Two Stroke engines for 2025

Two Stroke engines for 2025

Author
Discussion

cholo

Original Poster:

990 posts

184 months

Tuesday
quotequote all
What's your thoughts on this?

I personally loved the old high revving v8/v10 engines and miss them, but have come to 'accept' the new turbo units, but they don't really excite me.

However, i am actually quite looking forward to this if it does happen. It would certainly make the power units sound unique again and also quite interesting.

Any idea what sort of engine size we would be looking at and how would they really sound?

E-bmw

5,310 posts

101 months

Tuesday
quotequote all
Can't see it unless there have been MAHOOSIVE improvements in their emissions in recent years, that is why the bikes are now 4-strokes.

Where did you hear that?

TheDeuce

3,938 posts

15 months

Tuesday
quotequote all
cholo said:
What's your thoughts on this?

I personally loved the old high revving v8/v10 engines and miss them, but have come to 'accept' the new turbo units, but they don't really excite me.

However, i am actually quite looking forward to this if it does happen. It would certainly make the power units sound unique again and also quite interesting.

Any idea what sort of engine size we would be looking at and how would they really sound?
I've looked around the net for any two stroke engine vaguely capable of such power, not found anything much tobe honest - it seems what exists are either the obvious bike/mower units o some massive industrial and ship 2 stroke diesels...

I did find this though, 400hp so getting on for half way there: https://youtu.be/JlVNHqLxBnk?t=140

Whilst I doubt very much the F1 units will sound exactly the same, there does remain a certain 2-stroke audio signature even in that highly tuned and high revving engine. I think that even with the turbo and potential super-charging, the F1 units will still have that 2 stroke sound and subsequently will sound very different to what we have today - which we can all be positive about!!

As for capacity, it's a bit different for 2 stroke of course, each cylinder has the potential to contribute twice as much (or twice as often) to power. It's not quite that simple, but it seems that Renault are close to a production 2 stroke diesel for their road cars, and expect a 15% increase in efficiency over their comparable 4 stroke diesel unit. So in that regard, an F1 engine could in theory be smaller than today for the same power output - however, it's not that simple of course. A little further reading seems to suggest that current 2 stroke research is generally focused on more cylinders as opposed to larger cylinders - so in the desire to reach F1 power levels, we might end up with an increase in cylinder numbers from what we have now, or twin pistons per cylinder with 2 or more cranks depending on the sectional layout of the engine. There are endless different approaches but whatever the final spec/design, its going to be a very unique engine type I'm sure.

robbieduncan

1,306 posts

185 months

Tuesday
quotequote all
E-bmw said:
Can't see it unless there have been MAHOOSIVE improvements in their emissions in recent years, that is why the bikes are now 4-strokes.

Where did you hear that?
https://www.pitpass.com/66467/F1-looking-at-two-stroke-engine-formula

https://www.motorsportweek.com/news/id/25796

(and others)

TheDeuce

3,938 posts

15 months

Tuesday
quotequote all
E-bmw said:
Can't see it unless there have been MAHOOSIVE improvements in their emissions in recent years, that is why the bikes are now 4-strokes.

Where did you hear that?
Pat Symonds breaks down his thinking: https://f1i.com/news/365695-symonds-greener-two-st...

And Renault appear to have found the massive improvement over 4 stroke: https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/renaul...


Fundoreen

1,079 posts

32 months

Tuesday
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Another one of those dumb stories that gain traction because nobody that knows anything about it has bothered speaking up.

TheDeuce

3,938 posts

15 months

Tuesday
quotequote all
Fundoreen said:
Another one of those dumb stories that gain traction because nobody that knows anything about it has bothered speaking up.
Surely Pat Symonds, the F1 technical director IS the person that would know something about it... It's his own words that started the story.

If it can be made more efficient than the current 4 stroke design, why not? Why would they not go that route?

sgtBerbatov

1,775 posts

30 months

Tuesday
quotequote all
https://www.youtube.com/embed/vtBX4NGLrXI

Can't see it taking off if I'm honest.

Edited by sgtBerbatov on Tuesday 14th January 14:49

TheDeuce

3,938 posts

15 months

Tuesday
quotequote all
I suppose Pat presented his idea initially as a sounding board to guage public and team opinion, he's started the conversation, that's all at this point.

If the idea gains any traction behind the scenes, I can't see the public getting very excited about it, at least not until a mock up can be shown and the type of sound that could be produced being demonstrated. People need to be shown that 2 stroke power can be joyful and potent (if indeed it can be..).


E-bmw

5,310 posts

101 months

Tuesday
quotequote all
TheDeuce said:
E-bmw said:
Can't see it unless there have been MAHOOSIVE improvements in their emissions in recent years, that is why the bikes are now 4-strokes.

Where did you hear that?
Pat Symonds breaks down his thinking: https://f1i.com/news/365695-symonds-greener-two-st...

And Renault appear to have found the massive improvement over 4 stroke: https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/renaul...
OK, so I was right then that it wouldn't be considered with the (now found) MAHOOSIVE improvements in emissions. wink

citizensm1th

5,485 posts

86 months

Tuesday
quotequote all
E-bmw said:
TheDeuce said:
E-bmw said:
Can't see it unless there have been MAHOOSIVE improvements in their emissions in recent years, that is why the bikes are now 4-strokes.

Where did you hear that?
Pat Symonds breaks down his thinking: https://f1i.com/news/365695-symonds-greener-two-st...

And Renault appear to have found the massive improvement over 4 stroke: https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/renaul...
OK, so I was right then that it wouldn't be considered with the (now found) MAHOOSIVE improvements in emissions. wink
Take a look at husky bikes direct injection two stroke dirt bikes that meet emissions laws

citizensm1th

5,485 posts

86 months

Tuesday
quotequote all
E-bmw said:
TheDeuce said:
E-bmw said:
Can't see it unless there have been MAHOOSIVE improvements in their emissions in recent years, that is why the bikes are now 4-strokes.

Where did you hear that?
Pat Symonds breaks down his thinking: https://f1i.com/news/365695-symonds-greener-two-st...

And Renault appear to have found the massive improvement over 4 stroke: https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/renaul...
OK, so I was right then that it wouldn't be considered with the (now found) MAHOOSIVE improvements in emissions. wink
Take a look at husky bikes direct injection two stroke dirt bikes that meet emissions laws

Exige77

4,175 posts

140 months

Tuesday
quotequote all
citizensm1th said:
E-bmw said:
TheDeuce said:
E-bmw said:
Can't see it unless there have been MAHOOSIVE improvements in their emissions in recent years, that is why the bikes are now 4-strokes.

Where did you hear that?
Pat Symonds breaks down his thinking: https://f1i.com/news/365695-symonds-greener-two-st...

And Renault appear to have found the massive improvement over 4 stroke: https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/renaul...
OK, so I was right then that it wouldn't be considered with the (now found) MAHOOSIVE improvements in emissions. wink
Take a look at husky bikes direct injection two stroke dirt bikes that meet emissions laws
It’s two “stroke” not two “post” smile

coppice

5,664 posts

93 months

Wednesday
quotequote all
Like virtually everyone involved in F1 Pat Symonds is far too close to the subject to take a sensible view.. As ever , why make it simple when you could make it absurdly over- complicated ? Nobody believes for a second that the oft quoted 'green lobby ' is more favourably disposed to today's obscenely expensive and complex engines than their predecessors and if F1 wanted to show its green credentials it wouldn't have tyres made out of soft cheese which are typically consumed at the rate of 12 tyres per 90 minute race .

The last 2 stroke car I heard was Formula Junior with DKW 3 cylinder power - it sounded like a castrato Ferrari . I suspect any modern counterpart would only be audible to dogs ,

Solution ? General consensus was that a mix of V10s and V12s makes most people smile - but rev limit them to avoid need for unobtanium con rods etc . F1 needs to be at the pinnacle, and in single seater terms I'd be happy for it to be the only one with full fat racing engines , with production engines and electric power. for the rest. But that paradigm shift would mean F1 and most of its fans acknowledging that it is at the pinnacle of a far bigger and diverse sport, rather than a made for TV soap opera .


As for sports cars, that is where the really smart hybrid (etc ) thinking needs to reside. It's got form - Le Mans had the Index of Thermal Efficiency 60 years ago

Daston

5,611 posts

152 months

Wednesday
quotequote all
If 2 stroke is on the cards would that include Rotary engines?

TheDeuce

3,938 posts

15 months

Wednesday
quotequote all
Daston said:
If 2 stroke is on the cards would that include Rotary engines?
I would say that would be a no stroke engine. No pistons, no stroke. I have heard people say they they are '4 stroke' due to having the same 4 stage cycle.. but the movement isn't a 'stroke'.

If they were considering rotary I think it'd be weird in every way to present it as two stroke.

I love rotary power as it happens - but I can't see the heavy oil usage flying with the sports green philosophy and I'm not sure even today that aspect can be improved sufficiently.


otolith

39,455 posts

153 months

Wednesday
quotequote all
I am not sure that the litre of oil my rotary engine used to consume every 1500 miles was as big a problem as the 340 litres of petrol it slurped over the same mileage.

TheDeuce

3,938 posts

15 months

Wednesday
quotequote all
otolith said:
I am not sure that the litre of oil my rotary engine used to consume every 1500 miles was as big a problem as the 340 litres of petrol it slurped over the same mileage.
That's fairly good oil usage! I'm imaging it would be somewhat more if it was spinning at 18000 rpm and producing 1000hp. Also the fuel usage, bit of an issue.

Does the beg the question though.. with F1 scale budgets for material costs, could the tips be improved with some magical material that would stand up to the beating, require a fraction of the lubricant and seal perfectly? I fear we might never know...

CedricN

488 posts

94 months

Thursday
quotequote all
otolith said:
I am not sure that the litre of oil my rotary engine used to consume every 1500 miles was as big a problem as the 340 litres of petrol it slurped over the same mileage.
If you have seen the fuel consumption/efficiency numbers for the 787b at full load its not bad at all actually, surprisingly good numbers (depending on what you expect of course smile). However, anything else than full load is not the best area to be for a rotary.

In general 2 stroke engine are brilliant in many ways, especially in small light applications like MX bike where i see 4 stroke as pointless today. However with these multi-cylinder turbocharged situations im not sure 2 stroke is the best solution, lots of things gets very complicated. However as an engineer im all in for changing the engine concepts once in a while to get some innovation and creative rule book interpretions, doesnt need to be better either, just different smile


It got me thinking about this brilliant race car:



thegreenhell

6,372 posts

168 months

Thursday
quotequote all
I don't think we'll see it until Ferrari have a 2 stroke road car on the drawing board. They won't want to spend hundreds of millions on something so different that has zero relevance to the rest of their business, and will likely enforce their veto if necessary.