Cybertruck LMFAO

Cybertruck LMFAO

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Gone fishing

7,255 posts

125 months

Wednesday 17th April
quotequote all
They’ve already said it’s not coming to Europe in its current form, it can’t meet the regulations.

As for testing before shipping, that’s what customers are for in the Tesla world

Ken_Code

929 posts

3 months

Wednesday 17th April
quotequote all
Gone fishing said:
They’ve already said it’s not coming to Europe in its current form, it can’t meet the regulations.

As for testing before shipping, that’s what customers are for in the Tesla world
This is exactly what Tesla said to me in legal discussions. My Model S was apparently an “experimental vehicle” for which it was not reasonable to expect reliability in line with a production car.

skwdenyer

16,691 posts

241 months

Thursday 18th April
quotequote all
loudlashadjuster said:
ChocolateFrog said:
Apparently there's a recall on those wheel covers because they're eating the tyres.
It seems they've also stopped selling them because the accelerator pedal covers are sliding off and getting trapped under the footwell trim, causing the bloody things to keep accelerating.



https://arstechnica.com/cars/2024/04/tesla-stops-c...

I wish them well dealing with that particular issue. The NHTSA has a long history of going after manufacturers hard for this.

I leave it to the reader to contemplate why it seems that the US seems to struggle so much more with this kind of problem than the rest of the world...
Not every car company gets everything right. Toyota - with some history of making cars… - had to issue a recall in 2010 over throttle pedals sticking open.

That image looks like a manufacturing defect, perhaps anomalous surface prep prior to adhesive application or even a bad batch of adhesive itself. Should be rapidly resolvable. In an ideal world, there’d be a secondary mechanical fixing, but there’s no reason adhesive alone shouldn’t be fine for that job.

Pit Pony

8,801 posts

122 months

Thursday 18th April
quotequote all
skwdenyer said:
loudlashadjuster said:
ChocolateFrog said:
Apparently there's a recall on those wheel covers because they're eating the tyres.
It seems they've also stopped selling them because the accelerator pedal covers are sliding off and getting trapped under the footwell trim, causing the bloody things to keep accelerating.



https://arstechnica.com/cars/2024/04/tesla-stops-c...

I wish them well dealing with that particular issue. The NHTSA has a long history of going after manufacturers hard for this.

I leave it to the reader to contemplate why it seems that the US seems to struggle so much more with this kind of problem than the rest of the world...
Not every car company gets everything right. Toyota - with some history of making cars… - had to issue a recall in 2010 over throttle pedals sticking open.

That image looks like a manufacturing defect, perhaps anomalous surface prep prior to adhesive application or even a bad batch of adhesive itself. Should be rapidly resolvable. In an ideal world, there’d be a secondary mechanical fixing, but there’s no reason adhesive alone shouldn’t be fine for that job.
I've been an Chartered Engineer for 35 years more recently ocusing on Design For Reliability, Design for Assembly, Design for Six Sigma, and more recently delivering training and coaching, in Design and Process FMEA. I have also done alot of work as a six sigma black belt on assembly issues, and first pass yield.
I am constantly amazed at the lack of attention to detail from other Engineers, assumptions, and optimism and thinking in functional silos.
If you track engineering changes, in some companies, it rises exponentially in the month before and the 6 months after job 1.
And most of the issues are things that a pessimist might naturally assume could happen.
At various times in my career, I've visited Vauxhall at Ellesmere Port and Mini at Cowley.
I was driven across site by another manufacturing engineer in an unregistered pre-production trial mk4 astra Estate and an April 2001 built Mini one. Because they built 100s of cars to prove the assembly lines, but because many suppliers were shipping pre-prod post prototype parts that weren't 100% right, they wouldn't register these. Most got scrapped.
I once oversaw the Ramp up test on a column switch assembly line for the Renault Clio. We Supplier them free.
Renault built them all into cars to prove their assembly line and then scrapped them.

My understanding is that Tesla are worse than any other automotive manufacturer. They just ship what they build, right or wrong.

And software reliability? No. Reliability failures suggests something changes, with time or use. No. Software is either right or wrong. If you haven't found all the bugs, and haven't considered all the variation on inputs and outputs to it, and all the Spurious or inaccurate signals from sensors, then you just did it wrong. Like a mechanical designer clipping a wiring loom to this convenient pipe. What do you mean it's hot?

skwdenyer

16,691 posts

241 months

Thursday 18th April
quotequote all
Pit Pony said:
I've been an Chartered Engineer for 35 years more recently ocusing on Design For Reliability, Design for Assembly, Design for Six Sigma, and more recently delivering training and coaching, in Design and Process FMEA. I have also done alot of work as a six sigma black belt on assembly issues, and first pass yield.
I am constantly amazed at the lack of attention to detail from other Engineers, assumptions, and optimism and thinking in functional silos.
If you track engineering changes, in some companies, it rises exponentially in the month before and the 6 months after job 1.
And most of the issues are things that a pessimist might naturally assume could happen.
At various times in my career, I've visited Vauxhall at Ellesmere Port and Mini at Cowley.
I was driven across site by another manufacturing engineer in an unregistered pre-production trial mk4 astra Estate and an April 2001 built Mini one. Because they built 100s of cars to prove the assembly lines, but because many suppliers were shipping pre-prod post prototype parts that weren't 100% right, they wouldn't register these. Most got scrapped.
I once oversaw the Ramp up test on a column switch assembly line for the Renault Clio. We Supplier them free.
Renault built them all into cars to prove their assembly line and then scrapped them.

My understanding is that Tesla are worse than any other automotive manufacturer. They just ship what they build, right or wrong.

And software reliability? No. Reliability failures suggests something changes, with time or use. No. Software is either right or wrong. If you haven't found all the bugs, and haven't considered all the variation on inputs and outputs to it, and all the Spurious or inaccurate signals from sensors, then you just did it wrong. Like a mechanical designer clipping a wiring loom to this convenient pipe. What do you mean it's hot?
As a Mechanical Engineer by background (and a personal deep interest in TQM and W Edwards Deming) but with nothing like the career in it you’ve had, I don’t disagree.

But all of the ISO 9000 & Six Sigma in the world doesn’t create perfect outcomes. In fact I think sometimes process becomes the proxy for achievement (which reminds me of someone I interviewed for a role who proudly told me he wasn’t a project manager, he was a PRINCE 2 practitioner; he didn’t get the job).

The number of vehicles from multinationals such as, say, PSA with systemic problems is surprisingly high. Perhaps they don’t turn up in month 1, but major failures of critical systems are really not that uncommon. Recalls are common. Owners’ forums are full of lists of frequent failure points. Some are deadly - remember the GM ignition switch debacle that claimed over 100 lives?

At least with software (and - thanks to Tesla’s lead - OTA updates) and software-defined features there’s a plausible route to rapid mitigation / fix.

But I think you’re perhaps optimistic about the software side of things from others. Just look at, say, VW’s terribly botched launch of the ID.3 with mostly unfit software.

Remember when Toyota had to mass recall the Prius to fix safety-critical engine software bugs? Or Nissan’s X-Trail recall to fix automatic braking software that emergency-stopped cars in the middle of traffic for no reason (but at massive risk)? Or Toyota again with the electronic throttle software that’s reckoned to have killed 90+ people in accidents? That was a 2m+ recall. 1.4m Jeeps had to be recalled over actionable wireless exploits. And so on and so forth.

Because OTA updates simply didn’t feature until Tesla pioneered it, most manufacturers have tried hard to resist expensive recalls. But quietly updating software at services has been common as a way to try to keep a lid on things - so long as you stay in the franchise network, of course…

Tesla may be worse than others; I don’t know. But their approach has ushered in a world in which fixes *can* be deployed rapidly, safety systems incrementally improved, and the number of mechanical failure points has been radically reduced.

It’s also worth praising Tesla’s taking software in-house, rather than simply integrating “black box” tier 1 modules. If there is a problem, they’re accountable. Across all those modules from so many vendors, modern cars can easily clock up tens of millions of lines of code, without any single design authority or QA.

On balance, it seems, Tesla have been a significant force for good in the regard. But they’re clearly not perfect. And I say that as someone who doesn’t own a Tesla, since they simply don’t suit my requirements right now. I’m no fanboi smile

This latest Tesla accelerator issue is clearly a problem, and does indeed expose a lack of control somewhere. I don’t for one moment doubt your professional view that they’re not as as robust as others’. I just wonder if a lot of the rest of the industry is simply not so scrutinised? If Tesla had launched the ID.3’s software they’d have been crucified (just look at Fisker); yet somehow VW got a pass in the media and amongst the public. And what’s worse? Any fix by VW still requires a dealer visit…

LivLL

10,920 posts

198 months

Thursday 18th April
quotequote all
loudlashadjuster said:
ChocolateFrog said:
Apparently there's a recall on those wheel covers because they're eating the tyres.
It seems they've also stopped selling them because the accelerator pedal covers are sliding off and getting trapped under the footwell trim, causing the bloody things to keep accelerating.



https://arstechnica.com/cars/2024/04/tesla-stops-c...

I wish them well dealing with that particular issue. The NHTSA has a long history of going after manufacturers hard for this.

I leave it to the reader to contemplate why it seems that the US seems to struggle so much more with this kind of problem than the rest of the world...
Wouldn't this be a fairly simple and quick thing to resolve. Why has a company that prides itself on speed and efficiency take so long to fix a pedal cover?

skwdenyer

16,691 posts

241 months

Thursday 18th April
quotequote all
LivLL said:
Wouldn't this be a fairly simple and quick thing to resolve. Why has a company that prides itself on speed and efficiency take so long to fix a pedal cover?
What is “so long” in this context? When did it become a known issue?

CivicDuties

4,922 posts

31 months

Thursday 18th April
quotequote all
Found one:


Downward

3,662 posts

104 months

Thursday 18th April
quotequote all
Gone fishing said:
They’ve already said it’s not coming to Europe in its current form, it can’t meet the regulations.

As for testing before shipping, that’s what customers are for in the Tesla world
Surprised it’s not been spotted in London yet !

LivLL

10,920 posts

198 months

Thursday 18th April
quotequote all
skwdenyer said:
What is “so long” in this context? When did it become a known issue?
First crash was Dec last year and the Hollywood hotel crash around six weeks ago. Hard to tell how long Tesla have known as they have no PR team, don’t tell customers and won’t speak to the media.

They’ve halted deliveries so I’d guess it’s affected all built so far.

Tesla pride themselves on safety so I wouldn’t want them to rush a fix but for a simple pedal cover a la Demon Tweeks catalogue, it should be a simple solution not requiring a complete halt to deliveries over several weeks.

swisstoni

17,150 posts

280 months

Thursday 18th April
quotequote all
There’s YouTubes of other Tesla models flying through urban areas looking like they are absolutely floored, and then crashing. Fatally into the back of a bus in one I recall.

Downward

3,662 posts

104 months

Thursday 18th April
quotequote all
CivicDuties said:
Found one:

Is that the upgraded Tent version ?

skwdenyer

16,691 posts

241 months

Thursday 18th April
quotequote all
LivLL said:
skwdenyer said:
What is “so long” in this context? When did it become a known issue?
First crash was Dec last year and the Hollywood hotel crash around six weeks ago. Hard to tell how long Tesla have known as they have no PR team, don’t tell customers and won’t speak to the media.

They’ve halted deliveries so I’d guess it’s affected all built so far.

Tesla pride themselves on safety so I wouldn’t want them to rush a fix but for a simple pedal cover a la Demon Tweeks catalogue, it should be a simple solution not requiring a complete halt to deliveries over several weeks.
Thanks. Missed the Dec crash.

LivLL

10,920 posts

198 months

Friday 19th April
quotequote all
Might have to exclude the Dec one, looks like a kid in another car hit it although all the reports said it was driving autonomously despite the fact the Cybertruk doesn’t have autopilot installed yet.

Looks like the fix may be in place now.

durbster

10,300 posts

223 months

Saturday 20th April
quotequote all
The interesting part about the recall is fewer than 4,000 vehicles have been recalled so that must be how many they've shipped so far, right?

No doubt a chunk of those have been given away for promotion and marketing too so that looks like an awfully low number for something that's been in production since December, and received more hype and news coverage than pretty much any other vehicle in the last 12 months.

They were never going to sell in the kind of numbers Musk claimed, obviously, but that seems waaaaay below what I would have expected.

Is this because they can't build them fast enough, or were the million pre-orders or whatever it was not actually real?

Edited by durbster on Saturday 20th April 10:39

loudlashadjuster

5,196 posts

185 months

Saturday 20th April
quotequote all
A large part will be it was announced in a low interest rate environment and people were happy to sign up because finance was cheap.

By launch time though things were a lot different and many of those same people will have now looked at the costs and gone “nah”.

Mezzanine

9,252 posts

220 months

Saturday 20th April
quotequote all
I doubt the production line was anywhere near full speed anyway.

skwdenyer

16,691 posts

241 months

Saturday 20th April
quotequote all
loudlashadjuster said:
A large part will be it was announced in a low interest rate environment and people were happy to sign up because finance was cheap.

By launch time though things were a lot different and many of those same people will have now looked at the costs and gone “nah”.
Also the pricing is rather different, and they've launched with the highest-cost variants. The dual-motor starts at $80k. That was touted at $50k in Nov 2019 when reservations began. Inflation hasn't been lovely in the USA, but per US CPI that would be a $61k vehicle today.

So in real terms, that's a 31% uplift. I can see that having a *big* impact on the conversion of reservations to orders. Everybody wondered at the reveal how they could make it so cheaply; the answer is, they couldn't.

Gone fishing

7,255 posts

125 months

Saturday 20th April
quotequote all
I doubt it has anything to do with the price being higher than originally stated or interest rates at the moment, a couple have been sold privately and all at a premium to the list price, I think as high as $100k over list in one case. They're also only delivering to a small number of states at the moment, There are still enough people who are vain enough to want one to be the bad (or dumb?) ass on the school run.

Production constraint will be the current issue.

They've also fixed the issue now anyway - it required an extra screw.

LivLL

10,920 posts

198 months

Sunday 21st April
quotequote all
Despite having a bulletin, a drill alignment tool and a simple fix owners are still expected to find this acceptable - on a vehicle that cost north of $100k. Laughable





I’m wondering where it’s all gone wrong at Tesla. Clearly they have some fantastic Engineers and designers and a huge pile of cash reserves but something is rotten there and I can quite put my finger on what it is.