BTCC Snetterton....official thread n stuff.

[stevemcs]

So where was plato supposed to go, he cannot go left as Butcher is there, he cannot go right as Sutton is there, all he can do is stay where he is and drop drop in behind Plato, that's what Plato did behind Butcher - he may have stayed in the centre of the track but the Honda was squeezing him, either he backs right off and gives in or he does what he did in the hope that Sutton backs out of it, Sutton could have backed off and sat behind him and started the attack again but chose to put himself in that position.

[super7]

clubracing said:

super7 said:

Don't agree..... The guy on the outside has a choice, he can allow himself to be squeezed out onto the grass, or he decide to live another day and back off. Sutton should have backed off. He must have known he would get squeezed out, but by this time he's just pissed off and basically wanted the accident.

The guy on the inside,Butcher is in the best place, he's got 2 cars on the outside of hime to squeeze against, Plato made the corner. The only one who didn't was the one who thought everyone should give way to him.

I've gone into the corner 3 abreast in a Caterham race on the outside. I backed off, left the two on the inside to trip over themselves and got a podium out of it.

Watch the F1 at Hungary on the same day, Turn 3, the car on the outside can get around the car on the inside, sometimes, with a tyre advantage, but there's also plenty of scenarios whereby the guy on the outside is squeezed out and can again take to the rough and it's inherent risks, or can back off and have another go later.

Sutton wanted too stick one over Plato and was always going to have a good whinge if it didn't work and go crying to the stewards..... 3 lots of paperwork apparently for each whinge.

That's exactly my point then. You think that driving into the car on the outside and making contact to force them off the circuit is acceptable, despite the blue book saying 'crowding of a car beyond the edge of the track is strictly prohibited'.

Leaving a gap of exactly a cars width to the edge of the circuit and nothing more is allowed, but you can't just drive into them to force them off

I don't know the exact details of the F1 driving standards regs, but based on what we see on TV it does seem to be allowed sometimes in F1 at least, though I don't think it should be. Up to a point the leading car should be free to take their chosen line, but if the cars are fully alongside each other or have a significant overlap, then the car on the inside shouldn't be allowed to just drive into the other. That sort of thing should be restricted to short oval stock cars.

It's down to whether your taking a racing line, which allows you to use the full track or your 'Crowding' someone off? That's a matter of opinion that always seems to come up and it's ultimately the Stewards opinion. If you'r going round the outside, you'r taking a longer line than the driver on the inside or the middle. You can always expect the car on the inside to have better balance and be able to accelerate out on the line the guy on the outside is always going to be more on the edge. He must have been so unbalanced that the slightest touch was going to end in that spin. If you've managed to get FAR enough round you can cut the inside guy off forcing him on a tighter line, but having watched it a number times i'm of the opinion that Sutton was always going to come off worse and wasn't far enough round to stop Plato taking the line.

Whether there's bumping/rubbing/headbutting or whatever, I'd reckon all the drivers are guilty at some point, and again it's a fine line between disguising an intentional rub and being caught out by someone over braking ahead or slow on the throttle.

And as I said before, Sutton could always have backed off and saved it for another corner..... although they were running out...... hence the st or bust and i'll cry to the stewards if it's a bust!!!

Edited by super7 on Tuesday 6th August 13:25

[The Wookie]

From my experiences of being run off the track and the other driver either being penalised or getting away with it (or in one case me being penalised for not backing out as pushing me off broke the other driver's toe link and a shunt ensued!)...

If you're fully alongside on the outside then it really comes down to what mood the stewards are in, or perhaps the type of corner and whether it lends itself to that sort of move (e.g. Brooklands at Silverstone is a good one for two trailer park girls but Luffield isn't), if you've got a nose in front then no-one should be running you off.

Really though if you're being pragmatic then you need to be confident in the move (or trust your opponent), you have to accept that going round the outside is risky and that finishing a race one place down is generally more satisfying than watching the rest of it from behind the barriers with the other driver getting stuck on for it afterwards.

I've made moves stick round the outside of Jason once or twice before (one was through Noble at Thruxton!) and he's been perfectly fair, I might have been more circumspect if I had the history that Ash does with him!

[clubracing]

super7 said:

It's down to whether your taking a racing line, which allows you to use the full track or your 'Crowding' someone off? That's a matter of opinion that always seems to come up and it's ultimately the Stewards opinion. If you'r going round the outside, you'r taking a longer line than the driver on the inside or the middle. You can always expect the car on the inside to have better balance and be able to accelerate out on the line the guy on the outside is always going to be more on the edge. If you've managed to get FAR enough round you can cut the inside guy off forcing him on a tighter line, but having watched it a number times i'm of the opinion that Sutton was always going to come off worse and wasn't far enough round to stop Plato taking the line.

Whether there's bumping/rubbing/headbutting or whatever, I'd reckon all the drivers are guilty at some point, and again it's a fine line between disguising an intentional rub and being caught out by someone over braking ahead or slow on the throttle.

And as I said before, Sutton could always have backed off and saved it for another corner..... although they were running out...... hence the st or bust and i'll cry to the stewards if it's a bust!!!

That's not what the rules say though. Crowding is 'strictly prohibited', there's no qualifier to that statement. It's not allowed in any circumstances no matter whereabouts on the circuit or what line the drivers are on. The only leeway is if the overlap is small, so then it becomes a matter of interpretation about if the overlap is enough to be considered crowding.

On the exit neither Sutton or Plato were taking the 'normal' racing line but Sutton was actually ahead of Plato, that's how Plato was able to effectively perform a pit maneuver on him as he tried to force him onto the grass, and cause Sutton to spin.

Edit to add

https://twitter.com/ATheboy69/status/1158402261669...

Here's the incident from a more informative angle. No contact between the three cars when they're all alongside each other. The only contact is Plato going way off the ideal line to drive into Sutton on the exit.

Edited by clubracing on Tuesday 6th August 15:34

Edited by clubracing on Tuesday 6th August 15:36

[super7]

clubracing said:

That's not what the rules say though. Crowding is 'strictly prohibited', there's no qualifier to that statement. It's not allowed in any circumstances no matter whereabouts on the circuit or what line the drivers are on. The only leeway is if the overlap is small, so then it becomes a matter of interpretation about if the overlap is enough to be considered crowding.

On the exit neither Sutton or Plato were taking the 'normal' racing line but Sutton was actually ahead of Plato, that's how Plato was able to effectively perform a pit maneuver on him as he tried to force him onto the grass, and cause Sutton to spin.

Edit to add

https://twitter.com/ATheboy69/status/1158402261669...

Here's the incident from a more informative angle. No contact between the three cars when they're all alongside each other. The only contact is Plato going way off the ideal line to drive into Sutton on the exit.

Edited by clubracing on Tuesday 6th August 15:34

Edited by clubracing on Tuesday 6th August 15:36

Crowding is 'Strictly Prohibited'...... and Motor Racing is strictly a non-contact sport. go figure.....

There's always a fine line between taking your line and 'crowding' someone out. Crowding someone out down a straight is quite obvious, crowding someone out on the outside of corner is a different kettle of fish. What's crowding and what's taking a legitimate line and what's just plain hard racing....

There's always a fine line between blatant rubbing and making 'innocent' bad judgements. Sutton didn't get any penalties for his two indiscretions, Plato did.

[VictoriaYorks]

clubracing said:

Edit to add

https://twitter.com/ATheboy69/status/1158402261669...

Here's the incident from a more informative angle. No contact between the three cars when they're all alongside each other. The only contact is Plato going way off the ideal line to drive into Sutton on the exit.

Edited by clubracing on Tuesday 6th August 15:34

Edited by clubracing on Tuesday 6th August 15:36

That is outrageous

[emicen]

clubracing said:

super7 said:

It's down to whether your taking a racing line, which allows you to use the full track or your 'Crowding' someone off? That's a matter of opinion that always seems to come up and it's ultimately the Stewards opinion. If you'r going round the outside, you'r taking a longer line than the driver on the inside or the middle. You can always expect the car on the inside to have better balance and be able to accelerate out on the line the guy on the outside is always going to be more on the edge. If you've managed to get FAR enough round you can cut the inside guy off forcing him on a tighter line, but having watched it a number times i'm of the opinion that Sutton was always going to come off worse and wasn't far enough round to stop Plato taking the line.

Whether there's bumping/rubbing/headbutting or whatever, I'd reckon all the drivers are guilty at some point, and again it's a fine line between disguising an intentional rub and being caught out by someone over braking ahead or slow on the throttle.

And as I said before, Sutton could always have backed off and saved it for another corner..... although they were running out...... hence the st or bust and i'll cry to the stewards if it's a bust!!!

That's not what the rules say though. Crowding is 'strictly prohibited', there's no qualifier to that statement. It's not allowed in any circumstances no matter whereabouts on the circuit or what line the drivers are on. The only leeway is if the overlap is small, so then it becomes a matter of interpretation about if the overlap is enough to be considered crowding.

On the exit neither Sutton or Plato were taking the 'normal' racing line but Sutton was actually ahead of Plato, that's how Plato was able to effectively perform a pit maneuver on him as he tried to force him onto the grass, and cause Sutton to spin.

Edit to add

https://twitter.com/ATheboy69/status/1158402261669...

Here's the incident from a more informative angle. No contact between the three cars when they're all alongside each other. The only contact is Plato going way off the ideal line to drive into Sutton on the exit.

This “taking your line” thing, born of F1, really is just a disastrous concept.

Ideally, the Clerk of the Course should define what is considered an overlap in the drivers briefing, and that is what is played to *in corners.* Junior Saloons operate a policy of any overlap at all, you have to leave space. My championship(s) play 50:50, which is effectively in line with ye olde front wheels alongside or in front of the B pillar. If you don’t have that overlap as the protagonist, back out of it. I’m not saying we never have contact, but it has certainly massively reduced it and also any argument afterwards when footage is reviewed and penalties doled out.

Crowding off the track with any overlap at all on a straight is a straight out no. Forget 50:50, the smaller the overlap there, the greater the danger.

I can see why Plato and PowerMaxed are annoyed by the lack of consistency. His move on Smiley was punished, other very similar moves on the day were not. Sutton wasn’t exactly playing with his elbows in for the whole of Race 3.

[super7]

emicen said:

clubracing said:

super7 said:

It's down to whether your taking a racing line, which allows you to use the full track or your 'Crowding' someone off? That's a matter of opinion that always seems to come up and it's ultimately the Stewards opinion. If you'r going round the outside, you'r taking a longer line than the driver on the inside or the middle. You can always expect the car on the inside to have better balance and be able to accelerate out on the line the guy on the outside is always going to be more on the edge. If you've managed to get FAR enough round you can cut the inside guy off forcing him on a tighter line, but having watched it a number times i'm of the opinion that Sutton was always going to come off worse and wasn't far enough round to stop Plato taking the line.

Whether there's bumping/rubbing/headbutting or whatever, I'd reckon all the drivers are guilty at some point, and again it's a fine line between disguising an intentional rub and being caught out by someone over braking ahead or slow on the throttle.

And as I said before, Sutton could always have backed off and saved it for another corner..... although they were running out...... hence the st or bust and i'll cry to the stewards if it's a bust!!!

That's not what the rules say though. Crowding is 'strictly prohibited', there's no qualifier to that statement. It's not allowed in any circumstances no matter whereabouts on the circuit or what line the drivers are on. The only leeway is if the overlap is small, so then it becomes a matter of interpretation about if the overlap is enough to be considered crowding.

On the exit neither Sutton or Plato were taking the 'normal' racing line but Sutton was actually ahead of Plato, that's how Plato was able to effectively perform a pit maneuver on him as he tried to force him onto the grass, and cause Sutton to spin.

Edit to add

https://twitter.com/ATheboy69/status/1158402261669...

Here's the incident from a more informative angle. No contact between the three cars when they're all alongside each other. The only contact is Plato going way off the ideal line to drive into Sutton on the exit.

This “taking your line” thing, born of F1, really is just a disastrous concept.

Ideally, the Clerk of the Course should define what is considered an overlap in the drivers briefing, and that is what is played to *in corners.* Junior Saloons operate a policy of any overlap at all, you have to leave space. My championship(s) play 50:50, which is effectively in line with ye olde front wheels alongside or in front of the B pillar. If you don’t have that overlap as the protagonist, back out of it. I’m not saying we never have contact, but it has certainly massively reduced it and also any argument afterwards when footage is reviewed and penalties doled out.

Crowding off the track with any overlap at all on a straight is a straight out no. Forget 50:50, the smaller the overlap there, the greater the danger.

I can see why Plato and PowerMaxed are annoyed by the lack of consistency. His move on Smiley was punished, other very similar moves on the day were not. Sutton wasn’t exactly playing with his elbows in for the whole of Race 3.

But equally, when there's 3 cars going into the same corner alongside it's not quite the same, so if what clubracer says is correct, and is the letter of the law, then Plato should have given Sutton a car width, but he's also looking at what Butcher is doing..... he's trying to avoid Butcher, who in the end held quite a tight line through, but just his presence right on the inside has probably contribute to Plato going wider, although he didn't leave the track, and that car width disappearing leading to Sutton being on the grass. This is stupidity from Sutton, who should have realised 3 into 1 isn't going to work and still proceeds round the outside. There's regulations, then there's situations where you have to concede to the regulations to save your own skin.

Quite simply, Sutton should have backed off and followed the other two through, Plato was always going to be compromised on the next turn down to the bombhole and Corum where if Sutton had been a bit clever he could have run down to the last corner. In reality, he threw away a load of points by being stubborn. If there's a personal agenda with Plato, this cost him a whole loads of points.

[lewisr81]

I think, without seeing onboard, it looks like Platos part in the incident under the bridge was unintentional. It would definitely have been smart for Ash to have waited to gain back from the compromised run of either Butcher or Plato out of the right hander.

Thing is, you have to consider what had already happened up to that point in the race. Ash was shovelled off twice on the exit of Oggies and obviously in between that at agostini when he had the pass done. It became clear early on that JP wasn't prepared to be beaten by the Subaru whatever the cost, Ash did well in that the red mist only descended after the chequered flag.

[ols]

Of all the corners of all the circuits on the BTCC calendar, Brundle is NOT the place you want to electively pop in 3-wide, whilst being on the outside. I wouldn't attempt it from the safety of a sim, let alone an actual car in the middle of an actual race.

Hell, two cars through that corner side by side is usually stressful enough. You have a car decelerating from 150mph+, unbalanced at the apex and then setting up for the fast approaching right hander at Nelson, before taking into account what the guy on the right or left of you is doing.

Ash was clumsy to place his car there (and foolish to expect great things to come of it). JP had nowhere to go.

[markcoznottz]

Sutton lost because of straight line speed deficit, would have cleared off without that. Making it up under braking meant he left it to Plato to decide if they had an accident. Plato move on smiley was a blatant push to pass.

[stevemcs]

It’s hardly up to Plato to decide, he is a racing driver and any driver that think ok i’ll Let him go isn’t a raving driver who wants to win.

Smiley isn’t exactly squeaky clean either.

[The Wookie]

stevemcs said:

any driver that think ok i’ll Let him go isn’t a raving driver who wants to win.

Perhaps not but he is a racing driver who wants to finish, and in BTCC you need to pick your battles. I've learnt it the hard way!

[Rib]

Look at turks, yes he's got a great car underneath him but generally he's MEGA patient for the right opportunity, so just picks up regular points, doesn't get in any massive scraps that cause him to drop way down, and that's why he generally always in and around the top at the end of the season

[telecat]

On A slightly different front what was with the Jump start penalties in the Minor Races. Even replays failed to resolve that one and it cost Luke Browning a Win. As I understood it Jump Starts are usually called during the race and penalised then.

[DanielSan]

The Wookie said:

I've made moves stick round the outside of Jason once or twice before (one was through Noble at Thruxton!) and he's been perfectly fair, I might have been more circumspect if I had the history that Ash does with him!

Has the full situation with Plato/BMR come out yet? From what I've seen he seems to be owed cash, but no idea what the issue with him and Sutton is personally?

[The Wookie]

DanielSan said:

Has the full situation with Plato/BMR come out yet? From what I've seen he seems to be owed cash, but no idea what the issue with him and Sutton is personally?

No idea of the details to be honest but they never really looked like happy families being team mates!

[Mark Benson]

VictoriaYorks said:

clubracing said:

Edit to add

https://twitter.com/ATheboy69/status/1158402261669...

Here's the incident from a more informative angle. No contact between the three cars when they're all alongside each other. The only contact is Plato going way off the ideal line to drive into Sutton on the exit.

Edited by clubracing on Tuesday 6th August 15:34

Edited by clubracing on Tuesday 6th August 15:36

That is outrageous

There's absolutely no way Plato didn't know what he was doing there.
I've spent many, many hours racing at Snett and the only way you'd end up where Plato was would be if you'd seriously outbraked yourself or you were trying to force another driver off.
Plato didn't outbrake himself there - he was travelling slowly enough to have tightened his line through Brundle so he was on the left for the turn in to Nelson.
Forcing someone off on the inside going into a corner like that could have pretty nasty consequences should they run on into someone exiting the corner.

BTW - anyone know why the ITV player has pulled the BTCC coverage? I started it the other day but went back last night and it's gone.

[The Wookie]

Hard tyre trying to outbrake and carry the same speed through as the other two cars on the softs, lots of dirt and marbles there being the last race of the weekend... The cars also have a tendency to hop badly and destabilise if you carry the braking too far into the left hander, so you sometimes have to choose between running wide or risk it bouncing itself into something unrecoverable

It might have been but I don't think you can just assert that it was obviously on purpose, it's an easy mistake to make and frankly Jason knows how to punt someone off without compromising himself like he did there!

[Mark Benson]

OK, maybe a bit harsh, and I've never used anything but 1a tyres or decent slicks, matched to the car so I bow to your experience, however I'd be surprised if that was entirely innocent, to me it still looks like he opens up the steering specifically to crowd Sutton off. Hard to be sure from the video though....