Is There a Market for a Mid-Engine Coupe Kit?

[kambites]

I'd imagine air-con would add a fair amount of both weight and cost. I wonder if anyone makes a small stand-alone electrically driven air con module which could be used. Presumably they must exist for caravans, boats, etc.

[300bhp/ton]

I thought this was a kit or low volume production, not mainstream?

[Equus]

300bhp/ton said:

I thought this was a kit or low volume production, not mainstream?

It is, but I've lost count of the number of kit car manufacturers who thought they were onto the 'next big thing', yet came and went without selling a single car.

Even in the kit market, you need enough appeal to sell more than a handful after you weed out all the people who say they'd buy one, for sure, but then mysteriously evaporate or make excuses when you hit the market.

For instance, I'm looking at the car history on your profile and not seeing a single kit car listed.

So, if James were to build a T-bar targa coupe with no air conditioning, to suit you, can you really, faithfully swear that you would buy one?

[EddyP]

The problem is, to make a high quality coupe, with doors that open and close properly, windows that go up and down, heating, air con etc..... is just too expensive for the kit car market, it really does complicate things significantly.

A fantastic looking coupe already exists, but it doesn't sell



Maybe it doesn't sell because it costs about £30- 35K to build a decent one?

Maybe it's something else.

I don't think anyone will ever create a car to this standard for the kit market, if you have to go through all of the development that Phantom/Vortex did you'd be well into 6 maybe even 7 figure costs.

[ugg10]

Sculptural Engineering Larini / gtm balista was up for sale recently, that would fit the bill.

[Toltec]

EddyP said:

The problem is, to make a high quality coupe, with doors that open and close properly, windows that go up and down, heating, air con etc..... is just too expensive for the kit car market, it really does complicate things significantly.

A fantastic looking coupe already exists, but it doesn't sell



Maybe it doesn't sell because it costs about £30- 35K to build a decent one?

Maybe it's something else.

I don't think anyone will ever create a car to this standard for the kit market, if you have to go through all of the development that Phantom/Vortex did you'd be well into 6 maybe even 7 figure costs.

I like those, however once you are in the £30K+ region it would be competing with the Porsche Cayman or even the older Nobles. I think the market would be restricted to people that want more to build a sports car rather than just buy a sports car, it certainly will not be to get cheap performance.

I have a Shelsley T2, it is a soft top, but some owners have built T-top versions so it could be made as a coupe, not exactly a raging success and you could build one for about £20k.

[300bhp/ton]

I agree. If price gets too high, then you either need to go really high and niche. Or it'll likely flop due to competing with sorted mainstream cars. I don't personally think like this and it's not what I'd do. But I suspect it is a very real problem.

And for close to £35-40k I'd be looking at Lister Bell for a Stratos.

Re: air con. I still don't see the appeal in a lightweight sports car, less so if it has a removable roof. I do have air con on one of my sporty cars. But I never use it, if it's nice I take the roof off. When I get round to it I was going to remove the compressor and associated bits.

[Frankthered]

EddyP said:

The problem is, to make a high quality coupe, with doors that open and close properly, windows that go up and down, heating, air con etc..... is just too expensive for the kit car market, it really does complicate things significantly.

A fantastic looking coupe already exists, but it doesn't sell



Maybe it doesn't sell because it costs about £30- 35K to build a decent one?

Maybe it's something else.

I don't think anyone will ever create a car to this standard for the kit market, if you have to go through all of the development that Phantom/Vortex did you'd be well into 6 maybe even 7 figure costs.

Commercial viability will be the issue. The Phantom/Vortex is a wonderful car. I wouldn't ever buy one because it's just too expensive. The Libra, as good as it was, would fall into the same category for me.

The world of kit cars has changed. There was a time when kit coupes and even practical(ish) convertibles made sense because the mainstream didn't didn't offer very much and the kit could be put on the road for less and had a reasonable chance of out-performing the mainstream offerings.

These days, there are so many used coupes and convertibles around that kit cars have to work much harder to have a USP than they did in the past. The mainstream cars are also cheaper relative to kits. Why would anyone go to the trouble of building a Phantom for £35k when you could buy a Boxster or a Cayman and have whatever needs fixing fixed for less?

The mainstream can't match the thrills of a Seven or an Exo, certainly not for the money. Nor does the mainstream offer replicas and, although they are more expensive, they are worthwhile because they are cheaper than the originals.

The sort of cars we're discussing on this thread fall between the two - more expensive than a Seven, but don't really offer anything more than mainstream products already do better.

If you want a mid-engined coupe kit, don't you fancy a Stratos??

[dom9]

To be fair; I'd completely forgotten about The Phantom/Vortex.

It is a handsome beast that has aged well.

I always wondered why they didn't do 'better'. There was maybe a bit of mixed-marketing, I seem to remember.

They were, perhaps, trying to make it too mainstream and compete with the big boys. Weren't they trying to shift turn keys, mostly?

Either way, that was apparently a well resolved bit of kit. Is it still being sold? I know there was an 'update' with a 5-cyl engine or was that 'private'?

Probably wouldn't take a huge number of updates to refresh that. Nice, normally aspirated engine and lower entry price than say a Cayman and perhaps it has a USP?

[rdodger]

I think that sums it up Frank. Most people would rather have an old £15k Cayman than a new £15k Libra. Though a Libra would have cost £18k to build when they were last available!

Yes I would love a Stratos replica. I don't know why as other replicas really don't appeal. I'm really not a fan of replicas in general but a Lister Bell Stratos is the stuff of my dreams. Especially since they seem to be one of very few kits that built correctly could offer a modest profit when sold. As long as you don't account for your own labour.

The thing that winds me up is that most of the re-body offerings are replicas. At Stoneleigh the new Abster was a revelation. A professionally designed kit that looked like it could have come from a main stream manufacturer. More of those would be welcome.

I hate to say it but I think the current kit car offerings are catering to what the market wants. Good value basic, track capable cars, rebody replicas and high end replicas.

[Stuart Mills]

A modular approach could be the answer.
First we take a middy layout chassis. Then various panels are offered:-
Option 1. Front and rear clams.
Option 2. Windscreen frame or fly screen.
Option 3. Doors or door bar for side impact protection.
Option 4. Hard top, or soft top.
A customisable Coupe that can be purchased in stages or modified to suit the time of year.

The issues,
1. The chassis would need to be designed to be stiff despite having doors reveals and no roof.
2. The door reveals would need to be designed to look acceptable without doors fitted.
3. The chassis would be potentially partly exposed so it would need to be an acceptable form.

The solutions,
1. Perhaps an attractive round tube chassis.
2. Incorporate a roof structure (cage) to close the open box thus compensating for lack of structure in the door areas.
3. Design based around a single donor to keep costs down.

Exocet is now available with a screen, soft top and side screens but a Coupe with a modular body as opposed to the simple Exocet panels could be desirable. Coupe styling wise I am not sure, it maybe a difficult task for a modular kit to look good in all guises, food for thought though.

To my mind unless the coupe offers something that mainstream manufacturers do not then it will be a slow sell.
There needs to be a point, a hook to draw potential customers in, not simply because you can build it yourself but the fact that you cannot buy it "turn key" in any case.

Unique selling points for current kits are;
Body conversions, an old tatty car that has passed its sell by date turned it into something beautiful like the Abster.
Cobra kits offer huge road presence and are often better than the original depending on depth of pocket.
MX5 is almost 50 % heavier than Exocet and the exo chassis is stiffer, so performance is boosted dramatically.
7's offer that traditional iconic style in a lightweight fun/performance car at a budget to suit the builder.
Replicas offer something special that can be much better value than the original.

Question, what does the intended coupe offer that will be its USP?

[Equus]

Stuart Mills said:

The issues,
1. The chassis would need to be designed to be stiff despite having doors reveals and no roof.
2. The door reveals would need to be designed to look acceptable without doors fitted.
3. The chassis would be potentially partly exposed so it would need to be an acceptable form.

You've missed by the biggest one by far, which is refinement.

Modular designs just multiply the number of opportunities for leaks, rattles, draughts and misalignments.

If you're marketing a coupe as a genuine alternative to a production car, it needs to be properly weathertight, reasonably well soundproofed, with a properly functional HV/AC system, and not rattle and clonk as though it's about to fall to pieces every time you run over a manhole cover.

All the past 'budget' coupe kit cars that can claim to have had real success (GTM, Midas, Quantum) achieved this in comparison to their production contemporaries.

The problem, as Frank and Roger have pointed out, is that the minimum commercially viable price of a kit coupe will buy you an awfully good mainstream production car these days.

[Stuart Mills]

does anyone see a potential USP in a coupe that will be justifiable in terms of development cost and manage to compete with the big boys?
Constructive criticism can be helpful but suggestions of positive solutions would be more useful. Hopefully between us we can find an answer.

[ajprice]

I think a rebody would be a better option, personally. Something like that MGF rebody posted. Use something like a Boxster, Elise/VX220 or Smart Roadster as the base, and build up from there.

There's a project that has been posted before on PH that is a GT40 body on an Elise chassis http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=157...

There's the (admittedly high end) Gullwing-America P/904 based on a Boxster http://www.topgear.com/car-news/you-want-porsche-p...

and a few thoughts by people about using a Lotus as a base for a Stratos kit, like here http://oppositelock.kinja.com/idea-to-rebody-a-car....

A Smart rebody nearly happened a few years ago as an AC Ace http://www.evo.co.uk/smart/roadster/8342/smart-roa...

If you can't beat them, join them kidnap them and do some plastic surgery

[Equus]

Stuart Mills said:

...suggestions of positive solutions would be more useful.

Well, items 1 & 2 of your list of 'issues' are fairly easily resolved by means of deep sills and detachable gullwing doors. You might even sell one to 300bhp/ton, if you have a delete option on the aircon, but I wouldn't stake your life savings on it.

That's nothing that hasn't been tried before, though:






Item 3; There's no real need to expose the chassis, but if you want to expose the sills, use a punt or bathtub-style monocoque tub.

I don't personally regard bodykits as 'proper' kit cars. Each to their own, but the idea of clagging a badly-proportioned GT40-lookalike bodyshell onto something like a Lotus Elise S1 - versions of which are already appreciating classics - strikes me as a bit nuts. Even decent MX5 Mk.1's are better off preserved in original form than turned into something that most people with any taste or engineering sensibilities will just laugh at.

[rdodger]

Stuart Mills said:

A modular approach could be the answer.
First we take a middy layout chassis. Then various panels are offered:-
Option 1. Front and rear clams.
Option 2. Windscreen frame or fly screen.
Option 3. Doors or door bar for side impact protection.
Option 4. Hard top, or soft top.
A customisable Coupe that can be purchased in stages or modified to suit the time of year.

The issues,
1. The chassis would need to be designed to be stiff despite having doors reveals and no roof.
2. The door reveals would need to be designed to look acceptable without doors fitted.
3. The chassis would be potentially partly exposed so it would need to be an acceptable form.

The solutions,
1. Perhaps an attractive round tube chassis.
2. Incorporate a roof structure (cage) to close the open box thus compensating for lack of structure in the door areas.
3. Design based around a single donor to keep costs down.

Exocet is now available with a screen, soft top and side screens but a Coupe with a modular body as opposed to the simple Exocet panels could be desirable. Coupe styling wise I am not sure, it maybe a difficult task for a modular kit to look good in all guises, food for thought though.

To my mind unless the coupe offers something that mainstream manufacturers do not then it will be a slow sell.
There needs to be a point, a hook to draw potential customers in, not simply because you can build it yourself but the fact that you cannot buy it "turn key" in any case.

Unique selling points for current kits are;
Body conversions, an old tatty car that has passed its sell by date turned it into something beautiful like the Abster.
Cobra kits offer huge road presence and are often better than the original depending on depth of pocket.
MX5 is almost 50 % heavier than Exocet and the exo chassis is stiffer, so performance is boosted dramatically.
7's offer that traditional iconic style in a lightweight fun/performance car at a budget to suit the builder.
Replicas offer something special that can be much better value than the original.

Question, what does the intended coupe offer that will be its USP?

Stuart. That is pretty much what Factory Five in the USA have done with their 818. It's available with the same chassis as a track car with fly screen, convertible with full screen & doors and a proper Coupe.
http://www.factoryfive.com/kits/project-818/

I think the Coupe version is really good looking. The single donor car being Subaru Impreza is cheap, readily available and makes good power. Inline engine transaxle with 4wd blanked off.

If it was available in the UK with a few tweaks to pass IVA...... Have you considered being an agent or importer?

[Equus]

rdodger said:

...It's available with the same chassis as a track car with fly screen, convertible with full screen & doors and a proper Coupe.
http://www.factoryfive.com/kits/project-818/

Any idea how that works with the doors?

The only chassis image they have on their website seems to have rather a lot of tubes in the way:

[EddyP]

dom9 said:

To be fair; I'd completely forgotten about The Phantom/Vortex.

It is a handsome beast that has aged well.

I always wondered why they didn't do 'better'. There was maybe a bit of mixed-marketing, I seem to remember.

They were, perhaps, trying to make it too mainstream and compete with the big boys. Weren't they trying to shift turn keys, mostly?

Either way, that was apparently a well resolved bit of kit. Is it still being sold? I know there was an 'update' with a 5-cyl engine or was that 'private'?

Probably wouldn't take a huge number of updates to refresh that. Nice, normally aspirated engine and lower entry price than say a Cayman and perhaps it has a USP?

I agree, marketing hasn't been great, this is the problem when you have a bunch of engineers trying to do marketing, having spent all the budget on the car's development.
There was a phase of trying to sell turn key cars, that flopped.
There was quite a lot of effort put in a few years ago to try and push it, I was involved with that but it only resulted in two cars being sold, again due to pricing IMO
The Volvo T5 car is mine, other cars now have the 4 cyl Ford Ecoboost engine (300 bhp version).

It's quite amazing how it all adds up though:

Kit price £13,995
Door glass £100
Engine/gearbox ecoboost with ECU - £3k-4k
Wheels and tyres - £1.5k
Paint - £3k
Trim - £2k
Seats - £750
Wiring harness - £2k
Brakes - £300
Air con bits - £1000
Odd and sods etc... ?

That's almost £26k, I'm sure there's bits I've forgotten and it's so easy to add much more to it, once you decide you want a different power train or alcantara trim etc....

How could it be made cheaper?

Do your own wiring harness, use a different power train, do a cheap trim.
If you were really really trying hard I think it would be possible to get one on the road for £20K, which I think is what I spent originally, I then spent god knows how much doing the T5 engine conversion, re-wiring it, doing an incredible interior etc.... there's at least £1000 worth of leather in the car.

I think comments from other guys are right, the only cheap way these days is to do a rebody, start on a nice Boxster or similar and you have a good interior to start with. As for the comments about fixing a Boxster cheaper than a kit, forget it, I've had a Boxster that had a £500 bill just to fix the heater controls, at least in the kit they're a £10 set of controls out of an MGF that won't go wrong!

[300bhp/ton]

Equus said:

I like that, never seen one before. Did they actually make and sell them?

[Equus]

300bhp/ton said:

Did they actually make and sell them?

They did, but total production was bugger all.

Usual story: everybody wants one, until you actually offer it to them for a commercially viable price.

I think I've only ever seen one, in the wild.