RE: Official: 2022 INEOS Grenadier priced from £49k
Discussion
DonkeyApple said:
I don't think that's an uncommon perspective but it's obvious that there's more than a few people who like a bit of a s
te wagon with a pretty unique character. I think you'd have to be a bit unhinged to say that they were ergonomically awesome cars but it's all part of the charm.
For sure, there is something quite cool about an old defender, I get that and you don't need to look further than current prices to see how popular they are but where does that leave the Grenadier? For people who want a new shyte car but not quite as shyte as an old defender? For the price of a new defender. I'm not seeing it. te wagon with a pretty unique character. I think you'd have to be a bit unhinged to say that they were ergonomically awesome cars but it's all part of the charm. paul n said:
silentbrown said:
I think the Ineos figures aren't OTR... So add the best part of another 3K for the non-commercial variants?
where did you read that? that would suck! Perhaps the WLTP not yet being finalised is why these costs aren't yet known?
fblm said:
For sure, there is something quite cool about an old defender, I get that and you don't need to look further than current prices to see how popular they are but where does that leave the Grenadier? For people who want a new shyte car but not quite as shyte as an old defender?For the price of a new defender. I'm not seeing it.
Basically, yes!There's been a huge market in 'ways to make your Defender less shyte' for decades, ranging from a little plastic scoop to duct air into the heater so you can feel its effects from more than three inches away right up to the full Twisted rebuilds and other comprehensive 'reimaginings'.
The Grenadier is essentially a 'pre-Twisted' Defender with the bonus of a warranty and having been designed from scratch in the current century, rather than being a 1990s update of a 1980s redesign of a concept from the 1940s using parts from the 1970s. And you'd hope it would be a big step forward in performance and refinement from a Defender, while still having all the characteristics that make it so lovable flawed - just as the current Suzuki Jimny or Jeep Wrangler are thoroughly awful in many ways when measured against what the average car buyer expects from an average car these days but are useful improvements on their forebears.
The whole point of the Grenadier is that it's an update of the original Defender, rather than the wholesale reimagining that LR opted for.
Andeh1 said:
£49k for that, when for 5% more you could have a Defender which does everything the Grenadier does, but in vastly more comfort, refinement, luxury, economy, safety and style. You'd have to really really hate yourself to opt out of that.....
I just love it, in a sort of so bad you can't help but watch sort of way.....
Edited by Andeh1 on Friday 29th April 12:38
Bet any money this Ineous will be a lot more capable off road than the new Defender.
paul n said:
DonkeyApple said:
I don't think goods need to be 'in touch' with a market to sell per se. 'The market' is after all not everyone just the majority, the norm, what is on trend with the masses. So for cars, 'the market' is whatever generic boxes the mass manufacturers are churning out. They absolutely have to pander at all times to 'the market' and must be 'in touch'. If they don't convince the masses that their product meets those criteria then they won't sell millions of them all around the world. The generic mass manufacturers have to sell hundreds of millions of identical boxes to hundreds of millions of humans who all want to think they're different, if not special. Porsche among others are absolute masters of selling mass produced goods in a way that make their millions of absolutely identical customers feel like they are on trend yet individuals for example.
Now with this car, one could argue that it doesn't want to be on trend or with the mainstream market and you can argue that it could never be mainstream so it would be a folly to market it as 'being in touch' or 'on trend'.
It's a toy for blokes with the ability to borrow £60+ to have some fun with. It's not really a serious product like a van or a pick-up, or 3 series BMW or any of those types of generic tools that are essential to people making a living or companies making a profit. There's no one and no business that needs a Grenadier. They're a luxury good like a sports car. It has no real purpose in the 21st century than as a personal indulgence.
It's not looking to sell millions to the masses so has absolutely no need to every contemplate 'being in trend' or any of the tools needed to shift millions of units to millions of punters. They're looking for 25k customers a year in a few years time after proving the product in the open market.
I suspect that those who talk about it not having excellent road handling are as out of touch as those who talk about crawling over a rock as if it's of any relevance or importance. It's just a toy for folk who like mucking about. It's no different to folk buying niche sports cars. They aren't racing drivers, they have no need for such a product. It's just a luxury purchase that gives the owner the pleasure of the delusion of a different life when plodding down the road and occasionally actually be used off road, almost certainly in a manner that pretty much any car could be used but that's not really the point.
Are there more than 25k people in the Western economy who would buy a toy like this each year? Of course there are. The actual issue isn't whether the product is in line with the masses at all but whether the people who aren't on that fun bus actually have the money to buy this.
Blokes will take on huge debt, sums beyond their annual income just so they can rent a Porsche to be seen in public with so you can see that there are plenty of blokes who'll gear up £60k for a toy but I don't think that works for this product. I think the product desire is completely different. It's not about going heavily into debt to be able to step out into public life as someone you're not. That's the human mechanism behind such overt brands as Porsche and the near comical Aston Martin Bond toolism. Rent an Aston and stick some clothes on a credit card and somehow you're not longer Gary who's got a successful IT business and eats in public like a cement mixer while coughing over a stranger but now St John Smythe, the privately educated gentlemen and man of mystery. The illusion the Grenadier offers isn't for the benefit of strangers like other premium chattels but is a very selfish, personal illusion. It's all about allowing the buyer to more easily imagine they're away from everyone not in the midst of the throng being adored. It's a different self delusion and I'm not sure if those types of blokes rush to go into debt the same way. After all, they can buy a knackered Disco for £3k and stick some cross country bits and bobs on it to achieve the same enjoyable delusion.
It doesn't concern me that this car is woefully out of date and utterly disorientated from the mass market. In fact, I believe it is essential that it is as that is its USP. It has no need to handle sublimely on tarmac and no need to climb a boulder. It's about folk living a normal 9-5 life and this being a bit of escapism. I'm just not sure there are as many blokes wanting to rent a £60k+ offroad car as there are blokes will to rent £60k+ sports cars or SUVs for their pleasure?
We'll have to see but there's no shortage of NGO and industrial procurement being done out of Monaco and Geneva and those deals aren't purely driven by the price and running cost of the underlying product. There's no shortage of tinpot, third world nations who spend more on their military than their health and education.
I think £60k+ is a bloody stupid amount of money for a toy that's supposed to be the epitome of 20th century simplicity not cutting edge 21st century engineering and I suspect that the bulk of the target market may be excluded at that level but I'm a renowned tightwad who can't really fathom the logic behind most of the things folk with no money go and rent to ensure they never have any money.
If the Grenadier really had been £30k, not that I thought it ever could be and from the start I reckoned it was a £60k Home Counties toy but if it had been then I would probably have bought one to leave in the barn as the family smash up and bang about wagon that just would have slowly turned into a brilliant shed wagon over the next ten years. At £60k there's absolutely no way. Maybe if used values were to totally plummet then it would become a contender again but by then my children will be teenagers and things like dragging boats, trailers, bikes and crossing fields and using unmade roads on the continent will be less frequent.
But for me there is also the problem that this is a chattel where a single man has chosen to align that chattel to his own personal standards and morals and like with Tesla I find those morals and standards woefully lacking and the person does not represent my personal values one iota. In fact I find myself closer to the other end of the scale and paying my hard earned money to have something that represents those people isn't going to happen. For consumers like myself, we prefer the delusion that comes from the scumbag not being out front and centre and shouting.
wow that's alot of words! Now with this car, one could argue that it doesn't want to be on trend or with the mainstream market and you can argue that it could never be mainstream so it would be a folly to market it as 'being in touch' or 'on trend'.
It's a toy for blokes with the ability to borrow £60+ to have some fun with. It's not really a serious product like a van or a pick-up, or 3 series BMW or any of those types of generic tools that are essential to people making a living or companies making a profit. There's no one and no business that needs a Grenadier. They're a luxury good like a sports car. It has no real purpose in the 21st century than as a personal indulgence.
It's not looking to sell millions to the masses so has absolutely no need to every contemplate 'being in trend' or any of the tools needed to shift millions of units to millions of punters. They're looking for 25k customers a year in a few years time after proving the product in the open market.
I suspect that those who talk about it not having excellent road handling are as out of touch as those who talk about crawling over a rock as if it's of any relevance or importance. It's just a toy for folk who like mucking about. It's no different to folk buying niche sports cars. They aren't racing drivers, they have no need for such a product. It's just a luxury purchase that gives the owner the pleasure of the delusion of a different life when plodding down the road and occasionally actually be used off road, almost certainly in a manner that pretty much any car could be used but that's not really the point.
Are there more than 25k people in the Western economy who would buy a toy like this each year? Of course there are. The actual issue isn't whether the product is in line with the masses at all but whether the people who aren't on that fun bus actually have the money to buy this.
Blokes will take on huge debt, sums beyond their annual income just so they can rent a Porsche to be seen in public with so you can see that there are plenty of blokes who'll gear up £60k for a toy but I don't think that works for this product. I think the product desire is completely different. It's not about going heavily into debt to be able to step out into public life as someone you're not. That's the human mechanism behind such overt brands as Porsche and the near comical Aston Martin Bond toolism. Rent an Aston and stick some clothes on a credit card and somehow you're not longer Gary who's got a successful IT business and eats in public like a cement mixer while coughing over a stranger but now St John Smythe, the privately educated gentlemen and man of mystery. The illusion the Grenadier offers isn't for the benefit of strangers like other premium chattels but is a very selfish, personal illusion. It's all about allowing the buyer to more easily imagine they're away from everyone not in the midst of the throng being adored. It's a different self delusion and I'm not sure if those types of blokes rush to go into debt the same way. After all, they can buy a knackered Disco for £3k and stick some cross country bits and bobs on it to achieve the same enjoyable delusion.
It doesn't concern me that this car is woefully out of date and utterly disorientated from the mass market. In fact, I believe it is essential that it is as that is its USP. It has no need to handle sublimely on tarmac and no need to climb a boulder. It's about folk living a normal 9-5 life and this being a bit of escapism. I'm just not sure there are as many blokes wanting to rent a £60k+ offroad car as there are blokes will to rent £60k+ sports cars or SUVs for their pleasure?
We'll have to see but there's no shortage of NGO and industrial procurement being done out of Monaco and Geneva and those deals aren't purely driven by the price and running cost of the underlying product. There's no shortage of tinpot, third world nations who spend more on their military than their health and education.
I think £60k+ is a bloody stupid amount of money for a toy that's supposed to be the epitome of 20th century simplicity not cutting edge 21st century engineering and I suspect that the bulk of the target market may be excluded at that level but I'm a renowned tightwad who can't really fathom the logic behind most of the things folk with no money go and rent to ensure they never have any money.
If the Grenadier really had been £30k, not that I thought it ever could be and from the start I reckoned it was a £60k Home Counties toy but if it had been then I would probably have bought one to leave in the barn as the family smash up and bang about wagon that just would have slowly turned into a brilliant shed wagon over the next ten years. At £60k there's absolutely no way. Maybe if used values were to totally plummet then it would become a contender again but by then my children will be teenagers and things like dragging boats, trailers, bikes and crossing fields and using unmade roads on the continent will be less frequent.
But for me there is also the problem that this is a chattel where a single man has chosen to align that chattel to his own personal standards and morals and like with Tesla I find those morals and standards woefully lacking and the person does not represent my personal values one iota. In fact I find myself closer to the other end of the scale and paying my hard earned money to have something that represents those people isn't going to happen. For consumers like myself, we prefer the delusion that comes from the scumbag not being out front and centre and shouting.
DonkeyApple said:
I don't think goods need to be 'in touch' with a market to sell per se. 'The market' is after all not everyone just the majority, the norm, what is on trend with the masses. So for cars, 'the market' is whatever generic boxes the mass manufacturers are churning out. They absolutely have to pander at all times to 'the market' and must be 'in touch'. If they don't convince the masses that their product meets those criteria then they won't sell millions of them all around the world. The generic mass manufacturers have to sell hundreds of millions of identical boxes to hundreds of millions of humans who all want to think they're different, if not special. Porsche among others are absolute masters of selling mass produced goods in a way that make their millions of absolutely identical customers feel like they are on trend yet individuals for example.
Now with this car, one could argue that it doesn't want to be on trend or with the mainstream market and you can argue that it could never be mainstream so it would be a folly to market it as 'being in touch' or 'on trend'.
It's a toy for blokes with the ability to borrow £60+ to have some fun with. It's not really a serious product like a van or a pick-up, or 3 series BMW or any of those types of generic tools that are essential to people making a living or companies making a profit. There's no one and no business that needs a Grenadier. They're a luxury good like a sports car. It has no real purpose in the 21st century than as a personal indulgence.
It's not looking to sell millions to the masses so has absolutely no need to every contemplate 'being in trend' or any of the tools needed to shift millions of units to millions of punters. They're looking for 25k customers a year in a few years time after proving the product in the open market.
I suspect that those who talk about it not having excellent road handling are as out of touch as those who talk about crawling over a rock as if it's of any relevance or importance. It's just a toy for folk who like mucking about. It's no different to folk buying niche sports cars. They aren't racing drivers, they have no need for such a product. It's just a luxury purchase that gives the owner the pleasure of the delusion of a different life when plodding down the road and occasionally actually be used off road, almost certainly in a manner that pretty much any car could be used but that's not really the point.
Are there more than 25k people in the Western economy who would buy a toy like this each year? Of course there are. The actual issue isn't whether the product is in line with the masses at all but whether the people who aren't on that fun bus actually have the money to buy this.
Blokes will take on huge debt, sums beyond their annual income just so they can rent a Porsche to be seen in public with so you can see that there are plenty of blokes who'll gear up £60k for a toy but I don't think that works for this product. I think the product desire is completely different. It's not about going heavily into debt to be able to step out into public life as someone you're not. That's the human mechanism behind such overt brands as Porsche and the near comical Aston Martin Bond toolism. Rent an Aston and stick some clothes on a credit card and somehow you're not longer Gary who's got a successful IT business and eats in public like a cement mixer while coughing over a stranger but now St John Smythe, the privately educated gentlemen and man of mystery. The illusion the Grenadier offers isn't for the benefit of strangers like other premium chattels but is a very selfish, personal illusion. It's all about allowing the buyer to more easily imagine they're away from everyone not in the midst of the throng being adored. It's a different self delusion and I'm not sure if those types of blokes rush to go into debt the same way. After all, they can buy a knackered Disco for £3k and stick some cross country bits and bobs on it to achieve the same enjoyable delusion.
It doesn't concern me that this car is woefully out of date and utterly disorientated from the mass market. In fact, I believe it is essential that it is as that is its USP. It has no need to handle sublimely on tarmac and no need to climb a boulder. It's about folk living a normal 9-5 life and this being a bit of escapism. I'm just not sure there are as many blokes wanting to rent a £60k+ offroad car as there are blokes will to rent £60k+ sports cars or SUVs for their pleasure?
We'll have to see but there's no shortage of NGO and industrial procurement being done out of Monaco and Geneva and those deals aren't purely driven by the price and running cost of the underlying product. There's no shortage of tinpot, third world nations who spend more on their military than their health and education.
I think £60k+ is a bloody stupid amount of money for a toy that's supposed to be the epitome of 20th century simplicity not cutting edge 21st century engineering and I suspect that the bulk of the target market may be excluded at that level but I'm a renowned tightwad who can't really fathom the logic behind most of the things folk with no money go and rent to ensure they never have any money.
If the Grenadier really had been £30k, not that I thought it ever could be and from the start I reckoned it was a £60k Home Counties toy but if it had been then I would probably have bought one to leave in the barn as the family smash up and bang about wagon that just would have slowly turned into a brilliant shed wagon over the next ten years. At £60k there's absolutely no way. Maybe if used values were to totally plummet then it would become a contender again but by then my children will be teenagers and things like dragging boats, trailers, bikes and crossing fields and using unmade roads on the continent will be less frequent.
But for me there is also the problem that this is a chattel where a single man has chosen to align that chattel to his own personal standards and morals and like with Tesla I find those morals and standards woefully lacking and the person does not represent my personal values one iota. In fact I find myself closer to the other end of the scale and paying my hard earned money to have something that represents those people isn't going to happen. For consumers like myself, we prefer the delusion that comes from the scumbag not being out front and centre and shouting.
Wow! Why use one word when 500 will do?Now with this car, one could argue that it doesn't want to be on trend or with the mainstream market and you can argue that it could never be mainstream so it would be a folly to market it as 'being in touch' or 'on trend'.
It's a toy for blokes with the ability to borrow £60+ to have some fun with. It's not really a serious product like a van or a pick-up, or 3 series BMW or any of those types of generic tools that are essential to people making a living or companies making a profit. There's no one and no business that needs a Grenadier. They're a luxury good like a sports car. It has no real purpose in the 21st century than as a personal indulgence.
It's not looking to sell millions to the masses so has absolutely no need to every contemplate 'being in trend' or any of the tools needed to shift millions of units to millions of punters. They're looking for 25k customers a year in a few years time after proving the product in the open market.
I suspect that those who talk about it not having excellent road handling are as out of touch as those who talk about crawling over a rock as if it's of any relevance or importance. It's just a toy for folk who like mucking about. It's no different to folk buying niche sports cars. They aren't racing drivers, they have no need for such a product. It's just a luxury purchase that gives the owner the pleasure of the delusion of a different life when plodding down the road and occasionally actually be used off road, almost certainly in a manner that pretty much any car could be used but that's not really the point.
Are there more than 25k people in the Western economy who would buy a toy like this each year? Of course there are. The actual issue isn't whether the product is in line with the masses at all but whether the people who aren't on that fun bus actually have the money to buy this.
Blokes will take on huge debt, sums beyond their annual income just so they can rent a Porsche to be seen in public with so you can see that there are plenty of blokes who'll gear up £60k for a toy but I don't think that works for this product. I think the product desire is completely different. It's not about going heavily into debt to be able to step out into public life as someone you're not. That's the human mechanism behind such overt brands as Porsche and the near comical Aston Martin Bond toolism. Rent an Aston and stick some clothes on a credit card and somehow you're not longer Gary who's got a successful IT business and eats in public like a cement mixer while coughing over a stranger but now St John Smythe, the privately educated gentlemen and man of mystery. The illusion the Grenadier offers isn't for the benefit of strangers like other premium chattels but is a very selfish, personal illusion. It's all about allowing the buyer to more easily imagine they're away from everyone not in the midst of the throng being adored. It's a different self delusion and I'm not sure if those types of blokes rush to go into debt the same way. After all, they can buy a knackered Disco for £3k and stick some cross country bits and bobs on it to achieve the same enjoyable delusion.
It doesn't concern me that this car is woefully out of date and utterly disorientated from the mass market. In fact, I believe it is essential that it is as that is its USP. It has no need to handle sublimely on tarmac and no need to climb a boulder. It's about folk living a normal 9-5 life and this being a bit of escapism. I'm just not sure there are as many blokes wanting to rent a £60k+ offroad car as there are blokes will to rent £60k+ sports cars or SUVs for their pleasure?
We'll have to see but there's no shortage of NGO and industrial procurement being done out of Monaco and Geneva and those deals aren't purely driven by the price and running cost of the underlying product. There's no shortage of tinpot, third world nations who spend more on their military than their health and education.
I think £60k+ is a bloody stupid amount of money for a toy that's supposed to be the epitome of 20th century simplicity not cutting edge 21st century engineering and I suspect that the bulk of the target market may be excluded at that level but I'm a renowned tightwad who can't really fathom the logic behind most of the things folk with no money go and rent to ensure they never have any money.
If the Grenadier really had been £30k, not that I thought it ever could be and from the start I reckoned it was a £60k Home Counties toy but if it had been then I would probably have bought one to leave in the barn as the family smash up and bang about wagon that just would have slowly turned into a brilliant shed wagon over the next ten years. At £60k there's absolutely no way. Maybe if used values were to totally plummet then it would become a contender again but by then my children will be teenagers and things like dragging boats, trailers, bikes and crossing fields and using unmade roads on the continent will be less frequent.
But for me there is also the problem that this is a chattel where a single man has chosen to align that chattel to his own personal standards and morals and like with Tesla I find those morals and standards woefully lacking and the person does not represent my personal values one iota. In fact I find myself closer to the other end of the scale and paying my hard earned money to have something that represents those people isn't going to happen. For consumers like myself, we prefer the delusion that comes from the scumbag not being out front and centre and shouting.
Keep it pithy
wyson said:
LOL. I saw that and just thought, if I even try to read it, my eyes will glaze over. Much like the corporate culture and special initiative emails I get sent by my manager. Just laugh at the verbiage and stick them in a folder, just incase I get asked about them. Never do, so never bother to read them.
Discombobulate said:
Wow! Why use one word when 500 will do?
Keep it pithy
Keep it pithy
Each to their own. I enjoy a good read and sometimes it’s better to avoid brevity if there is room for misinterpretation.
Back to the original discussion, there is nothing to ‘justify’ the Grenadier (or, similarly, the Defender), you either ‘get’ it, or you don’t. It’s hugely subjective and not compulsory.
fblm said:
Digga said:
It's pitching at the same sort of market that Twisted have done very nicely out of.
FWIW, after years of Defenders, both 90's and 110's, running at least one since '98, the Twisted is a revelation.
I just don't get the whole (old style) defender thing. It's such a miserable hateful thing to drive or be driven in on the road. Yes you can dump a load of money into it to make it vaguely acceptable but even then I don't see what it offers that a 15 year old shagged out Touareg doesn't do better in every way for 1/5 of the price.FWIW, after years of Defenders, both 90's and 110's, running at least one since '98, the Twisted is a revelation.
From your post there are no prizes to see which camp you sit in!
I'm the other-I have a 110 Utility that is very heavily modded and sits on huge tyres and is even more of a handful to drive than the normal one. Every drive is an occasion though, it's not my daily and it gets featured on SM (not by me I hasten to add-the tuning firm Tweaked showcase it as do others) and it's a brilliant car in it's own way. Not comfy, less economical, you have to grip it by the scruff of its neck to get the best out of it.
I love it to bits and am keeping it. It's also holding it's value and then some due to the cult following.
If you don't 'get' them then thats cool....there are lots of us that do though.
DonkeyApple said:
I don't think goods need to be 'in touch' with a market to sell per se. 'The market' is after all not everyone just the majority, the norm, what is on trend with the masses. So for cars, 'the market' is whatever generic boxes the mass manufacturers are churning out. They absolutely have to pander at all times to 'the market' and must be 'in touch'. If they don't convince the masses that their product meets those criteria then they won't sell millions of them all around the world. The generic mass manufacturers have to sell hundreds of millions of identical boxes to hundreds of millions of humans who all want to think they're different, if not special. Porsche among others are absolute masters of selling mass produced goods in a way that make their millions of absolutely identical customers feel like they are on trend yet individuals for example.
Now with this car, one could argue that it doesn't want to be on trend or with the mainstream market and you can argue that it could never be mainstream so it would be a folly to market it as 'being in touch' or 'on trend'.
It's a toy for blokes with the ability to borrow £60+ to have some fun with. It's not really a serious product like a van or a pick-up, or 3 series BMW or any of those types of generic tools that are essential to people making a living or companies making a profit. There's no one and no business that needs a Grenadier. They're a luxury good like a sports car. It has no real purpose in the 21st century than as a personal indulgence.
It's not looking to sell millions to the masses so has absolutely no need to every contemplate 'being in trend' or any of the tools needed to shift millions of units to millions of punters. They're looking for 25k customers a year in a few years time after proving the product in the open market.
I suspect that those who talk about it not having excellent road handling are as out of touch as those who talk about crawling over a rock as if it's of any relevance or importance. It's just a toy for folk who like mucking about. It's no different to folk buying niche sports cars. They aren't racing drivers, they have no need for such a product. It's just a luxury purchase that gives the owner the pleasure of the delusion of a different life when plodding down the road and occasionally actually be used off road, almost certainly in a manner that pretty much any car could be used but that's not really the point.
Are there more than 25k people in the Western economy who would buy a toy like this each year? Of course there are. The actual issue isn't whether the product is in line with the masses at all but whether the people who aren't on that fun bus actually have the money to buy this.
Blokes will take on huge debt, sums beyond their annual income just so they can rent a Porsche to be seen in public with so you can see that there are plenty of blokes who'll gear up £60k for a toy but I don't think that works for this product. I think the product desire is completely different. It's not about going heavily into debt to be able to step out into public life as someone you're not. That's the human mechanism behind such overt brands as Porsche and the near comical Aston Martin Bond toolism. Rent an Aston and stick some clothes on a credit card and somehow you're not longer Gary who's got a successful IT business and eats in public like a cement mixer while coughing over a stranger but now St John Smythe, the privately educated gentlemen and man of mystery. The illusion the Grenadier offers isn't for the benefit of strangers like other premium chattels but is a very selfish, personal illusion. It's all about allowing the buyer to more easily imagine they're away from everyone not in the midst of the throng being adored. It's a different self delusion and I'm not sure if those types of blokes rush to go into debt the same way. After all, they can buy a knackered Disco for £3k and stick some cross country bits and bobs on it to achieve the same enjoyable delusion.
It doesn't concern me that this car is woefully out of date and utterly disorientated from the mass market. In fact, I believe it is essential that it is as that is its USP. It has no need to handle sublimely on tarmac and no need to climb a boulder. It's about folk living a normal 9-5 life and this being a bit of escapism. I'm just not sure there are as many blokes wanting to rent a £60k+ offroad car as there are blokes will to rent £60k+ sports cars or SUVs for their pleasure?
We'll have to see but there's no shortage of NGO and industrial procurement being done out of Monaco and Geneva and those deals aren't purely driven by the price and running cost of the underlying product. There's no shortage of tinpot, third world nations who spend more on their military than their health and education.
I think £60k+ is a bloody stupid amount of money for a toy that's supposed to be the epitome of 20th century simplicity not cutting edge 21st century engineering and I suspect that the bulk of the target market may be excluded at that level but I'm a renowned tightwad who can't really fathom the logic behind most of the things folk with no money go and rent to ensure they never have any money.
If the Grenadier really had been £30k, not that I thought it ever could be and from the start I reckoned it was a £60k Home Counties toy but if it had been then I would probably have bought one to leave in the barn as the family smash up and bang about wagon that just would have slowly turned into a brilliant shed wagon over the next ten years. At £60k there's absolutely no way. Maybe if used values were to totally plummet then it would become a contender again but by then my children will be teenagers and things like dragging boats, trailers, bikes and crossing fields and using unmade roads on the continent will be less frequent.
But for me there is also the problem that this is a chattel where a single man has chosen to align that chattel to his own personal standards and morals and like with Tesla I find those morals and standards woefully lacking and the person does not represent my personal values one iota. In fact I find myself closer to the other end of the scale and paying my hard earned money to have something that represents those people isn't going to happen. For consumers like myself, we prefer the delusion that comes from the scumbag not being out front and centre and shouting.
WOW theres an awful lot of petty observations about your view on certain drivers and the cars they can afford to drive. Now with this car, one could argue that it doesn't want to be on trend or with the mainstream market and you can argue that it could never be mainstream so it would be a folly to market it as 'being in touch' or 'on trend'.
It's a toy for blokes with the ability to borrow £60+ to have some fun with. It's not really a serious product like a van or a pick-up, or 3 series BMW or any of those types of generic tools that are essential to people making a living or companies making a profit. There's no one and no business that needs a Grenadier. They're a luxury good like a sports car. It has no real purpose in the 21st century than as a personal indulgence.
It's not looking to sell millions to the masses so has absolutely no need to every contemplate 'being in trend' or any of the tools needed to shift millions of units to millions of punters. They're looking for 25k customers a year in a few years time after proving the product in the open market.
I suspect that those who talk about it not having excellent road handling are as out of touch as those who talk about crawling over a rock as if it's of any relevance or importance. It's just a toy for folk who like mucking about. It's no different to folk buying niche sports cars. They aren't racing drivers, they have no need for such a product. It's just a luxury purchase that gives the owner the pleasure of the delusion of a different life when plodding down the road and occasionally actually be used off road, almost certainly in a manner that pretty much any car could be used but that's not really the point.
Are there more than 25k people in the Western economy who would buy a toy like this each year? Of course there are. The actual issue isn't whether the product is in line with the masses at all but whether the people who aren't on that fun bus actually have the money to buy this.
Blokes will take on huge debt, sums beyond their annual income just so they can rent a Porsche to be seen in public with so you can see that there are plenty of blokes who'll gear up £60k for a toy but I don't think that works for this product. I think the product desire is completely different. It's not about going heavily into debt to be able to step out into public life as someone you're not. That's the human mechanism behind such overt brands as Porsche and the near comical Aston Martin Bond toolism. Rent an Aston and stick some clothes on a credit card and somehow you're not longer Gary who's got a successful IT business and eats in public like a cement mixer while coughing over a stranger but now St John Smythe, the privately educated gentlemen and man of mystery. The illusion the Grenadier offers isn't for the benefit of strangers like other premium chattels but is a very selfish, personal illusion. It's all about allowing the buyer to more easily imagine they're away from everyone not in the midst of the throng being adored. It's a different self delusion and I'm not sure if those types of blokes rush to go into debt the same way. After all, they can buy a knackered Disco for £3k and stick some cross country bits and bobs on it to achieve the same enjoyable delusion.
It doesn't concern me that this car is woefully out of date and utterly disorientated from the mass market. In fact, I believe it is essential that it is as that is its USP. It has no need to handle sublimely on tarmac and no need to climb a boulder. It's about folk living a normal 9-5 life and this being a bit of escapism. I'm just not sure there are as many blokes wanting to rent a £60k+ offroad car as there are blokes will to rent £60k+ sports cars or SUVs for their pleasure?
We'll have to see but there's no shortage of NGO and industrial procurement being done out of Monaco and Geneva and those deals aren't purely driven by the price and running cost of the underlying product. There's no shortage of tinpot, third world nations who spend more on their military than their health and education.
I think £60k+ is a bloody stupid amount of money for a toy that's supposed to be the epitome of 20th century simplicity not cutting edge 21st century engineering and I suspect that the bulk of the target market may be excluded at that level but I'm a renowned tightwad who can't really fathom the logic behind most of the things folk with no money go and rent to ensure they never have any money.
If the Grenadier really had been £30k, not that I thought it ever could be and from the start I reckoned it was a £60k Home Counties toy but if it had been then I would probably have bought one to leave in the barn as the family smash up and bang about wagon that just would have slowly turned into a brilliant shed wagon over the next ten years. At £60k there's absolutely no way. Maybe if used values were to totally plummet then it would become a contender again but by then my children will be teenagers and things like dragging boats, trailers, bikes and crossing fields and using unmade roads on the continent will be less frequent.
But for me there is also the problem that this is a chattel where a single man has chosen to align that chattel to his own personal standards and morals and like with Tesla I find those morals and standards woefully lacking and the person does not represent my personal values one iota. In fact I find myself closer to the other end of the scale and paying my hard earned money to have something that represents those people isn't going to happen. For consumers like myself, we prefer the delusion that comes from the scumbag not being out front and centre and shouting.
Heaven forbid that people actually drive cars they want to and/or aspire to. And of course to own a sports car you MUST be some sort of professional driver.
Seriously? The good old 'English Disease' of petty jealousy of anyone driving a nicer car, having a certain lifestyle ++++
Long winter hours must just FLY by in your place.
2xChevrons said:
dpop said:
Is there some kind of clause from BMW when using their engine and gearbox that you can't change the shape of the hideous gear-selector??
It's bad enough in the Toyota Supra, looks like a joke here especially next to the hi-low range selector, and in the Morgan Plus Six... don't even get me started!
That aside I'm probably in the minority here in liking the Grenadier for the most part...
It's a type approval/safety thing. The gear selector isn't just a handle connected to a lever going into the innards of a mechanical epicyclic gearbox like it was in a old automatic. It's an electronic selector switch which is plugged into all the rest of the car's 'nervous system' and interacts with it in all sort of ways. The car's systems need to know which gear is being 'requested' by the selector, and that is obviously a safety-critical function. BMW and ZF will have worked together to get the selector 'talking' to the transmission and the engine, and then satisfied the various regulatory bodies that the selector won't start spewing errant 'select Drive in Sports Mode' signals if someone spills a bottle of Coke onto it or if it drives past an airport radar or something like that. It's bad enough in the Toyota Supra, looks like a joke here especially next to the hi-low range selector, and in the Morgan Plus Six... don't even get me started!
That aside I'm probably in the minority here in liking the Grenadier for the most part...
For Ineos it's simply not worth the money to develop a whole new selector, and in all likelihood BMW/ZF wouldn't allow anyone to put a new selector on their drivetrain combo.
I agree it looks awful - it doesn't fit the rest of the interior at all (although that looks awful in its own, but different way) and it looks especially stupid next to the very simple and traditional range selector. Another reason why, in an ideal world, the Grenadier would be offered with a manual option.
Out of interest, does INEOS have enough facilities around the world that would have use of a similar vehicle, increasing production runs and improving economies of scale? If used around large facilities and entirely away from the public road, CO2 wouldn't matter much.
Selling to yourself at cost is a heck of a way to buy a cheap fleet worldwide. Or is there an expert who can tell me id that idea is cobblers? (In which case, please do!)
Selling to yourself at cost is a heck of a way to buy a cheap fleet worldwide. Or is there an expert who can tell me id that idea is cobblers? (In which case, please do!)
blearyeyedboy said:
Out of interest, does INEOS have enough facilities around the world that would have use of a similar vehicle, increasing production runs and improving economies of scale? If used around large facilities and entirely away from the public road, CO2 wouldn't matter much.
Selling to yourself at cost is a heck of a way to buy a cheap fleet worldwide. Or is there an expert who can tell me id that idea is cobblers? (In which case, please do!)
I’d imagine you could buy quite a large number of cars for the development cost of creating your own…Selling to yourself at cost is a heck of a way to buy a cheap fleet worldwide. Or is there an expert who can tell me id that idea is cobblers? (In which case, please do!)
blearyeyedboy said:
Out of interest, does INEOS have enough facilities around the world that would have use of a similar vehicle, increasing production runs and improving economies of scale? If used around large facilities and entirely away from the public road, CO2 wouldn't matter much.
Selling to yourself at cost is a heck of a way to buy a cheap fleet worldwide. Or is there an expert who can tell me id that idea is cobblers? (In which case, please do!)
Not sure you'd do it this way, cheaper to pay someone else to sort it for you even at scale. Though Amazon did go with that idea with buying into Rivian and building vans; 100000+ of them.Selling to yourself at cost is a heck of a way to buy a cheap fleet worldwide. Or is there an expert who can tell me id that idea is cobblers? (In which case, please do!)
Best part of this debacle is watching one or two people who despite their apparent busy schedule and own long history of 'cockup & run before anyone notices the mistakes' just can't help hanging off every update and throwing in snark. You don't like it, we get it, move on, let it fail if it's going to.
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