RE: INEOS Grenadier prototype | PH Review
Discussion
Paracetamol said:
Somebody..
buying a new Defender will not buy this..
who is thinking of buying a Jeep Wrangler or Bronco but wants something a bit less 'showy' may...
who was romantic about the old Defender but realised how flawed they are will
who needs a go anywhere car that is no nonsense absolutely will. Chief competitor here is the Landcruiser. Which is likely short-lived as Toyota turns to EV.
and here is where we may get a shock..
those attracted by G Wagons, Kahn and Twisted Defenders etc...could well buy them in their thousands.. You read it here first!
Self made billionaires are rarely stupid..
Not sure the footballer/kings road/bored billionaire crowd get to the sort of 25k a year numbers they are talking about though. That's quite a lot - over double the number of cars say Ferrari build, and you see them all the time even in just our market.....buying a new Defender will not buy this..
who is thinking of buying a Jeep Wrangler or Bronco but wants something a bit less 'showy' may...
who was romantic about the old Defender but realised how flawed they are will
who needs a go anywhere car that is no nonsense absolutely will. Chief competitor here is the Landcruiser. Which is likely short-lived as Toyota turns to EV.
and here is where we may get a shock..
those attracted by G Wagons, Kahn and Twisted Defenders etc...could well buy them in their thousands.. You read it here first!
Self made billionaires are rarely stupid..
The RoW more utilitarian demand i guess is what they're banking on - but then, that price.... and it's still a risk for drivetrain and other parts vs. the standard japanese pickup/SUV that market buys today.
Gareth9702 said:
I write the same comment whenever I read a review of the Grenadier by a journalist who cannot see beyond his own school run. There are many places in the world - including Australia - where a vehicle like this is really needed. Ineos have been very astute in creating a plan for a servicing network in the bush- so overcoming one of Toyota's advantages. The relative simplicity of the mechanicals are a major advantage here. For many it will be a choice at the price suggested between an old Lancdcruiser or a new Grenadier. If it gets a foothold in the market, and everything suggests it will, it will become a best-seller. The Defender is in demand for urban style but is seen as to fragile and unreliable for serious use.
With a BMW motor? You'd rather that than a Toyota lump for reliability?Article said:
It was only later that I realised that almost all of my off-roading in the last couple of years has been done in modern Land Rover products, with Terrain Response systems invisibly tightening their lines with selective differential locking and brake intervention.
Terrarin Response won't lock diffs to turn you....that would have the opposite effect. Locked diffs are more likely to make you understeer. The only other tool in the arsenal is brake based torque vectoring, but generally in off road modes this only works for rut exits and not for just general turning. The brake pressure you need to turn a car with the brakes is huge resulting in very unrefined progress with lots of brake graunch and problems with the engine torque being pulled down too low, so it isn't calibrated like that.I suspect what you had is more down to the compromises solid axles cause.
Dynion Araf Uchaf said:
Paracetamol said:
. Exceptional strength of chassis and properly considered articulation etc. the package felt tight and well engineered in the way a Rolex Submariner does. The interior is great too.
f
king hell. Of course!Very relatable analogy there
shalmaneser said:
Dynion Araf Uchaf said:
Paracetamol said:
. Exceptional strength of chassis and properly considered articulation etc. the package felt tight and well engineered in the way a Rolex Submariner does. The interior is great too.
fking hell. Of course!Very relatable analogy there
corcoran said:
Sway said:
Except it wasn't about being 'done more efficiently in France', was it?
It was 'build brand new factory from scratch costing tens of millions, or be gifted a brand spanking new factory for essentially free'...
Except that plenty of locations are being refactored for completely new/different supply lines:It was 'build brand new factory from scratch costing tens of millions, or be gifted a brand spanking new factory for essentially free'...
https://europe.autonews.com/automakers/bmw-moves-e...
https://europe.nissannews.com/en-GB/releases/relea...
https://www.itv.com/news/westcountry/2021-07-30/sw...
Please do tell me about the value of bricks and mortar over people and the knock-on effect on local economies. Ineos chose French jobs for French workers. Doesn't match up.
For Ineos, that was fully paid for by someone else, then gifted to them.
So, it's exactly as I state - any company would be an utter fool to pass up that gift horse. It's only because people are bringing personal political views into business they get so wound up...
The only scenario once the Merc factory was up for free for production to remain in the UK would be if Honda had retooled Swindon then decided to back out, or if Nissan had completely rebuilt Sunderland then decided to shift all production to Barcelona.
Meanwhile, Aston is rebuilding it's post pandemic workforce, and enabling a level of jobs and investment an order of magnitude greater than the Grenadier would ever have provided - just as Sunderland is doing a stellar job making itself incredibly difficult for Nissan to ignore.
In the UK at least, if they can build a decent utility van commercial, like LR used to do with the 110, then it will sell well.
Right now, the only other options where you can carry more than 2 passengers, off road, without getting clobbered for BIK tax is either a HiLux type double cab, or the Combi style vans (the latter debatable).
Right now, the only other options where you can carry more than 2 passengers, off road, without getting clobbered for BIK tax is either a HiLux type double cab, or the Combi style vans (the latter debatable).
shalmaneser said:
Gareth9702 said:
I write the same comment whenever I read a review of the Grenadier by a journalist who cannot see beyond his own school run. There are many places in the world - including Australia - where a vehicle like this is really needed. Ineos have been very astute in creating a plan for a servicing network in the bush- so overcoming one of Toyota's advantages. The relative simplicity of the mechanicals are a major advantage here. For many it will be a choice at the price suggested between an old Lancdcruiser or a new Grenadier. If it gets a foothold in the market, and everything suggests it will, it will become a best-seller. The Defender is in demand for urban style but is seen as to fragile and unreliable for serious use.
With a BMW motor? You'd rather that than a Toyota lump for reliability?I kind of feel there's other more desirable options out there now for the worldwide market like the updated Ford Ranger or indeed the Bronco.
I'd like to see the Grenadier succeed despite the naysayers, but I really struggle to see the market for it. I can quite honestly see it struggling to do more than 7,000-8,000 units a year which surely isn't in any way viable. This does pretty much feel like a vanity project for Radcliff as, unless he actually has some future plans to back up the Grenadier with an EV, I don't see that the Ineos brand has a future in car manufacturing.
I'd like to see the Grenadier succeed despite the naysayers, but I really struggle to see the market for it. I can quite honestly see it struggling to do more than 7,000-8,000 units a year which surely isn't in any way viable. This does pretty much feel like a vanity project for Radcliff as, unless he actually has some future plans to back up the Grenadier with an EV, I don't see that the Ineos brand has a future in car manufacturing.
leef44 said:
But the Grenadier has a latest technology BMW engine. Surely you will need BMW diagnostic equipment to evaluate error codes and it will take more than a spanner and screw driver to fix. Or are we saying this is common for "network in the bush"?
Yes, those "tractor/farm supply" dealers will need new diagnostic equipment, not much of an issue to most tractor dealers (seen how much tech is in a modern John Deere?), but some will definitely need to up-skill on the engine tech, but the rest of the truck is pretty approachable. I'd be much more worried by the engine reliability, given that diesel will be the preferred option and I believe these are using the BMW B57 diesel and b58 petrol lumps … the B57 particularly is going thru some horrendous reliability issues, related to oiling and maintenance currently. Common sourcing/fitments on UK police fleets until recently they're now causing all sorts of issues, even though the usage is inevitably different, they are both heavy duty cycle deployments, hence I'd want some assurances Ineos have done some extra due-diligence.
silvermog said:
leef44 said:
But the Grenadier has a latest technology BMW engine. Surely you will need BMW diagnostic equipment to evaluate error codes and it will take more than a spanner and screw driver to fix. Or are we saying this is common for "network in the bush"?
Yes, those "tractor/farm supply" dealers will need new diagnostic equipment, not much of an issue to most tractor dealers (seen how much tech is in a modern John Deere?), but some will definitely need to up-skill on the engine tech, but the rest of the truck is pretty approachable. I'd be much more worried by the engine reliability, given that diesel will be the preferred option and I believe these are using the BMW B57 diesel and b58 petrol lumps … the B57 particularly is going thru some horrendous reliability issues, related to oiling and maintenance currently. Common sourcing/fitments on UK police fleets until recently they're now causing all sorts of issues, even though the usage is inevitably different, they are both heavy duty cycle deployments, hence I'd want some assurances Ineos have done some extra due-diligence.
Furthermore, there's all sorts of potential pitfalls for sensor problems, calibration issues and electrical faults when you're 'in market' which simply cannot be fixed with any diagnostics machine. All a DTC reader can do is read and clear faults. It doesn't 'fix' the problem. So whilst you may have something like a 'long term trim on bank 1 lean' fault that you can clear, knowing why that's happening or how to fix it requires much deeper investigation since any number of things could cause that and you won't know what without troubleshooting which may require belling out wires, checking sensor functionality, reflashing software, taking data traces..... etc etc.
I suspect Ineos are reliant on the fact that the core market will be rich people who buy the car as a statement and barely venture beyond the high street. Any actual hardcore use cases can be dealt with on a one to one basis as the number being used for real work will be tiny. And ultimately, once a few reviews are out about it's offroad ability, that will convince enough of the wealthy 'Pretender' parrots buying one and driving it down to the Fox and Hound of a Thursday night to have a chat with Nige over a pint of warm beer.
Fenix Uk said:
Even calling it a Grenadier to tug on British heartstrings and then building it overseas.
The word Grenadier is derived from the French...the one who throws grenades. So the name is perfectly apt under the circumstances!Perhaps calling it the Squaddie would have more pull on the British heartstrings?
I've put my small reservation fee down and I am now waiting to finalise the specification and the price, due in April for delivery later in the year.
I have old Land Rover 110/Defenders and want a more modern equivalent that should manage a lifespan on a par with my LRs, 33 and 31 years respectively. I do not see the current Defender model managing to last that long; it is just too complex and there are too few dealers who seem capable of fault rectification.
You cannot buy a low specification Defender at the moment, so the JLR starting prices are meaningless and the quoted cost for a Grenadier at £48k includes VAT, so the basic Grenadier is pitched at slightly below the starting price for a 110 van, if you could get one. I would expect the SW will be priced at slightly less than the 110CSW on steel springs, again, if you could get one delivered this year. Pricing at this level is more of a marketing decision than an engineering one.
A couple of things make me nervous; will INEOS Automotive last and will the support be any good? If it is a vanity project, then it should be around long enough to get a few tens of thousands pushed into the market place. You do not need too many to create a userbase that will support the odd specialist if the parent fails.
If INEOS's longevity claims are justified, then the cost of ownership will fall quite rapidly, so the vehicle may even be a success, despite the high entry cost. (The old Defender was never a bargain new in its lifetime).
Releasing an electronic user/service manual, being flexible with service partners and the aftermarket puts clear blue water between INEOS Automotive and JLR, if they can manage just better reliability than JLR, I can see it going cult. With a hydrogen fuel cell vehicle and a BEV in development, if INEOS can get a decent launch, they could be around for some time.
A good few years ago I bought a Dualit toaster; a basic toaster is under £20, the Dualit was over £100, but the basic toasters last 18 months to two years and cannot be repaired at any price. The Dualit is still going 25 years later with one minor repair, at £17 and can still be repaired. Reduce, reuse, recycle suggests buying less, good quality stuff and keeping in for a long time. Hopefully the Grenadier will do that.
I have old Land Rover 110/Defenders and want a more modern equivalent that should manage a lifespan on a par with my LRs, 33 and 31 years respectively. I do not see the current Defender model managing to last that long; it is just too complex and there are too few dealers who seem capable of fault rectification.
You cannot buy a low specification Defender at the moment, so the JLR starting prices are meaningless and the quoted cost for a Grenadier at £48k includes VAT, so the basic Grenadier is pitched at slightly below the starting price for a 110 van, if you could get one. I would expect the SW will be priced at slightly less than the 110CSW on steel springs, again, if you could get one delivered this year. Pricing at this level is more of a marketing decision than an engineering one.
A couple of things make me nervous; will INEOS Automotive last and will the support be any good? If it is a vanity project, then it should be around long enough to get a few tens of thousands pushed into the market place. You do not need too many to create a userbase that will support the odd specialist if the parent fails.
If INEOS's longevity claims are justified, then the cost of ownership will fall quite rapidly, so the vehicle may even be a success, despite the high entry cost. (The old Defender was never a bargain new in its lifetime).
Releasing an electronic user/service manual, being flexible with service partners and the aftermarket puts clear blue water between INEOS Automotive and JLR, if they can manage just better reliability than JLR, I can see it going cult. With a hydrogen fuel cell vehicle and a BEV in development, if INEOS can get a decent launch, they could be around for some time.
A good few years ago I bought a Dualit toaster; a basic toaster is under £20, the Dualit was over £100, but the basic toasters last 18 months to two years and cannot be repaired at any price. The Dualit is still going 25 years later with one minor repair, at £17 and can still be repaired. Reduce, reuse, recycle suggests buying less, good quality stuff and keeping in for a long time. Hopefully the Grenadier will do that.
jeremy996 said:
I do not see the current Defender model managing to last that long; it is just too complex and there are too few dealers who seem capable of fault rectification.
The Grenadier is as complex as a current Defender and has zero dealers capable of fault rectification currently.jeremy995 said:
A good few years ago I bought a Dualit toaster; a basic toaster is under £20, the Dualit was over £100, but the basic toasters last 18 months to two years and cannot be repaired at any price. The Dualit is still going 25 years later with one minor repair, at £17 and can still be repaired. Reduce, reuse, recycle suggests buying less, good quality stuff and keeping in for a long time. Hopefully the Grenadier will do that.
If only cars could be compare to Toasters...underneath the rugged exterior of the Grenadier will be exactly the same electrical architecture as a new Defender. It'll have both CAN and Flexray networks (BMW had used Flexray since the mid 2010s and LR followed), it'll have a Bosch Powertrain Control Module (same as the LR), it has a ZF 8HP (same as the LR), it will have a Transfer Case Control Module to manage the locking and unlocking of the front and rear diffs (same as the LR) it will have a Gateway module to manage coms between the PCM, TCM, ABS, Body Modules, and Chassis modules (same as the LR) and it will have a LIN/CAN network for the Telecommunications Module. It also has a brake by wire system I believe....which is in line with almost all modern cars as that's all the suppliers now offer.So if you were to compare it to your two toasters. The only difference between your Dualit and the basic one would be what it looked like on the outside.
Edited by RacerMike on Wednesday 23 February 12:35
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