Another Cars and Coffee crash - whats going wrong?
Discussion
As above, on this mornings Jalopnik, there's another video of a Viper exiting a venue, accelerating hard and then promptly stuffing it sideways into the kerb; I've seen similar "tank slapping" results on other videos as well.
My question is - what's the driver doing wrong, what should he have done to maintain control? and I mean from a technical point of view.
Thought I'd post in this section to the racing fraternity
Link: https://jalopnik.com/local-dodge-viper-leaving-car...
My question is - what's the driver doing wrong, what should he have done to maintain control? and I mean from a technical point of view.
Thought I'd post in this section to the racing fraternity
Link: https://jalopnik.com/local-dodge-viper-leaving-car...
Presumably he was trying to just do a quick launch / a big number eleven?
His first mistake was having some steering angle on when he set the wheels spinning which meant that instead of going straight when he lit the tyres up the car was going to go around. His second mistake was being too stupid to recognise this and/or too proud in front of the assembled crowd to immediately abort his stunt, get out of the throttle and into the brakes
His third mistake, having decided he wasn’t going to reduce the throttle at all, was being far too slow to apply opposite lock. With that amount of throttle and yaw rate he was going to hit the kerb anyway but by the by, he was far too slow to apply opposite lock.
Clearly the talent : power ratio was not where it needed to be which is often the case with these ‘showing off in front of groups of men’ scenarios.
His first mistake was having some steering angle on when he set the wheels spinning which meant that instead of going straight when he lit the tyres up the car was going to go around. His second mistake was being too stupid to recognise this and/or too proud in front of the assembled crowd to immediately abort his stunt, get out of the throttle and into the brakes
His third mistake, having decided he wasn’t going to reduce the throttle at all, was being far too slow to apply opposite lock. With that amount of throttle and yaw rate he was going to hit the kerb anyway but by the by, he was far too slow to apply opposite lock.
Clearly the talent : power ratio was not where it needed to be which is often the case with these ‘showing off in front of groups of men’ scenarios.
Carsie said:
My question is - what's the driver doing wrong, what should he have done to maintain control?
Stop showing off would be a good start. 
What they are doing requires commitment, you either need to keep on the throttle or let off early enough to avoid it in the first place.
It's usually when they put it into second, wheels still spinning and the extra dollop of torque along with some steering angle creates a larger slide than they expected. They let off, the car grips and spears off in the other direction into whatever kerb/wall/car/pedestrian happens to be there.
The driver is not actually driving the vehicle. The driver is basically a passenger, in fact the driver is often worse than a passenger, because they often do exactly the wrong thing at the wrong time. It's like they want to crash.
It's all a bit sad really. My advice to owners of performance cars who can't drive...
1. Make sure the stability control is on. It's tuned for people like you.
2. If you have no stability control...never, ever, use the performance.
3. Spend a little money learning how to drive, it's not hard.
Why would anyone buy an amazing set of golf clubs if I can't even hit the ball? Tragic.
It's all a bit sad really. My advice to owners of performance cars who can't drive...
1. Make sure the stability control is on. It's tuned for people like you.
2. If you have no stability control...never, ever, use the performance.
3. Spend a little money learning how to drive, it's not hard.
Why would anyone buy an amazing set of golf clubs if I can't even hit the ball? Tragic.
R8Steve said:
What they are doing requires commitment, you either need to keep on the throttle or let off early enough to avoid it in the first place.
It's usually when they put it into second, wheels still spinning and the extra dollop of torque along with some steering angle creates a larger slide than they expected. They let off, the car grips and spears off in the other direction into whatever kerb/wall/car/pedestrian happens to be there.
Thanks Hustle and R8, your answers are in line with what I thought but wanted an answer from the racing fraternity. i.e commit and hold it, but I think as you said R8 it's when the gear change comes and it grips throwing it in the opposite direction that mayhem ensues, then the disaster severity depends upon how fast they can recover it It's usually when they put it into second, wheels still spinning and the extra dollop of torque along with some steering angle creates a larger slide than they expected. They let off, the car grips and spears off in the other direction into whatever kerb/wall/car/pedestrian happens to be there.
There's another clip showing two Corvettes at the lights, car behind is following. Lights go green, they go for it and the ensuing snaking is risible - again I couldn't fathom how badly it went wrong.
So if I got this right...the correct way is...
1. Don't accelerate until everything's pointing in the right direction
2. If it goes- steer into it sharpish and hold it
3. Don't lift off, rather ease off
4. Don't change gear until everything's pointing in the right direction
5. All of the above in nano seconds
6. Visit M&S/Next/Boss WHY
I'm not going to go out and try the above
but I do like to push the XJR sometimes but then again it's got traction control; it was the technicalities of yaw, slip and traction that I was interested in.Thnx again guys.
Carsie said:
R8Steve said:
What they are doing requires commitment, you either need to keep on the throttle or let off early enough to avoid it in the first place.
It's usually when they put it into second, wheels still spinning and the extra dollop of torque along with some steering angle creates a larger slide than they expected. They let off, the car grips and spears off in the other direction into whatever kerb/wall/car/pedestrian happens to be there.
Thanks Hustle and R8, your answers are in line with what I thought but wanted an answer from the racing fraternity. i.e commit and hold it, but I think as you said R8 it's when the gear change comes and it grips throwing it in the opposite direction that mayhem ensues, then the disaster severity depends upon how fast they can recover it It's usually when they put it into second, wheels still spinning and the extra dollop of torque along with some steering angle creates a larger slide than they expected. They let off, the car grips and spears off in the other direction into whatever kerb/wall/car/pedestrian happens to be there.
There's another clip showing two Corvettes at the lights, car behind is following. Lights go green, they go for it and the ensuing snaking is risible - again I couldn't fathom how badly it went wrong.
So if I got this right...the correct way is...
1. Don't accelerate until everything's pointing in the right direction
2. If it goes- steer into it sharpish and hold it
3. Don't lift off, rather ease off
4. Don't change gear until everything's pointing in the right direction
5. All of the above in nano seconds
6. Visit M&S/Next/Boss WHY
I'm not going to go out and try the above
but I do like to push the XJR sometimes but then again it's got traction control; it was the technicalities of yaw, slip and traction that I was interested in.Thnx again guys.
After a second or two the car starts to build cornering force in the direction of yaw, so it is plain as day to the driver that the car needs to be corrected, they apply corrective lock and back off the throttle...at the same time.
The weight shifts forward, the front tyres get more lateral grip and the cars starts to yaw in the other direction, like a pendulum with stored energy.
The problem is the driver doesn't know when to unwind off this corrective steering, so the car swings past the straight ahead (no body slip angle) and starts to yaw in the other direction, with the steering wheel still pointing in that direction the yaw angle gets even bigger. Repeat until spin or crash.
t. I visit a number of cars and coffee events and dispite having a fast car and the crowds videoing i resist the temptation and pull away sensibly.Whatever car you get into you need to learn the way it responds.
Not just from low to high power but the reverse too.
I have a light rear wheel drive car with a Rover V8 at about 200bhp and higher V8 torque. I had a similar car but older and a Ford 1.6 efi engine. Big difference in Power/torque. The move up needed relearning how the car behaved and how my right foot affected it. In extreme it is a bit like learning how to drift using throttle control.
Trouble is too many don’t or cannot learn a good level of control and run out of talent. A few years ago one local driving instructor offered skid pan tuition. Trouble is how often do we drive on the limit to create the need for skid correction skills? I was once caught out by a diesel spill on a wet road and had a “oofuh” moment but no crash by catching the car quickly. Luckily I wasn’t being distracted in any way so caught it.
When my wife was working as a district nurse I used to drive her round if snow/ice was on the roads. I did like the challenge of low traction driving.
Not just from low to high power but the reverse too.
I have a light rear wheel drive car with a Rover V8 at about 200bhp and higher V8 torque. I had a similar car but older and a Ford 1.6 efi engine. Big difference in Power/torque. The move up needed relearning how the car behaved and how my right foot affected it. In extreme it is a bit like learning how to drift using throttle control.
Trouble is too many don’t or cannot learn a good level of control and run out of talent. A few years ago one local driving instructor offered skid pan tuition. Trouble is how often do we drive on the limit to create the need for skid correction skills? I was once caught out by a diesel spill on a wet road and had a “oofuh” moment but no crash by catching the car quickly. Luckily I wasn’t being distracted in any way so caught it.
When my wife was working as a district nurse I used to drive her round if snow/ice was on the roads. I did like the challenge of low traction driving.
Why is everyone cheering like that it's kind of sad unless I'm just emotional or something. People like this shouldn't own nice cars with great horsepower comes great responsibility especially if it's rear wheel drive. Don't squeeze the power on so hard when your cornering or at all if you can't handle it don't do it simple as that no matter how many people shouting at you to do it.
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