Tesla unlikely to Survive (Vol. 3)
Discussion
In the UK, at least, the trends in car sales are probably not helping.
YTD, BEVs are +16% YoY, but private sales of all cars are -12% YoY. Looking at the winners and losers by brand, some stand-out losers:
Tesla -12%
Porsche -28%
Audi -6%
Ford -23%
Maserati -50%
Polestar -56%
Toyota -9%
Vauxhall -10%
Bentley -40%
And the stand-out winners:
Jaguar +49%
BMW +31%
Cupra +25%
SEAT +31% (not bad for a brand supposedly due to die!)
Peugeot +16%
Nissan +22%
MG +10%
Renault +61%
Volvo +28%
That said, Tesla for the rolling 12 months to July still out-sold MINI, SEAT, Citroen, and were close to Renault's total - not at all bad for 2 models, both of which are BEVs. The top-sellers in the market overall are primarily value-driven choices. The big winner was BMW, who've been aggressively targeting growth thanks to an *extraordinary* array of models coupled with puncy lease deals.
And Jaguar? I can only assume this is offer-driven, since Tata's plan for the brand now seems to be for it to take "a year off" and there's inventory to shift.
YTD, BEVs are +16% YoY, but private sales of all cars are -12% YoY. Looking at the winners and losers by brand, some stand-out losers:
Tesla -12%
Porsche -28%
Audi -6%
Ford -23%
Maserati -50%
Polestar -56%
Toyota -9%
Vauxhall -10%
Bentley -40%
And the stand-out winners:
Jaguar +49%
BMW +31%
Cupra +25%
SEAT +31% (not bad for a brand supposedly due to die!)
Peugeot +16%
Nissan +22%
MG +10%
Renault +61%
Volvo +28%
That said, Tesla for the rolling 12 months to July still out-sold MINI, SEAT, Citroen, and were close to Renault's total - not at all bad for 2 models, both of which are BEVs. The top-sellers in the market overall are primarily value-driven choices. The big winner was BMW, who've been aggressively targeting growth thanks to an *extraordinary* array of models coupled with puncy lease deals.
And Jaguar? I can only assume this is offer-driven, since Tata's plan for the brand now seems to be for it to take "a year off" and there's inventory to shift.
tamore said:
ratner's stuff was dogs
t though. teslas may look bland, but they are exactly what an EV should be. all the EV stuff just works.
EV stuff, maybe, but not car stuff like auto park, windscreen wipers, city street assisted driving coming next year (for 5 years running).. control arms made out of tin foil, 2 models not available in right hand drive, indicators on steering wheel because musk knows best... t though. teslas may look bland, but they are exactly what an EV should be. all the EV stuff just works.Edited by Gone fishing on Sunday 11th August 07:20
his view seems to be that because it's online and in particular twitter, you can say what the hell you like.
if it had been a recorded interview, or in a printed directly quoted article, he would be sued, plain and simple. if she does anything about this, it'll be foisted as an example of attacking free speech and whichever bloody amendment from an archaic document that needs scrapping.
if it had been a recorded interview, or in a printed directly quoted article, he would be sued, plain and simple. if she does anything about this, it'll be foisted as an example of attacking free speech and whichever bloody amendment from an archaic document that needs scrapping.
It could easily be interpreted as a threat to violate her.. what does “I’ll give you a child” mean in South Africa (which was his pedo defence), I can see it (at an extreme) being a threat to rape in some cultures.
It does show him to be a misogynist that’s right up there with Trump.
It does show him to be a misogynist that’s right up there with Trump.
tamore said:
Puzzles said:
tamore said:
people not buying something because of the opinions/ comments/ actions by the CEO of the manufacturing company are going to find themselves not buying very much! Musk is a cock, but who cares when you're buying a car?
the beetle did ok
I don’t know. I speak to a lot of company car drivers and his name is often cited as a reason why the aren’t replacing their current Tesla with another Tesla. the beetle did ok
Musk doesn't have these guardrails. Some argue that this is because he's "fighting for free speech for the world", others - such as myself - would say that he has the freedom to behave the way he does because he's the richest guy in the world. He'll suffer no meaningful consequences for anything he says, so he's fully mask off, and it's not a pretty sight.
As "Some Gump" said, Tesla more than any other brand - including Apple - the whole brand is inextricably linked to him, and wrapped up in the Tony Stark persona - staggering how unrealistic this is nowadays. If you own a Tesla you are in many eyes tacitly accepting of his views.
Edited by Durzel on Friday 13th September 12:40
Durzel said:
As "Some Gump" said, Tesla more than any other brand - including Apple - the whole brand is inextricably linked to him, and wrapped up in the Tony Stark persona - staggering how unrealistic this is nowadays. If you own a Tesla you are in many eyes tacitly accepting of his views.
As someone who's owned a Tesla long before Musk became such a controversial figure, all the people I know that have been avid Tesla haters (most because of FUD), still are. The people that weren't either got a Tesla or are contemplating it.It's like suddenly caring about the poor kids mining the cobalt but never giving a damn about any oil-fueled war or disaster in the past 20 years.
How much image damage has Dieselgate really done to VAG in terms of brand loyalty?
IME he just gives haters some extra fuel, nothing more, nothing less.
To their advantage though, hey have a great product at the price they set it, anything comparable is either a lot worse in some important metrics or 30% more expensive. If they had really comparable competition it would be another matter, as it could tip people one way or another. But fork out an extra 10k because Musk's tweets are offensive?
It's like wanting an affordable two seater convertible that drives good but then not wanting it from Mazda because they faked some safety tests.
If you want to take Apple as an example, they have demonstrably, measurably f
ked over their own users on multiple occasions. But they're the only ones producing an iPhone and so if you want an iPhone you pull off your pants and order one from Apple.Edited by ZesPak on Friday 13th September 13:13
ZesPak said:
Durzel said:
As "Some Gump" said, Tesla more than any other brand - including Apple - the whole brand is inextricably linked to him, and wrapped up in the Tony Stark persona - staggering how unrealistic this is nowadays. If you own a Tesla you are in many eyes tacitly accepting of his views.
As someone who's owned a Tesla long before Musk became such a controversial figure, all the people I know that have been avid Tesla haters (most because of FUD), still are. The people that weren't either got a Tesla or are contemplating it.It's like suddenly caring about the poor kids mining the cobalt but never giving a damn about any oil-fueled war or disaster in the past 20 years.
How much image damage has Dieselgate really done to VAG in terms of brand loyalty?
IME he just gives haters some extra fuel, nothing more, nothing less.
To their advantage though, hey have a great product at the price they set it, anything comparable is either a lot worse in some important metrics or 30% more expensive. If they had really comparable competition it would be another matter, as it could tip people one way or another. But fork out an extra 10k because Musk's tweets are offensive?
It's like wanting an affordable two seater convertible that drives good but then not wanting it from Mazda because they faked some safety tests.
If you want to take Apple as an example, they have demonstrably, measurably f
ked over their own users on multiple occasions. But they're the only ones producing an iPhone and so if you want an iPhone you pull off your pants and order one from Apple.Edited by ZesPak on Friday 13th September 13:13
Or if we pretend people buy cars based on the politics of those that make them... It's still not a problem as over half the US population voted for Trump and over half the UK population voted for Brexit...
I also think musk gets bored and slings these comments into to the ether simply to make the point that he's allowed to say whatever he wishes, even if some people take offence or disagree. I ultimately agree with that stance, even if I don't agree the bloke himself quite often!
People don't buy on a single factor, its more complex than that.
The Tesla forums include some (not all, but enough to be noticeable) people who are now getting twitchy and even getting abuse for driving Teslas, and there are threads on competition. I myself got shot of my 4th Tesla and nearly 9 years of ownership to get a BMW EV, as much because of the companies (Tesla) endless lies, treating the UK like third class customers (the US is 1st, mainland europe 2nd, and we don't even get a look in yet are expected to pay the most). Thats quite a noticeable change. The steering wheel indicators are a similar concern. The combination of things mean its now easier to look elsewhere and not even consider a Tesla, just as some will turn their nose up at a Peugeot or MG EV because of badge snobbery without checking the details.
Europe inclduing the UK is awash with new inventory. You can get a new Model Y RWD on a 3 years lease for under £400 a month, and they've not sold out over night. 2 years ago you had a 6 month wait for the car. Not all of it is due to Musk being a baffoon, but he's not helping
The Tesla forums include some (not all, but enough to be noticeable) people who are now getting twitchy and even getting abuse for driving Teslas, and there are threads on competition. I myself got shot of my 4th Tesla and nearly 9 years of ownership to get a BMW EV, as much because of the companies (Tesla) endless lies, treating the UK like third class customers (the US is 1st, mainland europe 2nd, and we don't even get a look in yet are expected to pay the most). Thats quite a noticeable change. The steering wheel indicators are a similar concern. The combination of things mean its now easier to look elsewhere and not even consider a Tesla, just as some will turn their nose up at a Peugeot or MG EV because of badge snobbery without checking the details.
Europe inclduing the UK is awash with new inventory. You can get a new Model Y RWD on a 3 years lease for under £400 a month, and they've not sold out over night. 2 years ago you had a 6 month wait for the car. Not all of it is due to Musk being a baffoon, but he's not helping
Gone fishing said:
People don't buy on a single factor, its more complex than that.
The Tesla forums include some (not all, but enough to be noticeable) people who are now getting twitchy and even getting abuse for driving Teslas, and there are threads on competition. I myself got shot of my 4th Tesla and nearly 9 years of ownership to get a BMW EV, as much because of the companies (Tesla) endless lies, treating the UK like third class customers (the US is 1st, mainland europe 2nd, and we don't even get a look in yet are expected to pay the most). Thats quite a noticeable change. The steering wheel indicators are a similar concern. The combination of things mean its now easier to look elsewhere and not even consider a Tesla, just as some will turn their nose up at a Peugeot or MG EV because of badge snobbery without checking the details.
Europe inclduing the UK is awash with new inventory. You can get a new Model Y RWD on a 3 years lease for under £400 a month, and they've not sold out over night. 2 years ago you had a 6 month wait for the car. Not all of it is due to Musk being a baffoon, but he's not helping
Personally I think the biggest factor in the shift away from Tesla is simply competition from other suppliers. Only a few years ago it felt like Tesla was the 'Hoover' of the EV market, but now... For similar money you can sit in a far nicer (imo) EV.The Tesla forums include some (not all, but enough to be noticeable) people who are now getting twitchy and even getting abuse for driving Teslas, and there are threads on competition. I myself got shot of my 4th Tesla and nearly 9 years of ownership to get a BMW EV, as much because of the companies (Tesla) endless lies, treating the UK like third class customers (the US is 1st, mainland europe 2nd, and we don't even get a look in yet are expected to pay the most). Thats quite a noticeable change. The steering wheel indicators are a similar concern. The combination of things mean its now easier to look elsewhere and not even consider a Tesla, just as some will turn their nose up at a Peugeot or MG EV because of badge snobbery without checking the details.
Europe inclduing the UK is awash with new inventory. You can get a new Model Y RWD on a 3 years lease for under £400 a month, and they've not sold out over night. 2 years ago you had a 6 month wait for the car. Not all of it is due to Musk being a baffoon, but he's not helping
That and the supercharger network was formally a big USP, now not so much, their are none Tesla rapid chargers everywhere now - and they mostly all work now!
I'm sure Usk does have a small negative effect on sales to some buyers. But as I pointed out, national election referendum results demonstrate their is at least an equal number of potential buyers that probably quietly adore Musk and his little outbursts...
Our next car purchase 100% wouldn't be another Tesla. This is despite the fact the soon to be updated Y will be the 'best' family EV by a country mile based on practicality, price, performance. Musk has totally lost it as a sensible human being, some sales person told me once his approach to sales was most people buy based of trust and mutual respect, Musk (and therefore Tesla) have little left of either for me.
The Nismo Nissan Ayria is probably our next car, it more expensive, less practical, slower, less efficient than even the current Y, but it's not got a Tesla badge on.
The Nismo Nissan Ayria is probably our next car, it more expensive, less practical, slower, less efficient than even the current Y, but it's not got a Tesla badge on.
gangzoom said:
Our next car purchase 100% wouldn't be another Tesla. This is despite the fact the soon to be updated Y will be the 'best' family EV by a country mile based on practicality, price, performance. Musk has totally lost it as a sensible human being, some sales person told me once his approach to sales was most people buy based of trust and mutual respect, Musk (and therefore Tesla) have little left of either for me.
The Nismo Nissan Ayria is probably our next car, it more expensive, less practical, slower, less efficient than even the current Y, but it's not got a Tesla badge on.
Aren't some of the Chinese or Korean options closer to Tesla than the Nissan?The Nismo Nissan Ayria is probably our next car, it more expensive, less practical, slower, less efficient than even the current Y, but it's not got a Tesla badge on.
gangzoom said:
Our next car purchase 100% wouldn't be another Tesla. This is despite the fact the soon to be updated Y will be the 'best' family EV by a country mile based on practicality, price, performance. Musk has totally lost it as a sensible human being, some sales person told me once his approach to sales was most people buy based of trust and mutual respect, Musk (and therefore Tesla) have little left of either for me.
The Nismo Nissan Ayria is probably our next car, it more expensive, less practical, slower, less efficient than even the current Y, but it's not got a Tesla badge on.
The expression “cut off your nose to spite your face” springs to mind The Nismo Nissan Ayria is probably our next car, it more expensive, less practical, slower, less efficient than even the current Y, but it's not got a Tesla badge on.
skwdenyer said:
gangzoom said:
Our next car purchase 100% wouldn't be another Tesla. This is despite the fact the soon to be updated Y will be the 'best' family EV by a country mile based on practicality, price, performance. Musk has totally lost it as a sensible human being, some sales person told me once his approach to sales was most people buy based of trust and mutual respect, Musk (and therefore Tesla) have little left of either for me.
The Nismo Nissan Ayria is probably our next car, it more expensive, less practical, slower, less efficient than even the current Y, but it's not got a Tesla badge on.
The expression “cut off your nose to spite your face” springs to mind The Nismo Nissan Ayria is probably our next car, it more expensive, less practical, slower, less efficient than even the current Y, but it's not got a Tesla badge on.
Gone fishing said:
skwdenyer said:
gangzoom said:
Our next car purchase 100% wouldn't be another Tesla. This is despite the fact the soon to be updated Y will be the 'best' family EV by a country mile based on practicality, price, performance. Musk has totally lost it as a sensible human being, some sales person told me once his approach to sales was most people buy based of trust and mutual respect, Musk (and therefore Tesla) have little left of either for me.
The Nismo Nissan Ayria is probably our next car, it more expensive, less practical, slower, less efficient than even the current Y, but it's not got a Tesla badge on.
The expression “cut off your nose to spite your face” springs to mind The Nismo Nissan Ayria is probably our next car, it more expensive, less practical, slower, less efficient than even the current Y, but it's not got a Tesla badge on.
My brother in law has a MY and it's a great car for the lease cost, also extremely practical. But at the end of the day, it's like sitting in a sparsely furnished ox cart. It actually does clatter as it goes down bumpy back roads.
None of this has anything to do with musk or Tesla fandom.. American cars have always tended to feel a bit crap compared to European cars, to European (+UK) drivers.
TheDeuce said:
Gone fishing said:
skwdenyer said:
gangzoom said:
Our next car purchase 100% wouldn't be another Tesla. This is despite the fact the soon to be updated Y will be the 'best' family EV by a country mile based on practicality, price, performance. Musk has totally lost it as a sensible human being, some sales person told me once his approach to sales was most people buy based of trust and mutual respect, Musk (and therefore Tesla) have little left of either for me.
The Nismo Nissan Ayria is probably our next car, it more expensive, less practical, slower, less efficient than even the current Y, but it's not got a Tesla badge on.
The expression “cut off your nose to spite your face” springs to mind The Nismo Nissan Ayria is probably our next car, it more expensive, less practical, slower, less efficient than even the current Y, but it's not got a Tesla badge on.
My brother in law has a MY and it's a great car for the lease cost, also extremely practical. But at the end of the day, it's like sitting in a sparsely furnished ox cart. It actually does clatter as it goes down bumpy back roads.
None of this has anything to do with musk or Tesla fandom.. American cars have always tended to feel a bit crap compared to European cars, to European (+UK) drivers.
gangzoom said:
This is despite the fact the soon to be updated Y will be the 'best' family EV by a country mile based on practicality, price, performance
To each their own re interiors. I can't stand a great modern car interiors - masses of over-style buttons, ledges, nooks, crannies, fripperies that I simply don't want to pay for, and which are usually less effective than something simpler.So many button-based interfaces these days are also an ergonomic disaster. And in an era of software-defined vehicles, the Apple approach (remember Steve Jobs' introduction to the iPhone - you can't go back and add another button) has a lot going for it compared to hardware buttons.
I'm sure there are features on some BMWs, say, that exceed those of Teslas (they should be at the prices being charged by the Germans). To get a comparable car to a Model Y (at £45k) from BMW, you need to get at least an iX3 (which still doesn't have as much space), and you'll pay £20k (or, to put it in context, 45%) more.
And as for lease costs, on 5k miles pa and with £4k down, that iX3 will cost you £680 per month. A Model Y, by comparison, can be had for £200 per month less on a comparable basis.
Of course, if you *can* afford a BMW, and *want* to spend all that money, fill your boots. But there are some rather odd apples-vs-oranges comparisons going on, it seems to me.
TheDeuce said:
gangzoom said:
Our next car purchase 100% wouldn't be another Tesla. This is despite the fact the soon to be updated Y will be the 'best' family EV by a country mile based on practicality, price, performance. Musk has totally lost it as a sensible human being, some sales person told me once his approach to sales was most people buy based of trust and mutual respect, Musk (and therefore Tesla) have little left of either for me.
The Nismo Nissan Ayria is probably our next car, it more expensive, less practical, slower, less efficient than even the current Y, but it's not got a Tesla badge on.
Aren't some of the Chinese or Korean options closer to Tesla than the Nissan?The Nismo Nissan Ayria is probably our next car, it more expensive, less practical, slower, less efficient than even the current Y, but it's not got a Tesla badge on.
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