Three wheeler Cabin Scooter Design

Three wheeler Cabin Scooter Design

Author
Discussion

ajprice

28,202 posts

199 months

Monday 9th February 2009
quotequote all
Agreed on that, stig. I think the E-Trike with a body would be a good starting point, rather than a small scooter engine (those things sound horrible, like an angry wasp! lol).

911hillclimber

486 posts

198 months

Monday 9th February 2009
quotequote all
The electric way sounds great, but nobody has done it yet.
Charge the battery pack while at work is nicer still on solar and reverse is certainly sorted!

I am sure that an accountant will crush the idea, and so would the likes of Ford due to threats of killing sales of small cars.

Make these in China or Turkey etc and things can be different, even Africa!

What if the Government leased them out, or you payed by the mile for them to a leasing company like renting a photocopier and paying for it's useage?
You need to be as imaginative commercially as well as engineering to get such a vehicle acceptable to a public growingly concerned with energy use and polution.
Discussing this with my engineers in the design office today got a very mixed reaction, mainly negative.

We still have the need for one car to do everything. In this case we have to wait for Honda etc to deliver the goods at normal cost and size.

Maybe it's back to the one-off builder after all!

Small Vespas sound awful, but the much larger semi-bike 'scooters' are far from that.

fuoriserie

Original Poster:

4,560 posts

272 months

Tuesday 10th February 2009
quotequote all
I would have never thougt that a few rough sketches would have gotten this far in the discussion........

I believe that a lowcost single seater, with some sort of protection could be a solution, in replacing your classic scooter, for your round trip daily work commute, especially in mainland Europe congested city centres, were parking is hard to find, roads are narrow, traffic is out of control....

But you would need local goverment incentives and legislation to push for these type of vehicles, being them electric or petrol, or maybe with CNG, very common in the south of Europe.

A pubblic media campaign would help in showing that you don't need a 1.2ton car driving to work everyday with a single person on board, it's a total waste of space, energy and efficiency..........you could just keep the wasted petrol for your weekend track day sportscar instead...biggrin

Things are changing and even if most of us are still resisting the change, due to our psycholigical downsizing in the standard of living most of us we will be experiencing in the coming months,.......but a modern,sleek and fun looking 3 wheeler could be a partial solution to certain transportation needs........

I believe that by 2010-11, we will be ready for a change, and our transportation needs will have to take into real consideration, vehicles that have a porpouse.

You can still have your family car, for youe weekend trips to the mountains, beaches or wherever, but for your daily commute to work, at least 25-35% of people wouldn't need more than a single seater to go to work!

I also think that production of such a vehicle, could still be made in Europe, without resorting to have China, India or Africa to manufacture it.......with the economic crisis we are going through, wages will be certainly become lower, unfortunately i would have to add....frown, but make certain business concepts viable here in Europe.

Cheers
Italo







Edited by fuoriserie on Tuesday 10th February 08:54

qdos

825 posts

213 months

Tuesday 10th February 2009
quotequote all
I couldn't agree more with you Italo, In fact it's something I've been doing for the past few years by driving quadricycles for the short local journeys and using the family car for the long trips. When you actually come to do it you find it really is crazy to be driving a big 5 seater car around when 90% of the time it's just one person doing a few miles up the road.

Electric vehicles do this type of journey very well and it's something I'm heavily involved in. Hopefully in the near future we'll be able to show folk some machines that meet the real requirements as opposed to what folk think they need. Really we're all lead by the marketing guys and they like to flog us all the latest piece of bling usually in the form of a BMW or BMW wannabe

Yeah yeah I know I'm a cynic but that's why I usually build my own cars to prove to folk we don't all have to be sheep wink I have to confess I did once have a BMW 525 company car paperbag woops bahhhhhh

911hillclimber

486 posts

198 months

Tuesday 10th February 2009
quotequote all
Last year i wrote a small article to Engineer Magazine about this topic. Mass people movement to reducr emmisions, costs, space (on the road and parking) yet to make the ownership 'desirable'.

The spec of such a vehicle could be elecric/hybrid single seater stable and very easy to use. Cool in the summer, warm in the winter etc.

These are all attributes that are expected today, even in economic crisis.

The next few years will be the Years of the Engineer, or rather the Years of the Innovator.

You need the innovation first, the sponsor second and the engineering to turn a dream to reality. I think for us all the second player is the hardest to find and keep.

Yes, one great sketch has hatched all this dialog which is a very healthy thing. Lots of ways to achieve the same result.

Who can put here on the table a good sound controllable electric drivetrain with a good range? (say 50 miles?) with regenerative braking?(cheaply)
I think we are all thinking to the same convergence point, but beyond the use of a big caravan battery or fork truck battery?
Who can give a certain recharge rate to restore the range in 6 hours (a working day) between going to work with the light on, to going home the same way (plus wipers etc)

Once you have that you can compete really well against a lean burning petrol/diesel in a super light chassis.

mrmaggit

10,146 posts

251 months

Tuesday 10th February 2009
quotequote all
I'd certainly be interested in something like this.

I work three miles from home, normally use the Ka, or bike if it's not raining in the morning. I'd use the push-bike except there are big hills between each place, in both directions, and quite a few tricky junctions.

All in 30mph limits, so something with Ka-like performance or better with weather protection would be fine by me.

fuoriserie

Original Poster:

4,560 posts

272 months

Tuesday 10th February 2009
quotequote all
A bit of topic on 3 wheelers....,found on the BBC, but info on the economy, or what some are predicting it to be in the future for the UK, and Europe is in a similar shape in my opinion........., and if this info turns out to be only half true........a cabin scooter could be my means of transport pretty soon.....biggrin



The financial crisis will be "more extreme and more serious than that of the 1930s", cabinet minister Ed Balls has predicted.

Mr Balls, a former economic adviser to Gordon Brown, said the global recession would be the most serious for "over 100 years", the Yorkshire Post reported.

He told a Labour conference that these were "seismic events that are going to change the political landscape".

The Conservatives said the remarks were "staggering and very worrying".

Mr Balls, the schools secretary, made the comments at Labour's Yorkshire conference at the weekend, the newspaper reported.

Mr Balls and Downing Street have attempted to play down the significance of his remarks, insisting he had been pointing out the unique nature of the global financial crisis and was not predicting that the impact on ordinary people would be worse than that experienced during the Great Depression of the 1930s.





According to the Yorkshire Post, he said: "The economy is going to define our politics in this region and in Britain in the next year, the next five years, the next 10 and even the next 15 years.

"These are seismic events that are going to change the political landscape.

"I think that this is a financial crisis more extreme and more serious than that of the 1930s and we all remember how the politics of that era were shaped by the economy."

Mr Balls, MP for Normanton, added: "We now are seeing the realities of globalisation, though at a speed, pace and ferocity which none of us have seen before.

"The reality is that this is becoming the most serious global recession for, I'm sure, over 100 years as it will turn out."

'Unprecedented'

For the Conservatives, shadow Treasury minister Phillip Hammond said: "This is a staggering and very worrying admission from a cabinet minister and Gordon Brown's closest ally in the Treasury over the past 10 years.



"We are being told that not only we are facing the worst recession in 100 years, but that it will last for over a decade - far longer than Treasury forecasts predict."

He added: "Is Ed Balls spilling the beans here and telling us that the government sees the situation as slightly more serious than they have tried to portray?"

Liberal Democrat Treasury spokesman Vince Cable contrasted Mr Balls' assessment with comments from fellow minister Baroness Vadera, who recently said she could see "green shoots" of economic recovery.

He said: "Instead of giving clear and consistent leadership, government ministers are oscillating between complacent optimism and this doom-laden picture of Armageddon. Surely the truth lies between the two?"

A spokesman for Mr Balls insisted that the prime minister and Chancellor Alistair Darling had highlighted the "unprecedented speed and ferocity" of the crisis "time and time again".

He said: "The unprecedented global nature of this crisis and its impact on the global financial sector is affecting every single economy in the world.

"The Bank of England agrees with this analysis. As the deputy governor of the Bank of England, Charlie Bean, said in October: 'This is a once in a lifetime crisis, and possibly the largest financial crisis of its kind in human history."'

He added the minister had been referring in his speech to the differences between Labour and the Conservatives on the economy.

Last week, Mr Brown used the word "depression" during prime minister's questions, but his spokesman later said this had been a slip of the tongue.

The Conservatives urged him to clarify his comments and be careful with language.

The Commons Treasury Select Committee is due to question the bosses and former bosses of the UK's biggest banks on Tuesday and Wednesday over the causes of the financial crisis.







Edited by fuoriserie on Tuesday 10th February 15:42

911hillclimber

486 posts

198 months

Tuesday 10th February 2009
quotequote all
The point to me (I am a Director of Design engineering for a large Group) is this gloom has a very very real opportunity.

All of the world is facing this environmental change, and not just CO etc, ploitics, mind set are all going to change for good.

There are huge opportunities to win from this if you can concieve the product to meet a real need.
You have to identify the need accuratly, and act very quickly. This can be a 'global' product, not just a UK one.

To this actual topic:

We are petrol heads (I race cars as a hobby) and so we must be careful of enthusing too much, but that is why you need a sponsor to calm things down (not dampen note)and keep feet on the ground. Every inventor dreams his baby is a knock-out till market realities hit.

I've done new products for just over 30 years now, and have 'been there... etc'.

This is why I challenge anyone on here to show me today a drive train that will meet our friend's driving habit above. Think of those hills and battery resource. Hydrocarbons are a powerful convienient power source/medium. Easy to get, easy to control and hugely potent.
Joe Public understands it too (and diesel).

This idea of the Trike is great. It is not new, but it is close to being an acceptable device as public mood changes.
It is also a great commercial opportunity for the right group of people.

If only I was 30!

I hope someone will make this vehicle in 2009 while the mood is here, but is it really the right time?
Just do not ask a Bank Manager, but find an entreperure (sp)with b@lls.

I have sketched the chassis now and the body bubbles using a big scooter out back. Just the bloody reversing method and the all important canopy.

robcollingridge

622 posts

286 months

Tuesday 10th February 2009
quotequote all
[quote=fuoriserie]i was playing around with a few ideas this weekend, over a modern cabin scooter 3 wheeler.

A lowcost single seater, with a scooter engine, or electric drive or hybrid, if Piaggio supplied me their engine.....biggrin

A rough sketch of my idea,with a sliding and pivoting door to enter the scooter.

What do you guys think ? are we going to see something similar in the future of our city centers?



This looks remarkably like this: http://lumeneo.fr/welcome.html

Rob

Auntieroll

543 posts

187 months

Tuesday 10th February 2009
quotequote all
I tend to agree with 911Hillclimber about the energy sourcing,ie piston engine.

As it stands at the moment it looks as though Hydrogen,hydrocarbon or natural gas fuelled piston engines are the only truly practicable energy sourcesfor the near future,there are various reasons for this,which mainly revolve around cost.

Piston engine technology is pretty good despite what the Green lobby would have us believe,the big bugbear to be surmounted,I feel is the mass of todays vehicles as the MPG of even a new "MINI" could be drastically improved with a reduction in weight(it weighs about the same as a Merc 190 for heaven's sake!)as would ditching the catalytic converters.If hydrogen was used as the power source there would be virtually zero pollution from the exhaust.

All this is in an ideal world though,with the increasingly large cars that seem to be the norm nowadays (just compare the sizes of the old and new Mini,Fiesta,Polo or Fiat 500 )all this extra mass all takes energy to accelerate,as Newton proved years ago.

On the other hand ,just how many of us would fancy commuting in a vehicle which makes the occupant/s feel vulnerable ,(anyone who is a Motorcyclist or Seven driver knows where I'm coming from)such a vehicle would surely meet with huge market resistance.C5 anyone?

The Green aspect,needs very careful examination, especially with the various practical problems regarding battery management by the user,the service life of Lipo batteries being only a few hundred cycles at the moment, the very real attendant risk of fires resulting if accident damaged and the disposal of massive amounts of end of life cells,are just a few factors to be considered.

Fuel cells,I hear you say,well the majors are spending loads of money on R+D at the moment but cost is too high at the moment,anyway it is reckoned
that they will be supplied on a lease basis in order to recoup the development costs.These will undoubtedly become common place in the next few decades.

I don't mean to appear negative,far from it,I think Italo's designs are very practical and realistic,I only wish I had a really serious lottery win to enable his talent to be showcased,at least with a well styled and executed vehicle there is far more chance of changing the perceptions of the public but there needs to be a sea change in public attitudes for them to run with this type of vehicle,a lightweight four wheeler would probably be easier to sell to the average commuter due to the negative perceptions of trikes which has been reinforced by such as J.Carrot ,J. Clarkson et al,however unjust they may be.

The forthcoming economic D........n (Peter said not to mention the 'D'word because it might not happen if we all stick our heads in the sand /remain positive and the government/s can print notes quickly enough to engineer a soft(er) landing...fat chance!) and resultant carnage resulting from people having far less cash to run vehicles with,coupled with the desire to retain their independent transport, may provide such a change,this will mean many majors scaling down on production of the larger cars in favour of smaller,lighter more economical vehicles ,assuming the backlog of unsold cars can be shifted,there will almost inevitably be many,many more closures of car production plants worldwide,hopefully we shouldn't be hit too badly as imported cars will become increasingly expensive as the £ weakens thus hopefully making it more sensible to manufacture at home?

Sorry, strayed off topic and onto soapbox but Italo has a knack of starting long running threads which naturally tend to diversify somewhat as they run.

Personally,I would love to own and run an economical,inexpensive,practical 3 wheeler commuter such as proposed,I feel that educating Joe public will be a rather more difficult task though.




911hillclimber

486 posts

198 months

Tuesday 10th February 2009
quotequote all
I think anything Single Seater/2 wheels at the front and 1 (or two) at the back will look the 'same'.
The convensional doors makes the car wide to get in/out of, where the pivoting canopy is space efficient and novel, but may be too unconventional to some.

you will never please everyone all the time!

To my thinking the French car is too narrow. It looks unstable to me, and I would not consider it.
Maybe just the engineer in me.

ajprice

28,202 posts

199 months

Tuesday 10th February 2009
quotequote all
Coming at this from the scooter/moped angle, there are a few designs out there with a roof, or with 3 wheels.

I knew of the BMW C1 before - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_C1
which is basically a bike with a rollbar and windscreen.

There's the 3 wheeler Piaggio MP3 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piaggio_MP3
Narrower than Italo's design, but still more stable than a 2 wheeler for non bikers.

The Quasar http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quasar_(motorcycle)
Didn't know about this before, a 'feet forward' motorcycle designed in the 70's

Now in my head (a scary place at the best of times) I can see a combination of those.. a 3 wheeler, where you are in a feet forward position, with a windscreen and roof, maybe a stowage space behind your head. Maybe space out the front wheels to Italo's design to make room for side bodywork. As I've been typing this, I've been looking at that Quasar, thinking of the bike in Akira! I told you my head was a scary place smile .

fuoriserie

Original Poster:

4,560 posts

272 months

Tuesday 10th February 2009
quotequote all
911hillclimber said:
This is why I challenge anyone on here to show me today a drive train that will meet our friend's driving habit above. Think of those hills and battery resource. Hydrocarbons are a powerful convienient power source/medium. Easy to get, easy to control and hugely potent.
Joe Public understands it too (and diesel).

This idea of the Trike is great. It is not new, but it is close to being an acceptable device as public mood changes.
It is also a great commercial opportunity for the right group of people.

If only I was 30!

I hope someone will make this vehicle in 2009 while the mood is here, but is it really the right time?
Just do not ask a Bank Manager, but find an entreperure (sp)with b@lls.

I have sketched the chassis now and the body bubbles using a big scooter out back. Just the bloody reversing method and the all important canopy.
The only engine that meets your design brief would be CNG,or LPG and in Italy they've started doing CNG and LPG conversions of old scooter engines, just check this video, unfortunately in Italian for you, but basically it says that it holds 5liters. of CNG, it costs 3 Euros to fill it up, and runs for 100km, at the same speed as the original petrol engine

LPG conversion:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vO9FdgFRWaM&eur...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UesaKFh5Vt4&fea...

You should consider an alternative clean source of fuel, such as CNG, methanol, in addition to electric .

At the moment CNG could be the right choice, for such a trike..........

Edited by fuoriserie on Tuesday 10th February 21:14

fuoriserie

Original Poster:

4,560 posts

272 months

Tuesday 10th February 2009
quotequote all
LPG installation kit oin a motorcycle:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQApitlUZtg&fea...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upxNTlE0kOQ&fea...


supplier of LPG conversion kits for scooters in Italy

http://lovato-autogas.com.au/index.php?option=com_...

Edited by fuoriserie on Tuesday 10th February 21:23

fuoriserie

Original Poster:

4,560 posts

272 months

Tuesday 10th February 2009
quotequote all
Auntieroll said:
I tend to agree with 911Hillclimber about the energy sourcing,ie piston engine.

As it stands at the moment it looks as though Hydrogen,hydrocarbon or natural gas fuelled piston engines are the only truly practicable energy sourcesfor the near future,there are various reasons for this,which mainly revolve around cost.

Piston engine technology is pretty good despite what the Green lobby would have us believe,the big bugbear to be surmounted,I feel is the mass of todays vehicles as the MPG of even a new "MINI" could be drastically improved with a reduction in weight(it weighs about the same as a Merc 190 for heaven's sake!)as would ditching the catalytic converters.If hydrogen was used as the power source there would be virtually zero pollution from the exhaust.

All this is in an ideal world though,with the increasingly large cars that seem to be the norm nowadays (just compare the sizes of the old and new Mini,Fiesta,Polo or Fiat 500 )all this extra mass all takes energy to accelerate,as Newton proved years ago.

On the other hand ,just how many of us would fancy commuting in a vehicle which makes the occupant/s feel vulnerable ,(anyone who is a Motorcyclist or Seven driver knows where I'm coming from)such a vehicle would surely meet with huge market resistance.C5 anyone?

The Green aspect,needs very careful examination, especially with the various practical problems regarding battery management by the user,the service life of Lipo batteries being only a few hundred cycles at the moment, the very real attendant risk of fires resulting if accident damaged and the disposal of massive amounts of end of life cells,are just a few factors to be considered.

Fuel cells,I hear you say,well the majors are spending loads of money on R+D at the moment but cost is too high at the moment,anyway it is reckoned
that they will be supplied on a lease basis in order to recoup the development costs.These will undoubtedly become common place in the next few decades.

I don't mean to appear negative,far from it,I think Italo's designs are very practical and realistic,I only wish I had a really serious lottery win to enable his talent to be showcased,at least with a well styled and executed vehicle there is far more chance of changing the perceptions of the public but there needs to be a sea change in public attitudes for them to run with this type of vehicle,a lightweight four wheeler would probably be easier to sell to the average commuter due to the negative perceptions of trikes which has been reinforced by such as J.Carrot ,J. Clarkson et al,however unjust they may be.

The forthcoming economic D........n (Peter said not to mention the 'D'word because it might not happen if we all stick our heads in the sand /remain positive and the government/s can print notes quickly enough to engineer a soft(er) landing...fat chance!) and resultant carnage resulting from people having far less cash to run vehicles with,coupled with the desire to retain their independent transport, may provide such a change,this will mean many majors scaling down on production of the larger cars in favour of smaller,lighter more economical vehicles ,assuming the backlog of unsold cars can be shifted,there will almost inevitably be many,many more closures of car production plants worldwide,hopefully we shouldn't be hit too badly as imported cars will become increasingly expensive as the £ weakens thus hopefully making it more sensible to manufacture at home?

Sorry, strayed off topic and onto soapbox but Italo has a knack of starting long running threads which naturally tend to diversify somewhat as they run.

Personally,I would love to own and run an economical,inexpensive,practical 3 wheeler commuter such as proposed,I feel that educating Joe public will be a rather more difficult task though.
I'm sure you would be one of the first customers for the new trike....smile, smile

Cheers mate
Italo

Edited by fuoriserie on Tuesday 10th February 21:30

fuoriserie

Original Poster:

4,560 posts

272 months

Tuesday 10th February 2009
quotequote all

mrmaggit

10,146 posts

251 months

Wednesday 11th February 2009
quotequote all
I certainly don't have a downer on three wheelers (I have one already), and I think the sketch shown is quite "cute".

The problem from my view with the designs earlier is that the BMW (which I looked at some years ago), has all the drawbacks of a motorcycle (including having to wear a crash helmet!) and none of the advantages of a car. You still got wet in it if it rained, you got buffeted in a side-wind. The C5 was too slow, and too low and didn't look safe. The Quasar is a bigger version of the BMW.

I think something of a size similar to the old "bubble car", with better performance, central access, luggage storage in the front corners to keep the CG low, and a 1+1 seating arrangement, rather than side-by-side.

Just my 2p.

fuoriserie

Original Poster:

4,560 posts

272 months

Wednesday 11th February 2009
quotequote all
http://www.kldenergy.com/KLDOverview.html

http://www.kldenergy.com/motortechology_functional...

very interesting electric motor tecnology for a scooter based design......

Edited by fuoriserie on Wednesday 11th February 08:37

fuoriserie

Original Poster:

4,560 posts

272 months

Wednesday 11th February 2009
quotequote all

fuoriserie

Original Poster:

4,560 posts

272 months

Wednesday 11th February 2009
quotequote all
911hillclimber said:
We are petrol heads (I race cars as a hobby) and so we must be careful of enthusing too much, but that is why you need a sponsor to calm things down (not dampen note)and keep feet on the ground. Every inventor dreams his baby is a knock-out till market realities hit..
Couldn't you try and get some funding from the same source as this prototype ?

http://www.channel4.com/4car/news/news-story.jsp?n...