Ineos Grenadier customer cars arrive at dealers
Discussion
skwdenyer said:
Toyota is still producing the 70 series Land Cruiser because there’s still global demand, for instance.
The W464 G-Wagen is in production because there’s sufficient global demand: https://ggb.mercedes-benz.com/en/vehicles/base-veh... - that’s the live axle version. And it starts at a price point way higher than the Grenadier.
The 70 Series is an anomaly, it's now in the position that Land Rover once was - a default choice, and the knowledge/parts/service support is huge. It's still an antique and objectively rubbish, and it won't be around forever (they've already had to reclassify it as a goods vehicle because it can't pass safety regulations).The W464 G-Wagen is in production because there’s sufficient global demand: https://ggb.mercedes-benz.com/en/vehicles/base-veh... - that’s the live axle version. And it starts at a price point way higher than the Grenadier.
The live-axle G-Class can't be bought by private customers - and Ineos don't seem to be pretending the Grenadier is a military vehicle (though the Walts would love it), and the consumer version is completely pointless.
If there's going to be a replacement for the 70 Series, I bet it will be another Toyota (or, at least, Japanese).
Edited by NomduJour on Saturday 3rd June 14:29
NomduJour said:
Yes I thought this earlier statement was a convenient “ untruth”. I’ve folded mine flat many a time. Let’s see skwdenyer vote for Ineos by buying one……or the old Landcruiser. Oh wait you can’t can you, they are just sold via a distribution point in Gibraltar. Even then if you need to get it via the road under its own steam to the arse end of nowhere you need special certificates for it to be driven across countries where it is now no longer allowed to be registered new. It’s an antique, perfectly functional but an antique.skwdenyer said:
And hence there’s an awful lot more enthusiasm for this vehicle in places like Australia, South Africa and, yes, the USA than here. If Ineos can tap into a market that appreciates what it is offering then it should do fine. There are a lot of people willing to pay a lot of money for durability and toughness.
I can’t see anyone in South Africa having much enthusiasm for it. The hilux/ranger or Land Cruiser if you have money is the benchmark here. No one is looking at the grenadier
God knows how much it will cost here if it does come here. Then there’s 0 aftersales support, where as every small town has a Ford and Toyota dealer
skwdenyer said:
A ladder chassis makes it harder to fold the seats flat - where will they go? Other makers fix this by lifting the boot floor and, say, hiding a spare wheel or fuel tank under there.
If I buy a Grenadier, I’ll most likely just put a drawer or platform in the rear to level the load bay. I’ll still have more space than in a new Defender.
So we’re clear, I’d rather they’d done something different BTW. A W463 G-Wagen has the battery under the floor behind the centre console, and I guess that’s not good for wading, adding extra batteries, etc.
Later models have it under the boot floor. An old-Defender style under-seat position’s no good if you want rear passengers to have any foot room.
I still think there’s a misunderstanding of the market the Grenadier is really aimed at.
Toyota is still producing the 70 series Land Cruiser because there’s still global demand, for instance.
The W464 G-Wagen is in production because there’s sufficient global demand: https://ggb.mercedes-benz.com/en/vehicles/base-veh... - that’s the live axle version. And it starts at a price point way higher than the Grenadier.
The promise - which may or may not be validated - of the Grenadier is that it will truly last like an old Land Cruiser or perhaps an old G-Wagen. Underneath it really is built like very little else. But that costs money, which you have to value in order to justify paying for.
That doesn’t mean it suits your needs. Frankly, in the UK, almost nobody needs what a proper G-Wagen or a Grenadier can offer. And hence there’s an awful lot more enthusiasm for this vehicle in places like Australia, South Africa and, yes, the USA than here. If Ineos can tap into a market that appreciates what it is offering then it should do fine. There are a lot of people willing to pay a lot of money for durability and toughness.
It's the ladder design that makes it much easier to factor in folding flat rear seating though. It's a harder thing to design when trying to use a monocoque structure and make it strong enough but even then they still manage it. If I buy a Grenadier, I’ll most likely just put a drawer or platform in the rear to level the load bay. I’ll still have more space than in a new Defender.
So we’re clear, I’d rather they’d done something different BTW. A W463 G-Wagen has the battery under the floor behind the centre console, and I guess that’s not good for wading, adding extra batteries, etc.
Later models have it under the boot floor. An old-Defender style under-seat position’s no good if you want rear passengers to have any foot room.
I still think there’s a misunderstanding of the market the Grenadier is really aimed at.
Toyota is still producing the 70 series Land Cruiser because there’s still global demand, for instance.
The W464 G-Wagen is in production because there’s sufficient global demand: https://ggb.mercedes-benz.com/en/vehicles/base-veh... - that’s the live axle version. And it starts at a price point way higher than the Grenadier.
The promise - which may or may not be validated - of the Grenadier is that it will truly last like an old Land Cruiser or perhaps an old G-Wagen. Underneath it really is built like very little else. But that costs money, which you have to value in order to justify paying for.
That doesn’t mean it suits your needs. Frankly, in the UK, almost nobody needs what a proper G-Wagen or a Grenadier can offer. And hence there’s an awful lot more enthusiasm for this vehicle in places like Australia, South Africa and, yes, the USA than here. If Ineos can tap into a market that appreciates what it is offering then it should do fine. There are a lot of people willing to pay a lot of money for durability and toughness.
It doesn't make any sense as either structure allows for it and any vehicle aiming to be a utility vehicle one would expect to at least have a nice big flat floor.
We can say that the 8 blokes in Australia get it but the real market is places like London. It's in those cities you find tens of thousands of people with £70k to lob at a bit of fun but even then you still expect the rear seats to go flat, your left leg to be given the same respect as your right, a sensible rear door arrangement and an absence of 1987 Matsus
tsu stereo plastics. It's just a bit of a shame before we even get to the elephant in the room which is that someone felt it needed to look like a different car in order to be of appeal when in reality that really does hamper it and it could have been it's own vehicle.
Mikebentley said:
NomduJour said:
Yes I thought this earlier statement was a convenient “ untruth”. I’ve folded mine flat many a time. Let’s see skwdenyer vote for Ineos by buying one……or the old Landcruiser. Oh wait you can’t can you, they are just sold via a distribution point in Gibraltar. Even then if you need to get it via the road under its own steam to the arse end of nowhere you need special certificates for it to be driven across countries where it is now no longer allowed to be registered new. It’s an antique, perfectly functional but an antique.
I've talked about my buying choices re the Grenadier. I like it so far. It isn't perfect - nothing is. I'm waiting to hear in-service experience before pushing the button. We all know how poor the New Defenders (and other JLR products) have been in service.
I'm fairly optimistic - not least because Toyota buy the BMW petrol engine (at least) for the Supra, and re-engineered some aspects of it, which Ineos have inherited. The auto box has been proven in the Ram 1500 TRX (a lot heaver, a lot more grunt). The transfer case and axles have a hell of a pedigree. It doesn't have an Ingenium engine
Steyr actually know what they're doing with this type of project.There's no doubt the vast majority of people don't do the kind of thing the Grenadier is designed for, and would be really well served by any of the models that are spoken about here and elsewhere - new Defenders and the like.
Price is an issue for most of us, of course, and there are plenty claiming the IG is expensive. But if you want to spec a New Defender 110 to the same payload as the Grenadier, you need the D300 (the D250 has a GVW of less than 3t, and JLR aren't offering a petrol 110 right now). That's a £67k base price. Both can tow 3.5t, but the ND only has a nose weight of max 150kg (half the IG's). Both can carry a full load and tow 3.5t (many others can't).
So like-for-like, pricing is pretty similar (despite people claiming otherwise). And, yes, I know the IG doesn't have electric seats and the like. But if that's important, the IG is unlikely to be relevant. How much is durability - reckoned (according to Magna Steyr) to meet or exceed a G-Wagen - worth? If the real world matches the testing results, that's very valuable to many. My neighbours with JLR products seem constantly to be in courtesy cars...
And finally, set against that, given how prices are moving, if I wait just a little longer then my old 110 V8 might cover a lot of the cost of a Grenadier
New Defender 6 cylinder diesels don’t have any issues that I am aware of? I believe the 4cy Ingenium has had issues in other applications though. My experience of twelve months with the Defender is entirely positive. If the tailgate is too high I can lower my air suspension via a convenient button either from the drivers seat or inside the load area.
I don’t mind the Grenadier and hope it sells. It is a shame Sir Jim couldn’t have designed his own vehicle not a cut and shut of an old Land Rover design with some obvious improvements and seemingly some designed in issues.. I love my 110 and genuinely wouldn’t want anything else and had the Ineos been available I wouldn’t have chosen it over the JLR car.
This is the crux as I see it most others wouldn’t either.
I don’t mind the Grenadier and hope it sells. It is a shame Sir Jim couldn’t have designed his own vehicle not a cut and shut of an old Land Rover design with some obvious improvements and seemingly some designed in issues.. I love my 110 and genuinely wouldn’t want anything else and had the Ineos been available I wouldn’t have chosen it over the JLR car.
This is the crux as I see it most others wouldn’t either.
I had a good poke around one at the Northern Shooting Show last month, and while I liked it, the lack of rear (2nd row) legroom was a deal-breaker. Even my young (9 & 11) children felt cramped in there, and way less room than my Land Cruiser (not to mention the lack of recline). It did seem well put together and nicely finished for what it is. I'm not keen on the colour options either, IMHO the green is too dark and the blue too light, but that is obviously very subjective.
LimaDelta said:
I had a good poke around one at the Northern Shooting Show last month, and while I liked it, the lack of rear (2nd row) legroom was a deal-breaker. Even my young (9 & 11) children felt cramped in there, and way less room than my Land Cruiser (not to mention the lack of recline). It did seem well put together and nicely finished for what it is. I'm not keen on the colour options either, IMHO the green is too dark and the blue too light, but that is obviously very subjective.
Was the "Utility Wagon" version or one of the Belstaff editions? It appears impossible right now to spec a non-Belstaff "road car" with the greater rear legroom.skwdenyer said:
There's no doubt the vast majority of people don't do the kind of thing the Grenadier is designed for, and would be really well served by any of the models that are spoken about here and elsewhere - new Defenders and the like.
What is designed for, though? Driving like the scraper tractor? Extreme campsite Walting? Looking a bit embarrassing?Can’t think of what it will do better than a Defender (or even a Land Crusier), and pinning your hopes solely on it being supremely reliable seems a bit specific, even if you do live in the Outback/on the moon/where real men wrestle bears etc.
NomduJour said:
skwdenyer said:
There's no doubt the vast majority of people don't do the kind of thing the Grenadier is designed for, and would be really well served by any of the models that are spoken about here and elsewhere - new Defenders and the like.
What is designed for, though? Driving like the scraper tractor? Extreme campsite Walting? Looking a bit embarrassing?Can’t think of what it will do better than a Defender (or even a Land Crusier), and pinning your hopes solely on it being supremely reliable seems a bit specific, even if you do live in the Outback/on the moon/where real men wrestle bears etc.
owner said:
Picked up my Magic mushroom 5 seat utility yesterday from Jardine, big thank you to those guys for the hand over!
This thing is the absolute nuts! Done 200 miles already. The colour is fantastic, so glad I went with gut instinct and picked it.
Having a few error gremlins pop up here and there, but that's it. Amazing on road performance, i was honestly blown away by how well it cruises at 80. Loads of power.
Its a pleasure to drive, all notions of bad steering went out the window after driving it home... put it this way, id have spent a lot of money to try and get my JK wrangler steering half as good as this.... its precise on the motorway, and coupled with hardly any body roll, makes it very confidence inspiring.
Played around with Low box, centre and F/R lockers in the field. Found they all work fine, the TC lever is just a mechanical one that needs a good positive activation. If anything its easier than my jeep was to get into low
The footrest, absolute non issue. I find it very comfortable (albeit im only 5'10)
Took it to the pub earlier to show a mate. After a test drive round the block, he's on the configurator spec'ing up a fieldmaster!
Lots more to choose from. Of course, if you've just dropped that sort of money then you'll be inclined to be positive about it, so let's see.This thing is the absolute nuts! Done 200 miles already. The colour is fantastic, so glad I went with gut instinct and picked it.
Having a few error gremlins pop up here and there, but that's it. Amazing on road performance, i was honestly blown away by how well it cruises at 80. Loads of power.
Its a pleasure to drive, all notions of bad steering went out the window after driving it home... put it this way, id have spent a lot of money to try and get my JK wrangler steering half as good as this.... its precise on the motorway, and coupled with hardly any body roll, makes it very confidence inspiring.
Played around with Low box, centre and F/R lockers in the field. Found they all work fine, the TC lever is just a mechanical one that needs a good positive activation. If anything its easier than my jeep was to get into low
The footrest, absolute non issue. I find it very comfortable (albeit im only 5'10)
Took it to the pub earlier to show a mate. After a test drive round the block, he's on the configurator spec'ing up a fieldmaster!
The electrical gremlins seem to fall into two categories: not letting the car "boot" before starting, and some software issues. Not ideal, but apparently there's a software update coming in a few weeks. Hopefully just one of those things.
For balance, there's a guy on YouTube who has sold his already, because he couldn't get on with the compromises inherent in having bought a commercial vehicle (speed limits, rear seats further forward, etc.). Whether he didn't do his research, or was mis-sold, I don't know, but he's got all his money back at least.
Oh and real users are reporting 22/23 mpg from the diesel, which isn't at all as bad as feared (albeit still not great!).
As for your questions, what can it do better than a Defender (for me)? Just a few:
- it will fit my wife's off-road power wheelchair (which won't fit in a new Defender, because the floor-ceiling height is too low - would have to use a trailer - one of many reasons why the D3 doesn't IMHO yet have a proper replacement in the JLR line-up);
- I am hoping it will be a lot more reliable than those Defenders belonging to people I know...;
- proper choice of decent tyres in 17" (just not available for the Defender at all);
Above all, and this really matters for me (because I'm sorry, I can't just be stranded in the middle of nowhere with a disabled wife - we can't just walk out for help), I trust the basic underpinnings more to stand up to unplanned / unexpected abuse when off the beaten track. In a new Defender, if the electronics give up, so does much of the off-road ability. That car is a fantastic piece of engineering. But I trust the Grenadier set-up to provide inherent off-road ability, rather than using electronics to fill in the gaps.
And, if one was really out in the "bush", the failure modes of a Grenadier's driveline are likely to be easier to fix with bush mechanics.
Everyone will have their own reasons. Ineos aren't trying to sell anything like as many Grenadiers as JLR sells Defenders. For me and my use case, however, the Grenadier looks like a very good bet. So, as said, I'm waiting to see what real-world in-service durability is like.
ZedLeg said:
The Grenadier is also full of electronics that'll strand you if they break though.
I wasn't talking about electronics. I was talking about underpinnings.If a sensor goes awol, the suspension will still behave precisely as it normally does - and there are no such sensors floating around waiting to get damaged.
In a new Defender, if a sensor goes awol, so does a lot of the off road capability. The new Defender really isn't very clever without all the traction control gubbins, adjustable-height suspension, etc.
As I say, each purchase decision is personal - a part of why there's lots to discuss on a forum like this
I'm certainly not trying to convince anyone an IG is the perfect choice for many, or even most, people. What I am saying is there are some people (hopefully, for Ineos, enough) who value the design choices made with this vehicle enough to buy it over an alternative.skwdenyer said:
LimaDelta said:
I had a good poke around one at the Northern Shooting Show last month, and while I liked it, the lack of rear (2nd row) legroom was a deal-breaker. Even my young (9 & 11) children felt cramped in there, and way less room than my Land Cruiser (not to mention the lack of recline). It did seem well put together and nicely finished for what it is. I'm not keen on the colour options either, IMHO the green is too dark and the blue too light, but that is obviously very subjective.
Was the "Utility Wagon" version or one of the Belstaff editions? It appears impossible right now to spec a non-Belstaff "road car" with the greater rear legroom.Fair enough, I think people are confusing comically over engineered for well built 
As far as I can see people are getting one because they want one (which is of course absolutely fine) and coming up with reasons to justify it. Even if it turned out to be as good as promised before launch, I'd always have trouble seeing past an older G Wagen etc and the substantial fund I'd have left to keep it running.
As far as I can see people are getting one because they want one (which is of course absolutely fine) and coming up with reasons to justify it. Even if it turned out to be as good as promised before launch, I'd always have trouble seeing past an older G Wagen etc and the substantial fund I'd have left to keep it running.
ZedLeg said:
Fair enough, I think people are confusing comically over engineered for well built
As far as I can see people are getting one because they want one (which is of course absolutely fine) and coming up with reasons to justify it. Even if it turned out to be as good as promised before launch, I'd always have trouble seeing past an older G Wagen etc and the substantial fund I'd have left to keep it running.
I won't disagree with you on that. And if it weren't for things like ULEZ, that would be viable. But increasingly you're just not going to be able to drive your older G-Wagen in many places.As far as I can see people are getting one because they want one (which is of course absolutely fine) and coming up with reasons to justify it. Even if it turned out to be as good as promised before launch, I'd always have trouble seeing past an older G Wagen etc and the substantial fund I'd have left to keep it running.
skwdenyer said:
Actual owners comments are interesting on the topic of this vehicle. Here's just one:
The electrical gremlins seem to fall into two categories: not letting the car "boot" before starting, and some software issues. Not ideal, but apparently there's a software update coming in a few weeks. Hopefully just one of those things.
For balance, there's a guy on YouTube who has sold his already, because he couldn't get on with the compromises inherent in having bought a commercial vehicle (speed limits, rear seats further forward, etc.). Whether he didn't do his research, or was mis-sold, I don't know, but he's got all his money back at least.
Oh and real users are reporting 22/23 mpg from the diesel, which isn't at all as bad as feared (albeit still not great!).
If your benchmark is a Wrangler, then I can understand why you might think a Grenadier is a marvellous leap forward.owner said:
Picked up my Magic mushroom 5 seat utility yesterday from Jardine, big thank you to those guys for the hand over!
This thing is the absolute nuts! Done 200 miles already. The colour is fantastic, so glad I went with gut instinct and picked it.
Having a few error gremlins pop up here and there, but that's it. Amazing on road performance, i was honestly blown away by how well it cruises at 80. Loads of power.
Its a pleasure to drive, all notions of bad steering went out the window after driving it home... put it this way, id have spent a lot of money to try and get my JK wrangler steering half as good as this.... its precise on the motorway, and coupled with hardly any body roll, makes it very confidence inspiring.
Played around with Low box, centre and F/R lockers in the field. Found they all work fine, the TC lever is just a mechanical one that needs a good positive activation. If anything its easier than my jeep was to get into low
The footrest, absolute non issue. I find it very comfortable (albeit im only 5'10)
Took it to the pub earlier to show a mate. After a test drive round the block, he's on the configurator spec'ing up a fieldmaster!
Lots more to choose from. Of course, if you've just dropped that sort of money then you'll be inclined to be positive about it, so let's see.This thing is the absolute nuts! Done 200 miles already. The colour is fantastic, so glad I went with gut instinct and picked it.
Having a few error gremlins pop up here and there, but that's it. Amazing on road performance, i was honestly blown away by how well it cruises at 80. Loads of power.
Its a pleasure to drive, all notions of bad steering went out the window after driving it home... put it this way, id have spent a lot of money to try and get my JK wrangler steering half as good as this.... its precise on the motorway, and coupled with hardly any body roll, makes it very confidence inspiring.
Played around with Low box, centre and F/R lockers in the field. Found they all work fine, the TC lever is just a mechanical one that needs a good positive activation. If anything its easier than my jeep was to get into low
The footrest, absolute non issue. I find it very comfortable (albeit im only 5'10)
Took it to the pub earlier to show a mate. After a test drive round the block, he's on the configurator spec'ing up a fieldmaster!
The electrical gremlins seem to fall into two categories: not letting the car "boot" before starting, and some software issues. Not ideal, but apparently there's a software update coming in a few weeks. Hopefully just one of those things.
For balance, there's a guy on YouTube who has sold his already, because he couldn't get on with the compromises inherent in having bought a commercial vehicle (speed limits, rear seats further forward, etc.). Whether he didn't do his research, or was mis-sold, I don't know, but he's got all his money back at least.
Oh and real users are reporting 22/23 mpg from the diesel, which isn't at all as bad as feared (albeit still not great!).
Where is anyone really going in the UK to get stranded? I’ve got a Defender because I like its Tonka toy looks and I wanted one. I don’t care what anyone else thinks about my choice we love it and really can’t see us changing it. All this it won’t leave me stranded when I’m in the Serengeti on my regular cross continental trips nonsense is just that. If you like it you like it. It’s no different from someone liking a pink Micra convertible it’s just what they want. It must be really annoying it’s not called a Defender though.
#skwdenyer the ability to put an off road mobility scooter in one is surely a very individual reason but if that’s what you require get your order in whilst residuals are strong. I always find it’s the true barometer of how much someone likes something if they are willing to put their hands in their pockets.
#skwdenyer the ability to put an off road mobility scooter in one is surely a very individual reason but if that’s what you require get your order in whilst residuals are strong. I always find it’s the true barometer of how much someone likes something if they are willing to put their hands in their pockets.
AstonZagato said:
skwdenyer said:
Actual owners comments are interesting on the topic of this vehicle. Here's just one:
The electrical gremlins seem to fall into two categories: not letting the car "boot" before starting, and some software issues. Not ideal, but apparently there's a software update coming in a few weeks. Hopefully just one of those things.
For balance, there's a guy on YouTube who has sold his already, because he couldn't get on with the compromises inherent in having bought a commercial vehicle (speed limits, rear seats further forward, etc.). Whether he didn't do his research, or was mis-sold, I don't know, but he's got all his money back at least.
Oh and real users are reporting 22/23 mpg from the diesel, which isn't at all as bad as feared (albeit still not great!).
If your benchmark is a Wrangler, then I can understand why you might think a Grenadier is a marvellous leap forward.owner said:
Picked up my Magic mushroom 5 seat utility yesterday from Jardine, big thank you to those guys for the hand over!
This thing is the absolute nuts! Done 200 miles already. The colour is fantastic, so glad I went with gut instinct and picked it.
Having a few error gremlins pop up here and there, but that's it. Amazing on road performance, i was honestly blown away by how well it cruises at 80. Loads of power.
Its a pleasure to drive, all notions of bad steering went out the window after driving it home... put it this way, id have spent a lot of money to try and get my JK wrangler steering half as good as this.... its precise on the motorway, and coupled with hardly any body roll, makes it very confidence inspiring.
Played around with Low box, centre and F/R lockers in the field. Found they all work fine, the TC lever is just a mechanical one that needs a good positive activation. If anything its easier than my jeep was to get into low
The footrest, absolute non issue. I find it very comfortable (albeit im only 5'10)
Took it to the pub earlier to show a mate. After a test drive round the block, he's on the configurator spec'ing up a fieldmaster!
Lots more to choose from. Of course, if you've just dropped that sort of money then you'll be inclined to be positive about it, so let's see.This thing is the absolute nuts! Done 200 miles already. The colour is fantastic, so glad I went with gut instinct and picked it.
Having a few error gremlins pop up here and there, but that's it. Amazing on road performance, i was honestly blown away by how well it cruises at 80. Loads of power.
Its a pleasure to drive, all notions of bad steering went out the window after driving it home... put it this way, id have spent a lot of money to try and get my JK wrangler steering half as good as this.... its precise on the motorway, and coupled with hardly any body roll, makes it very confidence inspiring.
Played around with Low box, centre and F/R lockers in the field. Found they all work fine, the TC lever is just a mechanical one that needs a good positive activation. If anything its easier than my jeep was to get into low
The footrest, absolute non issue. I find it very comfortable (albeit im only 5'10)
Took it to the pub earlier to show a mate. After a test drive round the block, he's on the configurator spec'ing up a fieldmaster!
The electrical gremlins seem to fall into two categories: not letting the car "boot" before starting, and some software issues. Not ideal, but apparently there's a software update coming in a few weeks. Hopefully just one of those things.
For balance, there's a guy on YouTube who has sold his already, because he couldn't get on with the compromises inherent in having bought a commercial vehicle (speed limits, rear seats further forward, etc.). Whether he didn't do his research, or was mis-sold, I don't know, but he's got all his money back at least.
Oh and real users are reporting 22/23 mpg from the diesel, which isn't at all as bad as feared (albeit still not great!).
autoevolution said:
On the road, this off-roader handles more comfortably than a [old] Defender because it hardly leans, and the ride comfort is exceptional. Although it weighs around 2.7 tons (5,952.5 lbs), the Grenadier moves smoother than the old Defender or Wrangler. The suspension is extremely quiet for a 4x4, and, at this point, only the Mercedes-Benz G-Class is on a similar level. The difference is even more noticeable in off-road conditions, where ride comfort is also at a high level, much better, for example, than in a Jeep Wrangler, where you feel every bump.
As regards durability, Ineos is clearly not afraid to go after the Africa market, judging by this prototype "safari bus" spotted a few months ago:The one thing that does entertain me is the reaction to the "safari windows" on the Grenadier - for those of us old enough, that's just a standard tilt / remove sunroof, as fitted to every other repmobile back in the 80s/90s. Full marks to Ineos for selling something that, back in the day, was perceived as a real pain of a cheapskate solution (having to risk breaking your roof if you wanted it open) as a premium feature
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