overtaking under safety car rewarded?

overtaking under safety car rewarded?

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hartech

Original Poster:

1,896 posts

183 months

Sunday 6th June
quotequote all
3rd place snatched under safety car warning – opinions?

Snetterton Porsche Club event 5th June 2021 apparently – 3rd place taken under both safety car board and yellow flags when the car in 3rd slowed (after heeding the warnings) and the one in 4th passed – allowing the 4th placed car to keep the new 3rd place because the previously 4th placed driver “didn’t see the warnings”?

Just wondered what you all think about that when the officials admitted that despite the 3rd place car being clearly ahead at the safety car board, and yellow flag, despite the 4th place driver apparently admitting the result should have been swapped round, despite recent Championships being decided on one or two points – the 4th place driver was rewarded for “not seeing the warning signs”.

Not suggesting for one minute that the 4th place driver did see the warning signs – I don’t think that is as important as what I think could become a dangerous precedent set that could inevitably reward drivers who in future “do not pay enough attention” or “take chances” under safety conditions?

How things have changed. 10 years ago at the last deciding event of the season at Silverstone - a privateer barely leading the same Championship had his qualifying time discarded because he unknowingly overtook in a corner because he “didn’t see a yellow flag” (which his on board camera proved he could not in the position he was in). He was then forced to start at the back of the grid. Despite then coming far enough through the field to still stand a chance of winning the Championship – that was taken away because in his euphoria thinking he had still won it – he apparently removed his racing gloves (and possibly his helmet) while slowly driving back to the pits - in the pit lane. Not defending him – or arguing against it - just pointing out the different standards over a 10 year period.

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SRT Hellcat

6,550 posts

183 months

Sunday 6th June
quotequote all
Good old Porsche Club racing at its best. I learnt my lesson the hard way back in the 90's with them. Never again. Sorry no excuse. He should have been demoted back to fourth place.

PeterRB

2 posts

169 months

Monday 7th June
quotequote all
That does not sound a very safe or fair practice to me.

Is there something else that we don't know about this.

Irrespective of that, I would encourage the person who was relegated to fourth place to lodge a complaint as soon as possible. Firstly, with the Club Motorsport Chairman, Paul Seagrave, and if that is unsuccessful with the governing body.

PCGB motorsport is governed by Motorsport UK: https://www.motorsportuk.org/clubs-organisers/find...


Drumroll

2,687 posts

86 months

Monday 7th June
quotequote all
PeterRB said:
That does not sound a very safe or fair practice to me.

Is there something else that we don't know about this.

Irrespective of that, I would encourage the person who was relegated to fourth place to lodge a complaint as soon as possible. Firstly, with the Club Motorsport Chairman, Paul Seagrave, and if that is unsuccessful with the governing body.

PCGB motorsport is governed by Motorsport UK: https://www.motorsportuk.org/clubs-organisers/find...
To late to lodge a "complaint" with MSUk. Should have been done at the time. Going to see one of the organisers is different to raising a formal appeal to MSUK. Does the OP know what was actually done?



Kraken

1,673 posts

166 months

Monday 7th June
quotequote all
Did the driver appeal the result at the end of the race? If not then it's a moot point.

covboy

2,406 posts

140 months

Monday 7th June
quotequote all
It's surprising the number of Club drivers who aren't aware of the correct protest and appeals procedures

Drumroll

2,687 posts

86 months

Monday 7th June
quotequote all
covboy said:
It's surprising the number of Club drivers who aren't aware of the correct protest and appeals procedures
So true, not saying it is what happened in this instance. But l find it strange that So many competitors don't know the regulations.

Had a competitor turn up yesterday without a race suit.

mcdjl

4,685 posts

161 months

Monday 7th June
quotequote all
Drumroll said:
covboy said:
It's surprising the number of Club drivers who aren't aware of the correct protest and appeals procedures
So true, not saying it is what happened in this instance. But l find it strange that So many competitors don't know the regulations.

Had a competitor turn up yesterday without a race suit.
Its surprising the number of drivers who don't know the position they're about to start a race from....

covboy

2,406 posts

140 months

Monday 7th June
quotequote all
Drumroll said:
covboy said:
It's surprising the number of Club drivers who aren't aware of the correct protest and appeals procedures
So true, not saying it is what happened in this instance. But l find it strange that So many competitors don't know the regulations.

Had a competitor turn up yesterday without a race suit.
I heard recently of a competitior trying to put a (driving) protest in at the following championship round (two weeks later)

BertBert

15,108 posts

177 months

Monday 7th June
quotequote all
I think generally in UK club racing there isn't an appetite to strictly enforce some things. I think safety car infringements like this are common and are often overlooked in the interests of expediency and time. Doesn't make it right. Also eligibility scrutineering is often very poor (even pre-covid).

justleanitupabit

161 posts

73 months

Monday 7th June
quotequote all
mcdjl said:
Drumroll said:
covboy said:
It's surprising the number of Club drivers who aren't aware of the correct protest and appeals procedures
So true, not saying it is what happened in this instance. But l find it strange that So many competitors don't know the regulations.

Had a competitor turn up yesterday without a race suit.
Its surprising the number of drivers who don't know the position they're about to start a race from....
Heard recently of a driver wearing their HANS on TOP of their harness...

Drumroll

2,687 posts

86 months

Monday 7th June
quotequote all
BertBert said:
I think generally in UK club racing there isn't an appetite to strictly enforce some things. I think safety car infringements like this are common and are often overlooked in the interests of expediency and time. Doesn't make it right. Also eligibility scrutineering is often very poor (even pre-covid).
It has little to do with appetite, more to do with getting the evidence to do something about it. If I am on a post can't see everything that goes on in my sector. If I do see an overtake under yellows/safety car and I can get the numbers I will report it.

If you have actual evidence that cars are not compliant report it. If you don't are you then not part of the problem?

hartech

Original Poster:

1,896 posts

183 months

Monday 7th June
quotequote all
I can only report on what I have been told (awaiting the video) but Yes the driver did appeal (twice as I understand it) and spent an hour arguing about it with the officials who apparently agreed he was in the right but said sine they had already made their decision it could not be overturned. Apparently another consideration was that if they upheld the appeal it would put 3 points on the other drivers race licence?

In view of the fact that at the end of the race the 4th place driver was only 0.013 seconds behind the 3rd place driver - surely a time penalty would have been appropriate and fair?

After all that the driver narrowly missed winning the next race (finishing 2nd) and missed his prize giving as well while in with the race stewards.

My own personal view is that a dangerous precedent has been set that will endanger drivers in future who learn that if they "didn't see" warnings and snatch a place they can keep it because of the stewards handling of at best an unfair situation and at worst a dangerous one!

Baz

Drumroll

2,687 posts

86 months

Monday 7th June
quotequote all
hartech said:
I can only report on what I have been told (awaiting the video) but Yes the driver did appeal (twice as I understand it) and spent an hour arguing about it with the officials who apparently agreed he was in the right but said sine they had already made their decision it could not be overturned. Apparently another consideration was that if they upheld the appeal it would put 3 points on the other drivers race licence?

In view of the fact that at the end of the race the 4th place driver was only 0.013 seconds behind the 3rd place driver - surely a time penalty would have been appropriate and fair?

After all that the driver narrowly missed winning the next race (finishing 2nd) and missed his prize giving as well while in with the race stewards.

My own personal view is that a dangerous precedent has been set that will endanger drivers in future who learn that if they "didn't see" warnings and snatch a place they can keep it because of the stewards handling of at best an unfair situation and at worst a dangerous one!

Baz
This would suggest your information is wrong. https://www.msvracing.com/media/7163/clerks-decisi...

That is the only formal decision relating to yellow flag infringements that can find for the 5th of June.

Maybe next time wait until you have facts before wading in.



covboy

2,406 posts

140 months

Monday 7th June
quotequote all
hartech said:
I can only report on what I have been told (awaiting the video) but Yes the driver did appeal (twice as I understand it) and spent an hour arguing about it with the officials who apparently agreed he was in the right but said sine they had already made their decision it could not be overturned. Apparently another consideration was that if they upheld the appeal it would put 3 points on the other drivers race licence?

In view of the fact that at the end of the race the 4th place driver was only 0.013 seconds behind the 3rd place driver - surely a time penalty would have been appropriate and fair?

After all that the driver narrowly missed winning the next race (finishing 2nd) and missed his prize giving as well while in with the race stewards.

My own personal view is that a dangerous precedent has been set that will endanger drivers in future who learn that if they "didn't see" warnings and snatch a place they can keep it because of the stewards handling of at best an unfair situation and at worst a dangerous one!

Baz
It should have been a protest not an appeal Another consideration is that an Officials decision (I assume in this case a Clerk of the course) can be appealed but means stumping up some money and taking it to event stewards and if still unhappy then to MSUK

hartech

Original Poster:

1,896 posts

183 months

Tuesday 8th June
quotequote all
Perhaps my logic is different to your DRUMROLL - the report you posted the link to confirms the exact facts as I reported them and I asked what others thought about it. unless I am missing something - not sure what part of my post is "wading in before I am sure of the facts". it seems you are agreeing that as long as a competitor "didn't see the warning signs" there is no penalty applicable and if that is correct I am not sure why I cannot ask the opinion of others about that position - this is how things become improved and safety becomes more of a priority - which cannot be a bad thing.

If I am missing some other point or issue - please state it directly so I can understand it rather than become abusive.

Baz

covboy

2,406 posts

140 months

Tuesday 8th June
quotequote all
hartech said:
Perhaps my logic is different to your DRUMROLL - the report you posted the link to confirms the exact facts as I reported them and I asked what others thought about it. unless I am missing something - not sure what part of my post is "wading in before I am sure of the facts". it seems you are agreeing that as long as a competitor "didn't see the warning signs" there is no penalty applicable and if that is correct I am not sure why I cannot ask the opinion of others about that position - this is how things become improved and safety becomes more of a priority - which cannot be a bad thing.

If I am missing some other point or issue - please state it directly so I can understand it rather than become abusive.

Baz
The decision sheet posted adds extra facts not included in the original post that the flags and board were obscured by the car in front (video evidence). Out of interest was this reported from marshals circuit side or as a result of a protest ?

Drumroll

2,687 posts

86 months

Tuesday 8th June
quotequote all
hartech said:
Perhaps my logic is different to your DRUMROLL - the report you posted the link to confirms the exact facts as I reported them and I asked what others thought about it. unless I am missing something - not sure what part of my post is "wading in before I am sure of the facts". it seems you are agreeing that as long as a competitor "didn't see the warning signs" there is no penalty applicable and if that is correct I am not sure why I cannot ask the opinion of others about that position - this is how things become improved and safety becomes more of a priority - which cannot be a bad thing.

If I am missing some other point or issue - please state it directly so I can understand it rather than become abusive.

Baz
Your original post said nothing was done, that clearly is not the case. You may not agree with it but don't start posting that it sets some sort of precedent. You also don't know if there was any other evidence presented. So yes I do call you out. Your original post shows your lack of understanding of the judicial process at a MSUK event.

Neither do you understand flag signals. The yellow flag is always shown with the safety car board. ( they are considered as one signal. Only double yellows at the incident is considered an additional signal)

Edited by Drumroll on Tuesday 8th June 10:07

MadCaptainJack

200 posts

6 months

Tuesday 8th June
quotequote all
Drumroll said:
Your original post said nothing was done...
Did it? readit

Drumroll

2,687 posts

86 months

Tuesday 8th June
quotequote all
MadCaptainJack said:
Drumroll said:
Your original post said nothing was done...
Did it? readit
In the context of the OP it does infer nothing was done. Subsequent posts did nothing to change my assertion of that.