep spending billions on coastal land reclamation projects (which the scientists keep predicting will be underwater in "a couple of decades") then people would quite rightly see the disconnect and realise that the big players and smart money are doing the opposite of what the climate alarmists are predicting

[PinkHouse]

scenario8 said:

I’d be interested in seeing specifically what that non-speak actually means. It’s hard to believe the PPE architecture could accept reverse engineering any ICE element. The Boxster/Cayman development must be close to being signed off. The current Taycan chassis can’t possibly be re-engineered for ICE involvement, surely?

Edited while waiting for the kettle to boil while on a day off.

Resurrecting the Macan ICE chassis?

Prolonging the current Cayenne model…?

Same for the current 911 chassis?

Both big sellers outside of Europe.

Absolutely epic levels of investment required to prolong ICE production while launching the EV ranges, though. Crazy times.

Edited by scenario8 on Friday 29th November 10:17

Lotus have similarly binned their EV only commitments and are developing range extender hybrid tech into theie existing platforms which is a pretty good strategy as hybrids seem to be the best current solution. However they're still going to be hampered by complexity and reliability concerns and this is clearly seen in the used market. Look up the values of hybrid bmws, range rovers etc and their used values are much lower than pure ICE counterparts, even in many cases where the ICE has a much lower system power output.

Most people don't like the concept to dealing with batteries outside warranty periods

[PinkHouse]

Chamon_Lee said:

braddo said:

Chamon_Lee said:

The problem is this started with EV die hards usually placing themselves on a higher pedestal over and above everyone else. Add to that the lack of information/hidden information regarding EV cars and their manufacturing and it just becomes a slinging match all round. To make matters worse the government in all their glory have decided to implement a "ban on ICE" cars by a certain year, well it's just common sense that if you are going to try and ban something then you better have a dam good reason to ban it and I am sorry to say they just don't. At best the climate change argument is a theory and nothing more. There is plenty of evidance our temps have not moved, there was an article the other day of no more ice melting then from hundreds of years ago and CO2 is required for our air so how on earth they have made it a bad thing is beyond me.
I mean to even contemplate the idea of chemically feeding cows to make them fart less is the most absurd thing I have ever heard in my life, anyone on board with that really just need to re-calibrate their common sense portal.
Putting aside the material gathering issues of EV's, as a product they are great if they are available side by side with ICE cars. If they are as brilliant and life changing as everyone claims them to be in they will naturally overtake ICE cars.

There's a whole load of nonsense in there.

You're in a tiny minority of the UK population who are climate change sceptics. When even the world's biggest oil companies accept the science, and oil states are hosting COP summits, surely you ought to realise the game is up and you need to pull your head out of the sand?

Hopefully your answer doesn't include the WEF

I don't think there is any nonsense in there what so ever.
I think the evidence is clear to see if your not blinded by your own ego that being duped by the miss information you have been fed could in fact led you to the incorrect conclusion.
I would in fact state that I am in the majority and the minority are the ones who think otherwise.

I would also go as far as to say the whole method by which we are even tackling the "climate change" is a joke, get rid of plastics, get rid of consumerism and the throw away attitude of product production and that in itself would drastically improve the situation oh but wait they wouldn't actually do that right because ......... better stop, don't want to be accused of being a tin foil hat guy.

All the last 5 years has shown me with covid, Russians are bad, Palestine war is that people are fickle and quite frankly down right stupid at times and the media is extremely powerful at believing the crap their are fed. Even reading news articles from 50 years ago proves the crock of st they were fed.

Anyway back to topic - EV's good in their own way and useful tools, at what expense, who knows!
Good bye.

You're forgetting these people claim to care about climate change so they can appear as caring and virtuous, but won't do anything that causes them inconvenience to make a change. We've heard from every EV owner on this thread that EVs are way more convenient for their lifestyles, so clearly they're happy to help the climate where it makes their lives easier.

There was another poster that admitted he's not ready to give up jetting abroad on holidays because there "isn't any viable decarbonisation path yet". It's a convenient excuse that ignores the very simple and 100% effective decarbonisation method that involves stopping flying

[DonkeyApple]

greenarrow said:

That is terrible and a reason why I am not rushing out either. As the last poster said, horses for courses. My driving pattern is fairly unusual I would say. Three weeks a month by car generally sits on the drive most days or days shortish trips, max 10 miles each way. Once a month its a 520 mile round trip to the office, often diverting to Manchester from the Liverpool city centre office to visit my daughter, who lives on a busy road with no drive and no evidence of any chargers nearby. I would almost certainly have to use a motorway charger at least once, or if not, one of the local ones in a city, charging a fairly premium rate. My wife pointed out that if I had an EV I would have to factor in charging and find a cheaper alternative, but here's the rub, in my existing 10 year old diesel I don't have to. I just do the whole trip on one tank of fuel. So, seeing as the car is giving good service and has been reliable, I will stick with it for now as for me it does the job. BUT, I would love an EV as a second car for the local trips, I won't lie. They seem perfect for the urban trips where you want instant pick up and not to be polluting from the tailpipe in built up areas....

Yup. That's an ICE or hybrid but the question is in ten years time will you still be doing that drive to a university and in 20 years time still be doing the same job? And in 20 years time will there still be the same restrictive number of chargers etc.

This is why no one has to switch now and why it is voluntary and aimed solely at this who can or who wish to.

When my children eventually leave home my whole driving pattern will manifestly change as it will in retirement so my intent is to not do a single thing that I don't wish to do for at least the next decade.

[nickfrog]

Chamon_Lee said:

The problem is this started with EV die hards usually placing themselves on a higher pedestal over and above everyone else.

Who? I haven't seen this happen in this thread at least. EV adopters seem to stil really like ICE too or at least have had ICE in the past.

[JD]

greenarrow said:

That is terrible and a reason why I am not rushing out either. As the last poster said, horses for courses. My driving pattern is fairly unusual I would say. Three weeks a month by car generally sits on the drive most days or days shortish trips, max 10 miles each way. Once a month its a 520 mile round trip to the office, often diverting to Manchester from the Liverpool city centre office to visit my daughter, who lives on a busy road with no drive and no evidence of any chargers nearby. I would almost certainly have to use a motorway charger at least once, or if not, one of the local ones in a city, charging a fairly premium rate. My wife pointed out that if I had an EV I would have to factor in charging and find a cheaper alternative, but here's the rub, in my existing 10 year old diesel I don't have to. I just do the whole trip on one tank of fuel. So, seeing as the car is giving good service and has been reliable, I will stick with it for now as for me it does the job. BUT, I would love an EV as a second car for the local trips, I won't lie. They seem perfect for the urban trips where you want instant pick up and not to be polluting from the tailpipe in built up areas....

I don’t understand what you are saying? You are saying you don’t want to switch as you would have to pay a premium, but you are and have been paying that premium for 10 years.

I make you usage £500 a year in an EV, or £1100 in a diesel.

£6k, could buy a nice 10 year old diesel car with that!

[Trevor555]

pti said:

Trevor555 said:

My first contribution to this topic, and I'm sure it's been pointed out already.

Paid £62 for a fast charge to get me just another 200 miles delivering a car to Scotland.

Hasn't exactly encouraged me to rush out and buy one.

Well, yes. If that's a journey you make regularly it would be quite foolish.

We've done 8500 so far in our EV, and have used motorway services twice. And just for a top up to get us to our destination. Probably no more than £30. The rest has been done at home for ~£20/1000 miles.

Horses for courses.

Ah yes I get that.

But I guess my point was, the Government are supposed to be encouraging us to buy EV's.

Yet they allow this sort of overcharging on the motorways to take place.

[schedoni]

JD said:

greenarrow said:

That is terrible and a reason why I am not rushing out either. As the last poster said, horses for courses. My driving pattern is fairly unusual I would say. Three weeks a month by car generally sits on the drive most days or days shortish trips, max 10 miles each way. Once a month its a 520 mile round trip to the office, often diverting to Manchester from the Liverpool city centre office to visit my daughter, who lives on a busy road with no drive and no evidence of any chargers nearby. I would almost certainly have to use a motorway charger at least once, or if not, one of the local ones in a city, charging a fairly premium rate. My wife pointed out that if I had an EV I would have to factor in charging and find a cheaper alternative, but here's the rub, in my existing 10 year old diesel I don't have to. I just do the whole trip on one tank of fuel. So, seeing as the car is giving good service and has been reliable, I will stick with it for now as for me it does the job. BUT, I would love an EV as a second car for the local trips, I won't lie. They seem perfect for the urban trips where you want instant pick up and not to be polluting from the tailpipe in built up areas....

I don’t understand what you are saying? You are saying you don’t want to switch as you would have to pay a premium, but you are and have been paying that premium for 10 years.

I make you usage £500 a year in an EV, or £1100 in a diesel.

£6k, could buy a nice 10 year old diesel car with that!

That's the thing. Most people don't properly objectively look at the numbers as rejecting an EV as just not right for them fits into the confirmation bias that most of us are prone to when faced with change.

But hand on heart, there are a lot of people for whom an EV who delver a better, more convenient and cheaper form of motoring, in exchange for very marginal inconvenience for a very small proportion of their journeys and a requirement to learn a few new habits.

That's why the various government mandates are needed, as without some sort of nudging, resistance to change will make the transition to EV painfully slow. The good news is that for anyone who feels they genuinely would be worse off using an EV, either due to cost or inconvenience....YOU DON'T HAVE TO!
There's plenty of time for the tech to improve to the level they need before they have to change.


As an aside, I think that Governments have handled the incentives badly resulting in a more polarised debate than needed to be the case. Rather than ban pure ICE vehicles after 2030, if they set a sliding scale for ever more stringent CO2 limits, possibly with a progressive reduction in the max capacity on petrol engines allowed, that would have the same effect without appearing to be as draconian.

Say limit tail pipe CO2 to 80g/km and max capacity to 1.4l after 2030.

In effect limiting ICE cars to these with lifetime CO2 levels not dissimilar to (larger generally) EVs. That would level the playing field and have the desired effect. People would then choose EV's as being better than their ICE counterparts unless they really couldn't or did not want to get on with an EV.

And a lot of the frothing about state overreach would be neutered.

And Ferrari woudl no doubt create a twin turbo 1.4 hybrid supercar revving to 11,000rpm to keep us all happy to boot.

[braddo]

Chamon_Lee said:

I would in fact state that I am in the majority and the minority are the ones who think otherwise.

"Only 4% think that climate change is taking place but is being driven primarily by factors other than human activity"

https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/45998-what-...

It will be interesting to see in the coming few years whether there will be stats about what percentage of EV owners switch back to ICE or hybrid for their next car and why. I suspect the % will be very small indeed. It would be a useful indicator of how satisfied EV owners are with EVs.

[TikTak]

Trevor555 said:

pti said:

Trevor555 said:

My first contribution to this topic, and I'm sure it's been pointed out already.

Paid £62 for a fast charge to get me just another 200 miles delivering a car to Scotland.

Hasn't exactly encouraged me to rush out and buy one.

Well, yes. If that's a journey you make regularly it would be quite foolish.

We've done 8500 so far in our EV, and have used motorway services twice. And just for a top up to get us to our destination. Probably no more than £30. The rest has been done at home for ~£20/1000 miles.

Horses for courses.

Ah yes I get that.

But I guess my point was, the Government are supposed to be encouraging us to buy EV's.

Yet they allow this sort of overcharging on the motorways to take place.

Agreed. As I said before, there need to be some benefits to a switch or people will not want to and will have to be forced. Something has to be done about getting a lot more charging infrastructure at a fraction of the cost, and hopefully that will help the 2nd hand market pick up and price down too leading to more of masses switching.

With 45% of people with no driveway and the average used price of an EV twice that of ICE cars, people can't be expected to pay more for their car in the first place and then more to 'fill' it up.

These '20 minute' chargers will need to be absolutely everywhere, actually work and charge in the time quoted as well as being about half the price they are currently.

Might be a swing back to more WFH for some though (in areas that drive to work is more popular), as why should businesses have to create bigger car parks, charging infrastructure and then shoulder the cost?

[braddo]

TikTak said:

Something has to be done about getting a lot more charging infrastructure at a fraction of the cost, and hopefully that will help the 2nd hand market pick up and price down too leading to more of masses switching.

With 45% of people with no driveway and the average used price of an EV twice that of ICE cars, people can't be expected to pay more for their car in the first place and then more to 'fill' it up.

These '20 minute' chargers will need to be absolutely everywhere, actually work and charge in the time quoted as well as being about half the price they are currently.

Something is being done.

"The number of public charge points in the UK has grown from 53,865 at the end of 2023 to more than 70,000 by October 2024. This represents a 32% increase in devices since December 2023, and a 38% year on year increase in charge devices since October 2023."

https://www.zap-map.com/ev-stats/how-many-charging...

No-one is being expected to pay more to buy an EV today. If one isn't in budget, don't buy one, and wait. The only way to get more cheap used EVs is to sell more new ones and that will only ever be 3-6% of the national fleet every year (1-2 million vehicles p.a.).

The infrastructure doesn't need to be built out faster than the growth in the EV fleet. And '20 minute' chargers will never need to be absolutely everywhere. Most people will only need to charge their EVs less than once a week. Public charging prices will surely come down over time.

[monkfish1]

braddo said:

TikTak said:

Something has to be done about getting a lot more charging infrastructure at a fraction of the cost, and hopefully that will help the 2nd hand market pick up and price down too leading to more of masses switching.

With 45% of people with no driveway and the average used price of an EV twice that of ICE cars, people can't be expected to pay more for their car in the first place and then more to 'fill' it up.

These '20 minute' chargers will need to be absolutely everywhere, actually work and charge in the time quoted as well as being about half the price they are currently.

Something is being done.

"The number of public charge points in the UK has grown from 53,865 at the end of 2023 to more than 70,000 by October 2024. This represents a 32% increase in devices since December 2023, and a 38% year on year increase in charge devices since October 2023."

https://www.zap-map.com/ev-stats/how-many-charging...

No-one is being expected to pay more to buy an EV today. If one isn't in budget, don't buy one, and wait. The only way to get more cheap used EVs is to sell more new ones and that will only ever be 3-6% of the national fleet every year (1-2 million vehicles p.a.).

The infrastructure doesn't need to be built out faster than the growth in the EV fleet. And '20 minute' chargers will never need to be absolutely everywhere. Most people will only need to charge their EVs less than once a week. Public charging prices will surely come down over time.

All logical enough. Right up to the last statement.

Why will the prices come down?Why will these private copanies reduce their profits? Answr, they wont, unless external pressure is brought to bear.

Which really means government intervention. Not hopeful of that.

Even something as simple as being forced to display there prices prominently like petrol and diesel would bre a start.

[JQ]

monkfish1 said:

braddo said:

TikTak said:

Something has to be done about getting a lot more charging infrastructure at a fraction of the cost, and hopefully that will help the 2nd hand market pick up and price down too leading to more of masses switching.

With 45% of people with no driveway and the average used price of an EV twice that of ICE cars, people can't be expected to pay more for their car in the first place and then more to 'fill' it up.

These '20 minute' chargers will need to be absolutely everywhere, actually work and charge in the time quoted as well as being about half the price they are currently.

Something is being done.

"The number of public charge points in the UK has grown from 53,865 at the end of 2023 to more than 70,000 by October 2024. This represents a 32% increase in devices since December 2023, and a 38% year on year increase in charge devices since October 2023."

https://www.zap-map.com/ev-stats/how-many-charging...

No-one is being expected to pay more to buy an EV today. If one isn't in budget, don't buy one, and wait. The only way to get more cheap used EVs is to sell more new ones and that will only ever be 3-6% of the national fleet every year (1-2 million vehicles p.a.).

The infrastructure doesn't need to be built out faster than the growth in the EV fleet. And '20 minute' chargers will never need to be absolutely everywhere. Most people will only need to charge their EVs less than once a week. Public charging prices will surely come down over time.

All logical enough. Right up to the last statement.

Why will the prices come down?Why will these private copanies reduce their profits? Answr, they wont, unless external pressure is brought to bear.

Which really means government intervention. Not hopeful of that.

Even something as simple as being forced to display there prices prominently like petrol and diesel would bre a start.

Not my area of expertise, but surely the logic is that the installations have huge upfront costs which need to be paid back in the short term. Once that cost is recovered, prices can be reduced and yet profit levels will be maintained. That combined with competition.

[GT9]

PinkHouse said:

There was another poster that admitted he's not ready to give up jetting abroad on holidays because there "isn't any viable decarbonisation path yet". It's a convenient excuse that ignores the very simple and 100% effective decarbonisation method that involves stopping flying

I didn't say there isn't a viable pathway, I said it will take longer.
Your ability to make things up as you go is impressive, almost in Donald's league.
If we stop flying, what about the job losses, are they less worthy than the potential job losses you are unhappy about in the passenger car sector?

[DonkeyApple]

Trevor555 said:

Ah yes I get that.

But I guess my point was, the Government are supposed to be encouraging us to buy EV's.

Yet they allow this sort of overcharging on the motorways to take place.

But what if they weren't encouraging people to buy EVs if those silly motorway prices are too high?

They aren't encouraging everyone to buy an EV just a small number of people and none of those people have to.

[Tindersticks]

GT9 said:

I didn't say there isn't a viable pathway, I said it will take longer.
Your ability to make things up as you go is impressive, almost in Donald's league.
If we stop flying, what about the job losses, are they less worthy than the potential job losses you are unhappy about in the passenger car sector?

Drill baby, drill.

[DonkeyApple]

PinkHouse said:

Lotus have similarly binned their EV only commitments and are developing range extender hybrid tech into theie existing platforms which is a pretty good strategy as hybrids seem to be the best current solution. However they're still going to be hampered by complexity and reliability concerns and this is clearly seen in the used market. Look up the values of hybrid bmws, range rovers etc and their used values are much lower than pure ICE counterparts, even in many cases where the ICE has a much lower system power output.

Most people don't like the concept to dealing with batteries outside warranty periods

They won't really be 'developing' anything. They're just going to be taking another product off the line and sticking a Lotus badge on it.

Ie It'll be the new Zeekr hybrid.