Alpine A110 to be axed?

[Kolbenkopp]

springfan62 said:

Can we just correct one thing, the rumour going round is that Dieppe will close, not that the A110 will cease production.

And these site closing rumours list a couple of Renault factories in France. Also, Renault is partly state owned (15%) and relies on a EUR 5 bn bail out that's been agreed to. Which means, for better or worse, the French government has a lot of influence over decision making at Renault. And the government doesn't want French sites closed -- if it is avoidable.

So long story short, I think there's a chance Dieppe can carry on. And an even bigger chance that Alpine can continue.

[Prestonese]

rockin said:

blueg33 said:

a. Weak marketing
b. Wrong badge
c. Marmite looks

a. Feeble excuse
b. Feeble excuse
c. Feeble excuse

I'm with Lexington59 - if they could have done a cheaper entry model to get punters into the showroom they might have been in with a chance of selling more cars. It's all about that vital product/price combination.

You've both missed the point entirely here. Alpine, as mentioned several times above, only targeted around 3000 sales per year. Those were their targets and none of us know the full details to determine if there was a desire to sell more or whether this is a "success" (however you want to define it) or not. The UK was never intended to be a focus but sales are actually doing reasonably well in Germany, France, Japan and other parts of Asia. Car manufacturers are not charities (though you do wonder sometimes given what's been going on and post 2008 bailouts) and I don't doubt the pricing is set by Alpine to meet their budget requirements - we can only guess what these are but they aren't going to give this car away cheaply given the development costs (which also explains why the marketing may have suffered).

If either of you have spent time driving the car, you will find that there is probably not that much more they could strip or remove. They could introduce a base model with smaller wheels (they do that already but buyers seem to spec in the lightweight Fuchs), brakes (they do that already but most people upgrade to the bigger discs), seats (they are already one of the lightest in the market), remove the aircon (but everyone will just spec it back in), flat paint (everyone seems to want it in blue) and maybe ditch the stereo and nav system (only thing I can see buyers doing - it's a bloody awful system).

The Alpine isn't expensive for what it is and a similar Porche, Toyota Supra, M2, Audi TTRS are all in the same price bracket. Other than the Toyota, you can easily add another 15-20% to the price of the car for the others. With Porsche especially, any time a "lightweight" version is introduced, they invariably charge more and you cannot help but feel it's just a cynical marketing ploy.

We've been through all this before but posters never seem to tire of raising criticisms of price and sales - the other common debate is the manual stick and we are all bored to death of that discussion. It makes me wonder if people care or pay attention to what others are posting.

It's easy to knock an outsider brand but I just don't get why people spend so much energy being critical of this car and what's going on at Alpine. They are mainly trying to be different and addressing pockets of the enthusiast market. They should be applauded for a having a go against all the odds especially given how cynical and clinical the rest of the car market is. In isolation, the car is fantastic. You can argue all you like about branding and marketing etc but I think it's almost irrelevant if you are a real enthusiast.

Full disclaimer - I have owned and an Alpine and now own a Cayman R (yes, I have been swayed by the cynical marketing too!). I won't bore you with the detailed reasons why but I've always wanted to own and get to know both cars but never had space for both at the same time. Having experienced both now, the Alpine is significantly more fun than the R and definitely more civilised and comfortable on long trips. That said, it's not clinical like the Cayman. The Cayman has other attributes and the benefit of development but comparing the two makes it more astonishing what Alpine has achieved. Going on a B road drive with a couple of Alpine owners a few months ago, I couldn't help but sense they were having a lot more fun.

Oh, and to those who think French cars are bad, I've owned 5 cars built by the Renault group and they have all been incredibly reliable. All the German cars I've owned have had numerous problems. I don't get why people insist premium brands are superior in that regard.

Edited by Prestonese on Thursday 21st May 18:25

[nickfrog]

Lexington59 said:

They sold 171 cars in the UK in 2019 and are probably axing it.

If that's not a sales flop (UK is 2nd largest car market in Europe after Germany), then I don't know what is.

Why do you have so much hatred for a car? You seem to be looking forward to it not being produced. Surely more choice is better than less choice.

[nickfrog]

Lexington59 said:

Who that then? Sports car owners ?

There is no agreed definition of a sports car. To me a road car regularly used on track is far more of a sports car than a road only car. Sport relates to circuit use for me, as in driving as a sport.

[limpsfield]

The OP who brought this tragedy to the attention of PH drives a Volvo and a Citroen.

That is not meant as a dig.

Car manufacturers don't profit from cars that many admire, but don't actually buy.

[maz8062]

Prestonese said:

rockin said:

blueg33 said:

a. Weak marketing
b. Wrong badge
c. Marmite looks

a. Feeble excuse
b. Feeble excuse
c. Feeble excuse

I'm with Lexington59 - if they could have done a cheaper entry model to get punters into the showroom they might have been in with a chance of selling more cars. It's all about that vital product/price combination.

You've both missed the point entirely here. Alpine, as mentioned several times above, only targeted around 3000 sales per year. Those were their targets and none of us know the full details to determine if there was a desire to sell more or whether this is a "success" (however you want to define it) or not. The UK was never intended to be a focus but sales are actually doing reasonably well in Germany, France, Japan and other parts of Asia. Car manufacturers are not charities (though you do wonder sometimes given what's been going on and post 2008 bailouts) and I don't doubt the pricing is set by Alpine to meet their budget requirements - we can only guess what these are but they aren't going to give this car away cheaply given the development costs (which also explains why the marketing may have suffered).

The Alpine isn't expensive for what it is and a similar Porche, Toyota Supra, M2, Audi TTRS are all in the same price bracket. Other than the Toyota, you can easily add another 15-20% to the price of the car for the others. With Porsche especially, any time a "lightweight" version is introduced, they invariably charge more and you cannot help but feel it's just a cynical marketing ploy.

Good points and well put, but the highlighted part above is where I would argue that they got their marketing wrong. Most people do not view the Alpine as a competitor to one of those cars. I don't and I'm a petrol head. People don't know what the car is. Yes you could argue that they wanted to sell the cars in small numbers, make it niche, but we have Lotus for that and I'm not sure they're selling many of them.

If they're genuinely thinking of canning the model, it can't be because it was a success regardless of how many sales were targeted.

[anonymous-user]

maz8062 said:

If they're genuinely thinking of canning the model, it can't be because it was a success regardless of how many sales were targeted.

Yes, it's as simple as that. Sports car enthusiasts - who are the relevant market - know about these kinds of cars without needing to be spoon-fed a fancy marketing campaign. They buy cars if they want them and don't buy them if they don't.

Truth is that these days almost everyone wants an SUV and genuine roadgoing sports cars are only a small part of the market.

To my mind a track car is something completely different, selling into a really tiny market - even if you can stick a number plate on them. KTM X-Bow might be a good example.

Don't get me started on SUVs with a "Sport" badge...

[nickfrog]

rockin said:

maz8062 said:

If they're genuinely thinking of canning the model, it can't be because it was a success regardless of how many sales were targeted.

Yes, it's as simple as that. Sports car enthusiasts - who are the relevant market - know about these kinds of cars without needing to be spoon-fed a fancy marketing campaign. They buy cars if they want them and don't buy them if they don't.

Truth is that these days almost everyone wants an SUV and genuine roadgoing sports cars are only a small part of the market.

Yes sure. Most car enthusiasts I know who have a road going sports car also have a SUV though. They work well together actually. Different tools for different jobs.

[CABC]

maz8062 said:

Good points and well put, but the highlighted part above is where I would argue that they got their marketing wrong. Most people do not view the Alpine as a competitor to one of those cars. I don't and I'm a petrol head. People don't know what the car is.

where would you position it?
i really can't see many people cross-shopping with a TTRS.
given the huge coverage and praise the A110 got, i wonder how many likely customers didn't know it?

[blueg33]

Prestonese said:

rockin said:

blueg33 said:

a. Weak marketing
b. Wrong badge
c. Marmite looks

a. Feeble excuse
b. Feeble excuse
c. Feeble excuse

I'm with Lexington59 - if they could have done a cheaper entry model to get punters into the showroom they might have been in with a chance of selling more cars. It's all about that vital product/price combination.

You've both missed the point entirely here. Alpine, as mentioned several times above, only targeted around 3000 sales per year. Those were their targets and none of us know the full details to determine if there was a desire to sell more or whether this is a "success" (however you want to define it) or not. The UK was never intended to be a focus but sales are actually doing reasonably well in Germany, France, Japan and other parts of Asia. Car manufacturers are not charities (though you do wonder sometimes given what's been going on and post 2008 bailouts) and I don't doubt the pricing is set by Alpine to meet their budget requirements - we can only guess what these are but they aren't going to give this car away cheaply given the development costs (which also explains why the marketing may have suffered).

If either of you have spent time driving the car, you will find that there is probably not that much more they could strip or remove. They could introduce a base model with smaller wheels (they do that already but buyers seem to spec in the lightweight Fuchs), brakes (they do that already but most people upgrade to the bigger discs), seats (they are already one of the lightest in the market), remove the aircon (but everyone will just spec it back in), flat paint (everyone seems to want it in blue) and maybe ditch the stereo and nav system (only thing I can see buyers doing - it's a bloody awful system).

The Alpine isn't expensive for what it is and a similar Porche, Toyota Supra, M2, Audi TTRS are all in the same price bracket. Other than the Toyota, you can easily add another 15-20% to the price of the car for the others. With Porsche especially, any time a "lightweight" version is introduced, they invariably charge more and you cannot help but feel it's just a cynical marketing ploy.

We've been through all this before but posters never seem to tire of raising criticisms of price and sales - the other common debate is the manual stick and we are all bored to death of that discussion. It makes me wonder if people care or pay attention to what others are posting.

It's easy to knock an outsider brand but I just don't get why people spend so much energy being critical of this car and what's going on at Alpine. They are mainly trying to be different and addressing pockets of the enthusiast market. They should be applauded for a having a go against all the odds especially given how cynical and clinical the rest of the car market is. In isolation, the car is fantastic. You can argue all you like about branding and marketing etc but I think it's almost irrelevant if you are a real enthusiast.

Full disclaimer - I have owned and an Alpine and now own a Cayman R (yes, I have been swayed by the cynical marketing too!). I won't bore you with the detailed reasons why but I've always wanted to own and get to know both cars but never had space for both at the same time. Having experienced both now, the Alpine is significantly more fun than the R and definitely more civilised and comfortable on long trips. That said, it's not clinical like the Cayman. The Cayman has other attributes and the benefit of development but comparing the two makes it more astonishing what Alpine has achieved. Going on a B road drive with a couple of Alpine owners a few months ago, I couldn't help but sense they were having a lot more fun.

Oh, and to those who think French cars are bad, I've owned 5 cars built by the Renault group and they have all been incredibly reliable. All the German cars I've owned have had numerous problems. I don't get why people insist premium brands are superior in that regard.

Edited by Prestonese on Thursday 21st May 18:25

You missed my point, probably because I didn’t quote everything.

I have driven the Alpine a few times, I cancelled my order for a premier because it was late and the Evora I wanted came up.

Those who put the car down almost certainly haven’t driven one, and are missing out. Their loss

But I can see that the badge is an issue judging by what people say on these forums, any none enthusiasts that may buy a Cayman or a TT probably have zero awareness as the marketing has been minimal.

[Prestonese]

blueg33 said:

You missed my point, probably because I didn’t quote everything.

I have driven the Alpine a few times, I cancelled my order for a premier because it was late and the Evora I wanted came up.

Those who put the car down almost certainly haven’t driven one, and are missing out. Their loss

But I can see that the badge is an issue judging by what people say on these forums, any none enthusiasts that may buy a Cayman or a TT probably have zero awareness as the marketing has been minimal.

That wasn't aimed at you. I was referring to the other two comments - unfortunately, I think you got caught up in the crossfire!

[JxJ Jr.]

JxJ Jr. said:

The A110 is, or was, supposed to be the first of a range.

springfan62 said:

Alpine was always more than an investment in one car, it was intended to be the start of a series of premium products...

The above seem to be something that a lot of people aren't considering.

Whether it's better or worse or has sold more or less than a Cayman/Z4/Supra/etc., may not be relevant if that isn't what Renault's aim is. Is it supposed to out-Porsche Porsche or is it supposed to sprinkle magic dust on lesser Renault products allowing them to be sold at a premium?

[DonkeyApple]

Victim of bling society.

Small cars are for poor people who smell of wee.

Unheard of brand isn’t going to cut it at the bar when looking to buy a couple of mohitos and leave some Pete Burns lookalike with a face like a decorators radio.

It’s not a Porsche or a Tesla. It’s never going to matter how good the product is, it’s not going to give small children a boner. Zero peado power.

If you mention in public that your car is called Pure, Leg End then everyone is going to assume you’re a purveyor of the pink oboe and anyone who has anything that is a Premier Edition is clearly a trombonist of extreme dedication.

We slightly older car enthusiasts may have appreciated it for its ability and the brand bit to the people who buy expensive sports cars in large numbers it’s a monumental turd sitting in their mother’s front room. It has a name no influencer has ever heard of, no bottle rat has ever heard of it, Fat Sharon on reception doesn’t understand it costs 50 large and at absolutely no point does it announce that you’ll buy shed loads of mohitos in the vain hope of ruining some pig on stilts by the bins outside a regional night club.

Or, to put things more briefly, it’s not a Boxster or a Model 3.

[maz8062]

CABC said:

maz8062 said:

Good points and well put, but the highlighted part above is where I would argue that they got their marketing wrong. Most people do not view the Alpine as a competitor to one of those cars. I don't and I'm a petrol head. People don't know what the car is.

where would you position it?
i really can't see many people cross-shopping with a TTRS.
given the huge coverage and praise the A110 got, i wonder how many likely customers didn't know it?

Those cars have V6 twin turbo’s or in the case of the TTRS - a 5 cylinder twin turbo. The Alpine has a 1.8 Turbo and costs over £50k. No matter how good it is, the competition at that price point is fierce and the badge will come into people’s thinking. If I wanted a 4 pot and had £50k to spend, there’s the A45 AMG that i’d consider over the Alpine.

[cerb4.5lee]

DonkeyApple said:

Victim of bling society.

Small cars are for poor people who smell of wee.

Unheard of brand isn’t going to cut it at the bar when looking to buy a couple of mohitos and leave some Pete Burns lookalike with a face like a decorators radio.

It’s not a Porsche or a Tesla. It’s never going to matter how good the product is, it’s not going to give small children a boner. Zero peado power.

If you mention in public that your car is called Pure, Leg End then everyone is going to assume you’re a purveyor of the pink oboe and anyone who has anything that is a Premier Edition is clearly a trombonist of extreme dedication.

We slightly older car enthusiasts may have appreciated it for its ability and the brand bit to the people who buy expensive sports cars in large numbers it’s a monumental turd sitting in their mother’s front room. It has a name no influencer has ever heard of, no bottle rat has ever heard of it, Fat Sharon on reception doesn’t understand it costs 50 large and at absolutely no point does it announce that you’ll buy shed loads of mohitos in the vain hope of ruining some pig on stilts by the bins outside a regional night club.

Or, to put things more briefly, it’s not a Boxster or a Model 3.

Love it!

[anonymous-user]

nickfrog said:

Most car enthusiasts I know who have a road going sports car also have a SUV though.

Unfortunately that small handful of so-called enthusiasts doesn't provide a realistic customer base for any car manufacturer.

Some may like to point and sneer but Mazda and others are actually in business and actually selling real cars to real people.

[anonymous-user]

DonkeyApple said:

We slightly older car enthusiasts...…

May heaven preserve us from this sort of geriatric tosh!

[DonkeyApple]

nickfrog said:

Yes sure. Most car enthusiasts I know who have a road going sports car also have a SUV though. They work well together actually. Different tools for different jobs.

I’ve run the pair for 25 years. It’s a combo that works really well. And most people I know who have an impractical car or bike will have a Rangie or similar for the practical family stuff.

In fact, I’d wager that there aren’t that many owners of expensive impractical sports cars who don’t have a van for all the other stuff.

[Prestonese]

DonkeyApple said:

Victim of bling society.

Small cars are for poor people who smell of wee.

Unheard of brand isn’t going to cut it at the bar when looking to buy a couple of mohitos and leave some Pete Burns lookalike with a face like a decorators radio.

It’s not a Porsche or a Tesla. It’s never going to matter how good the product is, it’s not going to give small children a boner. Zero peado power.

If you mention in public that your car is called Pure, Leg End then everyone is going to assume you’re a purveyor of the pink oboe and anyone who has anything that is a Premier Edition is clearly a trombonist of extreme dedication.

We slightly older car enthusiasts may have appreciated it for its ability and the brand bit to the people who buy expensive sports cars in large numbers it’s a monumental turd sitting in their mother’s front room. It has a name no influencer has ever heard of, no bottle rat has ever heard of it, Fat Sharon on reception doesn’t understand it costs 50 large and at absolutely no point does it announce that you’ll buy shed loads of mohitos in the vain hope of ruining some pig on stilts by the bins outside a regional night club.

Or, to put things more briefly, it’s not a Boxster or a Model 3.

It's pronounced Le Jaaaaaaand actually.

[CABC]

maz8062 said:

Those cars have V6 twin turbo’s or in the case of the TTRS - a 5 cylinder twin turbo. The Alpine has a 1.8 Turbo and costs over £50k. No matter how good it is, the competition at that price point is fierce and the badge will come into people’s thinking. If I wanted a 4 pot and had £50k to spend, there’s the A45 AMG that i’d consider over the Alpine.

for sure, it's about the chassis. so potential buyers probably knew about it from the buzz surrounding its launch.

An A45 is a completely different kettle of worms. a top trumps tin can that appeals to a greater number of people.