RE: INEOS Grenadier prototype | PH Review
Discussion
loveice said:
legless said:
I'm very interested to see how this actually sells.
The main reason why Land Rover don't build anything like this any more is simply because whichever way the product planners looked at it, the business case just didn't stack up. There was no profit in engineering and building a car on a unique platform in a market that's been gradually shrinking for decades, especially when that market is all but sewn up in most parts of the world by established players.
That's even before considering EU fleet-wide CO2 legislation - there's not a hope that this thing (as engineered now) will be able to meet targets after 2028 when the niche manufacturer derogations cease.
You are correct with LR’s reason… The main reason why Land Rover don't build anything like this any more is simply because whichever way the product planners looked at it, the business case just didn't stack up. There was no profit in engineering and building a car on a unique platform in a market that's been gradually shrinking for decades, especially when that market is all but sewn up in most parts of the world by established players.
That's even before considering EU fleet-wide CO2 legislation - there's not a hope that this thing (as engineered now) will be able to meet targets after 2028 when the niche manufacturer derogations cease.
But, both LR and most people on this forum seem to think Europe (Western Europe) is the main market research ground for any future ladder chassis/solid axle type of off-roader. That’s just simply wrong.
The market for this type of hardcore off-roader isn’t shrinking at all for North America, Australia, South Africa, Middle East and especially China. People in Europe really need to stop thinking Europe is the standard of everything. Even if there isn’t a market in Europe at all, it doesn’t mean that particular product wouldn’t sell well worldwide. The best selling vehicle in America for decades was the Ford F-150 full size pickup. However, it was never sold in here the UK or mainland Europe…
It just looks like the TVR folly, but on a bigger scale...
Somebody..
buying a new Defender will not buy this..
who is thinking of buying a Jeep Wrangler or Bronco but wants something a bit less 'showy' may...
who was romantic about the old Defender but realised how flawed they are will
who needs a go anywhere car that is no nonsense absolutely will. Chief competitor here is the Landcruiser. Which is likely short-lived as Toyota turns to EV.
and here is where we may get a shock..
those attracted by G Wagons, Kahn and Twisted Defenders etc...could well buy them in their thousands.. You read it here first!
Self made billionaires are rarely stupid..
buying a new Defender will not buy this..
who is thinking of buying a Jeep Wrangler or Bronco but wants something a bit less 'showy' may...
who was romantic about the old Defender but realised how flawed they are will
who needs a go anywhere car that is no nonsense absolutely will. Chief competitor here is the Landcruiser. Which is likely short-lived as Toyota turns to EV.
and here is where we may get a shock..
those attracted by G Wagons, Kahn and Twisted Defenders etc...could well buy them in their thousands.. You read it here first!
Self made billionaires are rarely stupid..
I'm the target market for this. Offroaded across Australia and parts of Africa, taken my Defender across the Pyrenees. This is clearly targeted as a utility vehicle, supposedly rugged and tough.
Which also means it needs to be cheap. The price is at least £12k too high. And if it's to take off worldwide it needs a major partner in part supply and logistics, otherwise it'll break and you'll be stuck.
Otherwise, it'll be a novelty item. Some will sell, but not that many. This competes with the rugged Fords and Toyotas, and it's hard to see how it betters them in many areas - so it needed to compete strongly on price. It doesn't. Shame.
Which also means it needs to be cheap. The price is at least £12k too high. And if it's to take off worldwide it needs a major partner in part supply and logistics, otherwise it'll break and you'll be stuck.
Otherwise, it'll be a novelty item. Some will sell, but not that many. This competes with the rugged Fords and Toyotas, and it's hard to see how it betters them in many areas - so it needed to compete strongly on price. It doesn't. Shame.
Paracetamol said:
Somebody..
and here is where we may get a shock..
those attracted by G Wagons, Kahn and Twisted Defenders etc...could well buy them in their thousands.. You read it here first!
Self made billionaires are rarely stupid..
You will see more of these things on the Kings Road than the Kalahari...and here is where we may get a shock..
those attracted by G Wagons, Kahn and Twisted Defenders etc...could well buy them in their thousands.. You read it here first!
Self made billionaires are rarely stupid..
No doubt dyed in the wool brexiters will ignore the fact that it is entirely European (Ratlciffe having entirely disappointed the Welsh and moved to Monaco) and get the 1980's glasses of nostalgia on and chirp on about it being the real Defender.
Ratcliffe should stick to chemicals and why would anyone buy this one off rather than a new Defender or a G Wagon. Price perhaps but you get what you pay for by the sound of it. The workers knocking these out in France must be laughing into their lunchboxes.
Farmers don't drive Fordsons on their farms anymore so why do they have to drive another relic of a bygone age other than because brexiters try to make out the old Defender was brilliant, mostly because it was handbuilt in Brum.
Ratcliffe should stick to chemicals and why would anyone buy this one off rather than a new Defender or a G Wagon. Price perhaps but you get what you pay for by the sound of it. The workers knocking these out in France must be laughing into their lunchboxes.
Farmers don't drive Fordsons on their farms anymore so why do they have to drive another relic of a bygone age other than because brexiters try to make out the old Defender was brilliant, mostly because it was handbuilt in Brum.
xcentric said:
I'm the target market for this. Offroaded across Australia and parts of Africa, taken my Defender across the Pyrenees. This is clearly targeted as a utility vehicle, supposedly rugged and tough.
Which also means it needs to be cheap. The price is at least £12k too high. And if it's to take off worldwide it needs a major partner in part supply and logistics, otherwise it'll break and you'll be stuck.
Otherwise, it'll be a novelty item. Some will sell, but not that many. This competes with the rugged Fords and Toyotas, and it's hard to see how it betters them in many areas - so it needed to compete strongly on price. It doesn't. Shame.
I've done similar with my Defender and I'm looking at this with interest too... Thing is, whilst you say it's £12k over where it needs to be, what other options are there (that aren't made of cheese)?Which also means it needs to be cheap. The price is at least £12k too high. And if it's to take off worldwide it needs a major partner in part supply and logistics, otherwise it'll break and you'll be stuck.
Otherwise, it'll be a novelty item. Some will sell, but not that many. This competes with the rugged Fords and Toyotas, and it's hard to see how it betters them in many areas - so it needed to compete strongly on price. It doesn't. Shame.
M
BigChiefmuffinAgain said:
Totally agree that there is a market outside of Europe, but just wonder if this car is what that market is looking for. It just seems really expensive for what it is and there are alternatives, from well established manufacturers, such as Ford, for a lot less money. Is someone in China going to splash out a lot of money on something they have never heard of ,from a company who have never even built a car before ( with all the risks that entails ). China is a big place and people who want to drive off road tend to live in the more remote parts. How will this company build even the dealer network to support the car ?
It just looks like the TVR folly, but on a bigger scale...
+1 Why would anyone in China or India buy a very expensive agricultural vehicle with a complicated engine? Why would anyone in the US buy this over a cheaper US built equivalent (or the new Defender...)? Why would anyone in Oz (or Africa) buy this over a Toyota?It just looks like the TVR folly, but on a bigger scale...
Grenadier threads tend to get repetitive, so well done to whoever it was who compared it to a Rolex Submariner! I don't suppose it's what you intended, but comparing it to overpriced bling that doesn't do the job as well as the competition is spot on!
GT9 said:
The lever is a completely integrated part of the gearbox with a button to engage park, a release button to move the selector, a lateral pivoting motion to access Sport mode and a longitudinal pivoting motion to both select the drive mode and change gears manually in Sport.
There is no way you can just screw on something to replace all these functions and interface with the BMW controls. As others have pointed out, to engineer a replacement and certify safety and reliability would be expensive in the extreme.
BMW will not supply nor warranty the box without the integral lever, so it’s academic anyway. It’s nothing to do with branding.
That is just a myth that would make the TVR PR team blush, the ZF8HP50 3rd Generation gearbox is made by ZF. Not BMW, you can also find this gearbox in a Dodge, Audi, Aston, RR etc. There is no way you can just screw on something to replace all these functions and interface with the BMW controls. As others have pointed out, to engineer a replacement and certify safety and reliability would be expensive in the extreme.
BMW will not supply nor warranty the box without the integral lever, so it’s academic anyway. It’s nothing to do with branding.
Even the humble Iveco has made one that doesn't look like a sex toy that talks to the gearbox.
I love the paradox of this Gredandier, you have fanboys saying you can fix it yourself in a sandstorm in Namibia, but the gearlever? Oh that is a BMW part that can't be changed and don't ask about how it works.
In modern times, UK farmers and people in countries with rough tracks for roads drive Japanese pickups/crew cabs, which are good value and presumably quite capable. Toyota and Mitsubishi parts are easily obtained too.
I wonder how people who want a "lifestyle vehicle" will buy a Grenadier? There may be some initial interest.
I wonder how people who want a "lifestyle vehicle" will buy a Grenadier? There may be some initial interest.
legless said:
I'm very interested to see how this actually sells.
The main reason why Land Rover don't build anything like this any more is simply because whichever way the product planners looked at it, the business case just didn't stack up. There was no profit in engineering and building a car on a unique platform in a market that's been gradually shrinking for decades, especially when that market is all but sewn up in most parts of the world by established players.
That's even before considering EU fleet-wide CO2 legislation - there's not a hope that this thing (as engineered now) will be able to meet targets after 2028 when the niche manufacturer derogations cease.
Well according to PH, the new JLR Defender "isn't a Defender" and "i'll wait and get the Grenadier" - so of course we shall see thousands on UK road... wont we...? hmmmmThe main reason why Land Rover don't build anything like this any more is simply because whichever way the product planners looked at it, the business case just didn't stack up. There was no profit in engineering and building a car on a unique platform in a market that's been gradually shrinking for decades, especially when that market is all but sewn up in most parts of the world by established players.
That's even before considering EU fleet-wide CO2 legislation - there's not a hope that this thing (as engineered now) will be able to meet targets after 2028 when the niche manufacturer derogations cease.
I can’t see this being a success…
If you want an old defender have one with all the classic status and cache that it comes with….. if you want something new have a new one…
If you want something utilitarian, you’ll probably have a Toyota/Mitsubishi etc or in America a Ford pick up.
Then in just a few short years you’ll need to make it EV for Europe anyway.
Fair play for going the distance on this project though.
If you want an old defender have one with all the classic status and cache that it comes with….. if you want something new have a new one…
If you want something utilitarian, you’ll probably have a Toyota/Mitsubishi etc or in America a Ford pick up.
Then in just a few short years you’ll need to make it EV for Europe anyway.
Fair play for going the distance on this project though.
camel_landy said:
xcentric said:
I'm the target market for this. Offroaded across Australia and parts of Africa, taken my Defender across the Pyrenees. This is clearly targeted as a utility vehicle, supposedly rugged and tough.
Which also means it needs to be cheap. The price is at least £12k too high. And if it's to take off worldwide it needs a major partner in part supply and logistics, otherwise it'll break and you'll be stuck.
Otherwise, it'll be a novelty item. Some will sell, but not that many. This competes with the rugged Fords and Toyotas, and it's hard to see how it betters them in many areas - so it needed to compete strongly on price. It doesn't. Shame.
I've done similar with my Defender and I'm looking at this with interest too... Thing is, whilst you say it's £12k over where it needs to be, what other options are there (that aren't made of cheese)?Which also means it needs to be cheap. The price is at least £12k too high. And if it's to take off worldwide it needs a major partner in part supply and logistics, otherwise it'll break and you'll be stuck.
Otherwise, it'll be a novelty item. Some will sell, but not that many. This competes with the rugged Fords and Toyotas, and it's hard to see how it betters them in many areas - so it needed to compete strongly on price. It doesn't. Shame.
M
Sway said:
Except it wasn't about being 'done more efficiently in France', was it?
It was 'build brand new factory from scratch costing tens of millions, or be gifted a brand spanking new factory for essentially free'...
Except that plenty of locations are being refactored for completely new/different supply lines:It was 'build brand new factory from scratch costing tens of millions, or be gifted a brand spanking new factory for essentially free'...
https://europe.autonews.com/automakers/bmw-moves-e...
https://europe.nissannews.com/en-GB/releases/relea...
https://www.itv.com/news/westcountry/2021-07-30/sw...
Please do tell me about the value of bricks and mortar over people and the knock-on effect on local economies. Ineos chose French jobs for French workers. Doesn't match up.
sisu said:
I love the paradox of this Gredandier, you have fanboys saying you can fix it yourself in a sandstorm in Namibia, but the gearlever? Oh that is a BMW part that can't be changed and don't ask about how it works.
Yeah a blatant nod to the complexity that lies under the bonnet and a total contrast to rest of the interior.Which interior suggests the car is easily fixable in remote locations?
sisu said:
That is just a myth that would make the TVR PR team blush, the ZF8HP50 3rd Generation gearbox is made by ZF. Not BMW, you can also find this gearbox in a Dodge, Audi, Aston, RR etc.
My understanding from the Morgan thread is that BMW supply the engine, gearbox and gearlever as one unit and you have to have the lot. For sure you could buy the gearbox from ZF but then you'd be looking at a different engine as BMW won't supply theirs without supplying the gearbox. Gassing Station | INEOS | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff