RE: INEOS Grenadier prototype | PH Review
Discussion
I'm very interested to see how this actually sells.
The main reason why Land Rover don't build anything like this any more is simply because whichever way the product planners looked at it, the business case just didn't stack up. There was no profit in engineering and building a car on a unique platform in a market that's been gradually shrinking for decades, especially when that market is all but sewn up in most parts of the world by established players.
That's even before considering EU fleet-wide CO2 legislation - there's not a hope that this thing (as engineered now) will be able to meet targets after 2028 when the niche manufacturer derogations cease.
The main reason why Land Rover don't build anything like this any more is simply because whichever way the product planners looked at it, the business case just didn't stack up. There was no profit in engineering and building a car on a unique platform in a market that's been gradually shrinking for decades, especially when that market is all but sewn up in most parts of the world by established players.
That's even before considering EU fleet-wide CO2 legislation - there's not a hope that this thing (as engineered now) will be able to meet targets after 2028 when the niche manufacturer derogations cease.
If it truly is good at what it does and manages to fill a niche that no one else can then it may be a success.
However, shifting 25k units a year of a car with a nearly £50k price tag and with no brand name or history to back it up seems like a big ask, at least in the beginning.
My concern would be whether the company manages to last long enough to support slowly rising sales volumes while people catch on and the product becomes proven.
Interesting car though not really a fan of any completely new vehicle with such high emissions these days, anyway. Seems a bit of an anachronism.
However, shifting 25k units a year of a car with a nearly £50k price tag and with no brand name or history to back it up seems like a big ask, at least in the beginning.
My concern would be whether the company manages to last long enough to support slowly rising sales volumes while people catch on and the product becomes proven.
Interesting car though not really a fan of any completely new vehicle with such high emissions these days, anyway. Seems a bit of an anachronism.
Edited by Elmariachi on Wednesday 23 February 11:05
waynecyclist said:
I am struggling to see it selling well, surely people will just buy a Defender instead.
Agree. Now that we are able to see that the new Defender is a capable and desirable car in its own right, this just looks like an anachronism, and one with a shaky support future in front of it.He gets bored, or the spreadsheets stop making sense for too long and the rug will be pulled, leaving owners with a Saab or Rover. At least the oily bits can be maintained I suppose.
Gareth9702 said:
I write the same comment whenever I read a review of the Grenadier by a journalist who cannot see beyond his own school run. There are many places in the world - including Australia - where a vehicle like this is really needed. Ineos have been very astute in creating a plan for a servicing network in the bush- so overcoming one of Toyota's advantages. The relative simplicity of the mechanicals are a major advantage here. For many it will be a choice at the price suggested between an old Lancdcruiser or a new Grenadier. If it gets a foothold in the market, and everything suggests it will, it will become a best-seller. The Defender is in demand for urban style but is seen as to fragile and unreliable for serious use.
Have you ever been to Australia? Most Aussies live in places very similar to this.
For those that don't the main advantage the old model Land Cruiser has is that it is basic, reliable, easy to fix and parts are easily available. The Grenadier is no less hi tech than the new Defender.
Newarch said:
Have you ever been to Australia? Most Aussies live in places very similar to this.
For those that don't the main advantage the old model Land Cruiser has is that it is basic, reliable, easy to fix and parts are easily available. The Grenadier is no less hi tech than the new Defender.
The chap in the foreground may be ok but how's the neighbour going to ford his pool when he gets bored without a Grenadier? For those that don't the main advantage the old model Land Cruiser has is that it is basic, reliable, easy to fix and parts are easily available. The Grenadier is no less hi tech than the new Defender.
Jokes aside any potential military customers?
Edited by borat52 on Wednesday 23 February 09:02
loudlashadjuster said:
waynecyclist said:
I am struggling to see it selling well, surely people will just buy a Defender instead.
Agree. Now that we are able to see that the new Defender is a capable and desirable car in its own right, this just looks like an anachronism, and one with a shaky support future in front of it.He gets bored, or the spreadsheets stop making sense for too long and the rug will be pulled, leaving owners with a Saab or Rover. At least the oily bits can be maintained I suppose.
LR need to release a 130 and 130 crew cab option, then I think they have all bases covered.
Gareth9702 said:
I write the same comment whenever I read a review of the Grenadier by a journalist who cannot see beyond his own school run. There are many places in the world - including Australia - where a vehicle like this is really needed. Ineos have been very astute in creating a plan for a servicing network in the bush- so overcoming one of Toyota's advantages. The relative simplicity of the mechanicals are a major advantage here. For many it will be a choice at the price suggested between an old Lancdcruiser or a new Grenadier. If it gets a foothold in the market, and everything suggests it will, it will become a best-seller. The Defender is in demand for urban style but is seen as to fragile and unreliable for serious use.
But the Grenadier has a latest technology BMW engine. Surely you will need BMW diagnostic equipment to evaluate error codes and it will take more than a spanner and screw driver to fix. Or are we saying this is common for "network in the bush"?leef44 said:
Gareth9702 said:
I write the same comment whenever I read a review of the Grenadier by a journalist who cannot see beyond his own school run. There are many places in the world - including Australia - where a vehicle like this is really needed. Ineos have been very astute in creating a plan for a servicing network in the bush- so overcoming one of Toyota's advantages. The relative simplicity of the mechanicals are a major advantage here. For many it will be a choice at the price suggested between an old Lancdcruiser or a new Grenadier. If it gets a foothold in the market, and everything suggests it will, it will become a best-seller. The Defender is in demand for urban style but is seen as to fragile and unreliable for serious use.
But the Grenadier has a latest technology BMW engine. Surely you will need BMW diagnostic equipment to evaluate error codes and it will take more than a spanner and screw driver to fix. Or are we saying this is common for "network in the bush"?M
You have to assume (hope) that a man of these resources has done a bit of homework in terms of who the targeted customer is. I get the rugged use in South Africa etc but realistically how many are they going to sell at £ 50k a piece ?. A huge part of SUVs are never used for their intended environment and the hard core off-roading is only needed once or twice for the shooting trips in North Devon. Here a wholly British build Grenadier would at least have brought some kudos to the owner but even that feature has been taken away. Instead it is build in France so probably reversing will be its biggest party trick.
camel_landy said:
leef44 said:
Gareth9702 said:
I write the same comment whenever I read a review of the Grenadier by a journalist who cannot see beyond his own school run. There are many places in the world - including Australia - where a vehicle like this is really needed. Ineos have been very astute in creating a plan for a servicing network in the bush- so overcoming one of Toyota's advantages. The relative simplicity of the mechanicals are a major advantage here. For many it will be a choice at the price suggested between an old Lancdcruiser or a new Grenadier. If it gets a foothold in the market, and everything suggests it will, it will become a best-seller. The Defender is in demand for urban style but is seen as to fragile and unreliable for serious use.
But the Grenadier has a latest technology BMW engine. Surely you will need BMW diagnostic equipment to evaluate error codes and it will take more than a spanner and screw driver to fix. Or are we saying this is common for "network in the bush"?M
Who is going to be buying an unproven offroader for a premium price of 50k or more ? No track record. No history.
It's a car that's a rich man's pet project. Designed in the pub - too bulky for the city it was thought up and with little thought for even the immediate future. Electrify that weight with the aerodynamics of a brick ?
Even calling it a Grenadier to tug on British heartstrings and then building it overseas.
Why not just wait for a better Chinese version ?
I can't see this being anything more than a niche product.
It's a car that's a rich man's pet project. Designed in the pub - too bulky for the city it was thought up and with little thought for even the immediate future. Electrify that weight with the aerodynamics of a brick ?
Even calling it a Grenadier to tug on British heartstrings and then building it overseas.
Why not just wait for a better Chinese version ?
I can't see this being anything more than a niche product.
Dougmillarjnr said:
Also as a designer myself it really does grate that a entirely new vehicle has bascially ripped off someone elses design. If you had the opportunity to design a new off roader from scratch where you were not burdened by your own previous design history, why create an exact facimile of an existing car. Its crazy and shows a complete lack of imagination, creativity and integrity.
This!All that effort, time and money creating something new, but produce something so derivative. And their original bits don't work as a whole, nothing relates, nothing's aligned properly. It's such a missed opportunity.
The vehicle itself has grown on me but I just can't see the market for it. Not surprised there's been a price hike, that's just what these things end up costing.
I think the expectation that a brand new vehicle from a brand new manufacturer will be reliable enough as this needs to be is wishful thinking, regardless of how well it has been designed and developed.
I think the expectation that a brand new vehicle from a brand new manufacturer will be reliable enough as this needs to be is wishful thinking, regardless of how well it has been designed and developed.
legless said:
I'm very interested to see how this actually sells.
The main reason why Land Rover don't build anything like this any more is simply because whichever way the product planners looked at it, the business case just didn't stack up. There was no profit in engineering and building a car on a unique platform in a market that's been gradually shrinking for decades, especially when that market is all but sewn up in most parts of the world by established players.
That's even before considering EU fleet-wide CO2 legislation - there's not a hope that this thing (as engineered now) will be able to meet targets after 2028 when the niche manufacturer derogations cease.
You are correct with LR’s reason… The main reason why Land Rover don't build anything like this any more is simply because whichever way the product planners looked at it, the business case just didn't stack up. There was no profit in engineering and building a car on a unique platform in a market that's been gradually shrinking for decades, especially when that market is all but sewn up in most parts of the world by established players.
That's even before considering EU fleet-wide CO2 legislation - there's not a hope that this thing (as engineered now) will be able to meet targets after 2028 when the niche manufacturer derogations cease.
But, both LR and most people on this forum seem to think Europe (Western Europe) is the main market research ground for any future ladder chassis/solid axle type of off-roader. That’s just simply wrong.
The market for this type of hardcore off-roader isn’t shrinking at all for North America, Australia, South Africa, Middle East and especially China. People in Europe really need to stop thinking Europe is the standard of everything. Even if there isn’t a market in Europe at all, it doesn’t mean that particular product wouldn’t sell well worldwide. The best selling vehicle in America for decades was the Ford F-150 full size pickup. However, it was never sold in here the UK or mainland Europe…
Fenix Uk said:
Who is going to be buying an unproven offroader for a premium price of 50k or more ? No track record. No history.
It's a car that's a rich man's pet project. Designed in the pub - too bulky for the city it was thought up and with little thought for even the immediate future. Electrify that weight with the aerodynamics of a brick ?
Even calling it a Grenadier to tug on British heartstrings and then building it overseas.
Why not just wait for a better Chinese version ?
I can't see this being anything more than a niche product.
So basically, you created a new account to have a moan... Who pissed you off then?It's a car that's a rich man's pet project. Designed in the pub - too bulky for the city it was thought up and with little thought for even the immediate future. Electrify that weight with the aerodynamics of a brick ?
Even calling it a Grenadier to tug on British heartstrings and then building it overseas.
Why not just wait for a better Chinese version ?
I can't see this being anything more than a niche product.
M
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