Your favourite 'cheats' in motorsport
Discussion
ha yep I remember them having a million engines! Its funny, we might've crossed paths at one point as I was racing cadets at chasewater for a bit, think it was a couple years after button et al had moved on though.
but yeah back in those days cadet class was ultra competitive, everyone thought their kid would be the next Schumacher and would do anything to be at the pointy end. I remember there sometimes even being a 'C' final on some tracks (shennington for definite) back in those days there were so many people there. good times.
but yeah back in those days cadet class was ultra competitive, everyone thought their kid would be the next Schumacher and would do anything to be at the pointy end. I remember there sometimes even being a 'C' final on some tracks (shennington for definite) back in those days there were so many people there. good times.
Yazza54 said:
Kevin_Birth said:
lol, that has to be hamilton surely. back when I was karting it was the Christodoulous who were always being found out doing one thing or another.
Shame my dad never ran me with rocket fuel
They were all up to no good.Shame my dad never ran me with rocket fuel
I remember practicing at chase water and the Christos had a van full of 10 engines all breathed on by rocket, and they had hired a number of quick lads including their boys to test all the engines and keep the cream of the crop. This is at 8 years old, the van probably had 15k worth of 60cc engines in the back of it. Not a story of cheating but unfair nontheless.
...
Yazza54 said:
Unfortunately Motorsport is riddled with bent b
ds, and it's often the people with bags of money too. Some people will really go to any extent to win.
It's one of those things you've just got to be aware of but not let it ruin racing for you, or you just wind up believing literally everyone around you is cheating.
Yeah usually it's actually pretty blatant and you wonder how they get away with it until you realise it's because actually most people don't cheat and there's actually a lot of trust knocking around.ds, and it's often the people with bags of money too. Some people will really go to any extent to win. It's one of those things you've just got to be aware of but not let it ruin racing for you, or you just wind up believing literally everyone around you is cheating.
I raced against a Ginetta team run by a guy who had been chucked out of two different championships for running bent engines. His mechanics were boasting down the bar at night that they were forging the tyre books and using softener. One of their cars also had a VERY strong engine.
The sad thing is that type of person probably thinks that everyone else is doing the same.
That said certain championships it's absolutely rampant, usually the ones where one pro team comes in and does the job properly/expensively without actually breaking the rules (arguably just as bad as cheating in some ways), wipes the floor with everyone and then everyone else goes out trying to match it on the cheap
Yazza54 said:
They were all up to no good.
I remember practicing at chase water and the Christos had a van full of 10 engines all breathed on by rocket, and they had hired a number of quick lads including their boys to test all the engines and keep the cream of the crop. This is at 8 years old, the van probably had 15k worth of 60cc engines in the back of it. Not a story of cheating but unfair nontheless.
Me and my old man remember hearing one of the dad's moaning at jenson buttons old fella (rocket engines) "you've not done the fking skirts on this one"... Shouldn't be doing anything to the skirts. Also recall seeing a very blingy gold con rod in a comer motor when they took the barrel off after a seize, must have been gold nitrided. There was also various stories of people using tyre softener, av gas etc etc ... Unfortunately Motorsport is riddled with bent bds, and it's often the people with bags of money too. Some people will really go to any extent to win.
The formula I race in now (750MC Sports 1000) is very good but you still hear people come out with stuff like "got a really strong engine from XYZ" .. I'm like riiiight, how strong, given all the engines should be completely standard, they ought to all be much of a muchness.
It's one of those things you've just got to be aware of but not let it ruin racing for you, or you just wind up believing literally everyone around you is cheating.
It's amazing sometimes how many people will try and claim cheating on teams/cars that are completely legal but are just damn fast. I remember practicing at chase water and the Christos had a van full of 10 engines all breathed on by rocket, and they had hired a number of quick lads including their boys to test all the engines and keep the cream of the crop. This is at 8 years old, the van probably had 15k worth of 60cc engines in the back of it. Not a story of cheating but unfair nontheless.
Me and my old man remember hearing one of the dad's moaning at jenson buttons old fella (rocket engines) "you've not done the fking skirts on this one"... Shouldn't be doing anything to the skirts. Also recall seeing a very blingy gold con rod in a comer motor when they took the barrel off after a seize, must have been gold nitrided. There was also various stories of people using tyre softener, av gas etc etc ... Unfortunately Motorsport is riddled with bent b
ds, and it's often the people with bags of money too. Some people will really go to any extent to win. The formula I race in now (750MC Sports 1000) is very good but you still hear people come out with stuff like "got a really strong engine from XYZ" .. I'm like riiiight, how strong, given all the engines should be completely standard, they ought to all be much of a muchness.
It's one of those things you've just got to be aware of but not let it ruin racing for you, or you just wind up believing literally everyone around you is cheating.
Edited by Yazza54 on Thursday 13th August 23:05
A friend works for JRT doing historic racing and the amount of times they have people accusing them of running bent engines and illegal parts in the Cortina's and A40 is a joke
DanielSan said:
Yazza54 said:
They were all up to no good.
I remember practicing at chase water and the Christos had a van full of 10 engines all breathed on by rocket, and they had hired a number of quick lads including their boys to test all the engines and keep the cream of the crop. This is at 8 years old, the van probably had 15k worth of 60cc engines in the back of it. Not a story of cheating but unfair nontheless.
Me and my old man remember hearing one of the dad's moaning at jenson buttons old fella (rocket engines) "you've not done the fking skirts on this one"... Shouldn't be doing anything to the skirts. Also recall seeing a very blingy gold con rod in a comer motor when they took the barrel off after a seize, must have been gold nitrided. There was also various stories of people using tyre softener, av gas etc etc ... Unfortunately Motorsport is riddled with bent bds, and it's often the people with bags of money too. Some people will really go to any extent to win.
The formula I race in now (750MC Sports 1000) is very good but you still hear people come out with stuff like "got a really strong engine from XYZ" .. I'm like riiiight, how strong, given all the engines should be completely standard, they ought to all be much of a muchness.
It's one of those things you've just got to be aware of but not let it ruin racing for you, or you just wind up believing literally everyone around you is cheating.
It's amazing sometimes how many people will try and claim cheating on teams/cars that are completely legal but are just damn fast. I remember practicing at chase water and the Christos had a van full of 10 engines all breathed on by rocket, and they had hired a number of quick lads including their boys to test all the engines and keep the cream of the crop. This is at 8 years old, the van probably had 15k worth of 60cc engines in the back of it. Not a story of cheating but unfair nontheless.
Me and my old man remember hearing one of the dad's moaning at jenson buttons old fella (rocket engines) "you've not done the fking skirts on this one"... Shouldn't be doing anything to the skirts. Also recall seeing a very blingy gold con rod in a comer motor when they took the barrel off after a seize, must have been gold nitrided. There was also various stories of people using tyre softener, av gas etc etc ... Unfortunately Motorsport is riddled with bent b
ds, and it's often the people with bags of money too. Some people will really go to any extent to win. The formula I race in now (750MC Sports 1000) is very good but you still hear people come out with stuff like "got a really strong engine from XYZ" .. I'm like riiiight, how strong, given all the engines should be completely standard, they ought to all be much of a muchness.
It's one of those things you've just got to be aware of but not let it ruin racing for you, or you just wind up believing literally everyone around you is cheating.
Edited by Yazza54 on Thursday 13th August 23:05
A friend works for JRT doing historic racing and the amount of times they have people accusing them of running bent engines and illegal parts in the Cortina's and A40 is a joke
The reality is I just got another good second hand crank, some new shells l rebuilt it myself and chucked it back in the car.
It's quite insulting really, it can't be the driving, it can't be that I've spent countless hours on setup over winter, oh no I must be cheating... But hey, if people are hovering around asking questions it means you're doing something right.
DanielSan said:
It's amazing sometimes how many people will try and claim cheating on teams/cars that are completely legal but are just damn fast.
A friend works for JRT doing historic racing and the amount of times they have people accusing them of running bent engines and illegal parts in the Cortina's and A40 is a joke
Mike and Andy though I’d never put down for running anything other than a straight car.A friend works for JRT doing historic racing and the amount of times they have people accusing them of running bent engines and illegal parts in the Cortina's and A40 is a joke
To be fair though you do seem to get a lot more cheats in historics for some reason! I know someone who got turfed out for a carbon fibre prop shaft, truth is it was probably only the most obvious dodgy part on the car, knowing him I can’t even begin to imagine what else was under the skin!!
Club racing is a funny old world. An odd mix of people who aren’t loaded but live for racing, putting their heart and soul into getting a car on the grid, and then hobbyists for whom it’s just another way to spend some of their (often copious amounts of) money. Generally people who are better off will have a team running a car that is prepped to the n’th degree, so although it’s probably justified to have a bit of faith in a big team outfit to run straight, banging a new engine in every couple weekends, new tyres every other session, massive amounts of testing time, they’re not really in the same race as the man in a van whose car has been cobbled together in a shed.
My personal opinion is that those who can afford to run GT4 / TCR - esque cars (really I’m referring to any properly and fully developed bit of kit, I’ve just seen plenty of the above) should fk off to bigger and better things more apropos to their budget, and leave poverty level club racing to us peasants who can just about barely afford to put a car out. I get a big fish/small pond vibe, which stinks a bit. It’s not cheating, it just might as well be.
Proper cheating is more likely to occur in series with less money floating about, where you need an engine to last two seasons for money’s sake, people find all sorts of loopholes to put an advantage in the car. But if nobody has stupid amounts of money, who’s going to pay for the car to be torn down to find out..? The result is that over time the series regs become, well...
My personal opinion is that those who can afford to run GT4 / TCR - esque cars (really I’m referring to any properly and fully developed bit of kit, I’ve just seen plenty of the above) should f
k off to bigger and better things more apropos to their budget, and leave poverty level club racing to us peasants who can just about barely afford to put a car out. I get a big fish/small pond vibe, which stinks a bit. It’s not cheating, it just might as well be.Proper cheating is more likely to occur in series with less money floating about, where you need an engine to last two seasons for money’s sake, people find all sorts of loopholes to put an advantage in the car. But if nobody has stupid amounts of money, who’s going to pay for the car to be torn down to find out..? The result is that over time the series regs become, well...
Threads like this scare me a little bit. I have set my heart on racing classics. Something like a Lotus 18 or 20 in Formula Junior.
I will have a healthy budget but I’m not going to be willing to go to the lengths that have been described on here. Kind of on a moral level plus my wife would leave me if I spent massive amounts of time on it.
Going back the original spirit of the thread. I have heard stories of a chap building a prewar Bentley with an aluminium chassis that was filled with foam or something. Crashed it bits of the foam went all over the track letting the cat out of the bag somewhat :Laugh:
Was not surprised when I asked the chap who looks after my Dads Bentley What would be needed to go racing with it. Conversation went:
Engineer: Well biggest job is making it a 5.3 litre.
Me: Don’t you mean 4.5?
Engineer: Depends do you want to be middle of the pack or near the front?
It amazes me the different ways different people race. I have a mate racing Boxsters who gave me advice on how much I would need to go racing myself. Scared me a bit as he has 3 race engineers at every meet including the numerous test days he does etc. The amount he spends is just massive. But in his defence he wins a lot and from what I understand he is considered Very good behind the wheel.
Other end of the scale Robin Shute won pines peek with a car he essentially built with his very very smart mates. He is actually working on something really interesting at the moment.
I will have a healthy budget but I’m not going to be willing to go to the lengths that have been described on here. Kind of on a moral level plus my wife would leave me if I spent massive amounts of time on it.
Going back the original spirit of the thread. I have heard stories of a chap building a prewar Bentley with an aluminium chassis that was filled with foam or something. Crashed it bits of the foam went all over the track letting the cat out of the bag somewhat :Laugh:
Was not surprised when I asked the chap who looks after my Dads Bentley What would be needed to go racing with it. Conversation went:
Engineer: Well biggest job is making it a 5.3 litre.
Me: Don’t you mean 4.5?
Engineer: Depends do you want to be middle of the pack or near the front?
It amazes me the different ways different people race. I have a mate racing Boxsters who gave me advice on how much I would need to go racing myself. Scared me a bit as he has 3 race engineers at every meet including the numerous test days he does etc. The amount he spends is just massive. But in his defence he wins a lot and from what I understand he is considered Very good behind the wheel.
Other end of the scale Robin Shute won pines peek with a car he essentially built with his very very smart mates. He is actually working on something really interesting at the moment.
Back in road rallying days there was one navigator known for having a stationer's warehouse of biros and various pens in a bag. An inconvenient and badly scrawled time by a marshal could be altered with the right pen. Results teams were usually under such time pressure that marshalling check sheets were rarely consulted, often not even available to be consulted on events where results were being published as soon as possible after last car otl time.
The Wookie said:
Mike and Andy though I’d never put down for running anything other than a straight car.
To be fair though you do seem to get a lot more cheats in historics for some reason! I know someone who got turfed out for a carbon fibre prop shaft, truth is it was probably only the most obvious dodgy part on the car, knowing him I can’t even begin to imagine what else was under the skin!!
I think with historics you have a combination of rich (often exceptionally!) participants and cars which have huge scope for improvement with modern materials and knowledge. I think parts being reproduced in contemporary materials but made to look old is very common. To be fair though you do seem to get a lot more cheats in historics for some reason! I know someone who got turfed out for a carbon fibre prop shaft, truth is it was probably only the most obvious dodgy part on the car, knowing him I can’t even begin to imagine what else was under the skin!!
The Wookie said:
DanielSan said:
It's amazing sometimes how many people will try and claim cheating on teams/cars that are completely legal but are just damn fast.
A friend works for JRT doing historic racing and the amount of times they have people accusing them of running bent engines and illegal parts in the Cortina's and A40 is a joke
Mike and Andy though I’d never put down for running anything other than a straight car.A friend works for JRT doing historic racing and the amount of times they have people accusing them of running bent engines and illegal parts in the Cortina's and A40 is a joke
To be fair though you do seem to get a lot more cheats in historics for some reason! I know someone who got turfed out for a carbon fibre prop shaft, truth is it was probably only the most obvious dodgy part on the car, knowing him I can’t even begin to imagine what else was under the skin!!
A lot of the complaints always come from teams/owners who take the car to a race meeting, run it and then park it up for 2 weeks doing the bare minimum of repairs and usually little to no testing.... then they wonder why their car isn't winning
There does seem to be a lot of grey areas when it comes to what's acceptable at different meetings and events, I think some historic racers just do what think they'll get away with and hope for the best.
The Wookie said:
That said certain championships it's absolutely rampant, usually the ones where one pro team comes in and does the job properly/expensively without actually breaking the rules (arguably just as bad as cheating in some ways), wipes the floor with everyone and then everyone else goes out trying to match it on the cheap
ntiz said:
Threads like this scare me a little bit. I have set my heart on racing classics. Something like a Lotus 18 or 20 in Formula Junior.
I will have a healthy budget but I’m not going to be willing to go to the lengths that have been described on here. Kind of on a moral level plus my wife would leave me if I spent massive amounts of time on it.
Going back the original spirit of the thread. I have heard stories of a chap building a prewar Bentley with an aluminium chassis that was filled with foam or something. Crashed it bits of the foam went all over the track letting the cat out of the bag somewhat :Laugh:
Was not surprised when I asked the chap who looks after my Dads Bentley What would be needed to go racing with it. Conversation went:
Engineer: Well biggest job is making it a 5.3 litre.
Me: Don’t you mean 4.5?
Engineer: Depends do you want to be middle of the pack or near the front?
It amazes me the different ways different people race. I have a mate racing Boxsters who gave me advice on how much I would need to go racing myself. Scared me a bit as he has 3 race engineers at every meet including the numerous test days he does etc. The amount he spends is just massive. But in his defence he wins a lot and from what I understand he is considered Very good behind the wheel.
Other end of the scale Robin Shute won pines peek with a car he essentially built with his very very smart mates. He is actually working on something really interesting at the moment.
I really wouldn’t worry about cheating in FJ - whilst I haven’t competed in it I have several friends who have done for years and they tell me it’s policed carefully I will have a healthy budget but I’m not going to be willing to go to the lengths that have been described on here. Kind of on a moral level plus my wife would leave me if I spent massive amounts of time on it.
Going back the original spirit of the thread. I have heard stories of a chap building a prewar Bentley with an aluminium chassis that was filled with foam or something. Crashed it bits of the foam went all over the track letting the cat out of the bag somewhat :Laugh:
Was not surprised when I asked the chap who looks after my Dads Bentley What would be needed to go racing with it. Conversation went:
Engineer: Well biggest job is making it a 5.3 litre.
Me: Don’t you mean 4.5?
Engineer: Depends do you want to be middle of the pack or near the front?
It amazes me the different ways different people race. I have a mate racing Boxsters who gave me advice on how much I would need to go racing myself. Scared me a bit as he has 3 race engineers at every meet including the numerous test days he does etc. The amount he spends is just massive. But in his defence he wins a lot and from what I understand he is considered Very good behind the wheel.
Other end of the scale Robin Shute won pines peek with a car he essentially built with his very very smart mates. He is actually working on something really interesting at the moment.
CanoeSniffer said:
My personal opinion is that those who can afford to run GT4 / TCR - esque cars (really I’m referring to any properly and fully developed bit of kit, I’ve just seen plenty of the above) should fk off to bigger and better things more apropos to their budget, and leave poverty level club racing to us peasants who can just about barely afford to put a car out. I get a big fish/small pond vibe, which stinks a bit. It’s not cheating, it just might as well be.
I’ve dipped in an out of club racing over the last 15 years or so. The motor homes and trucks I’ve seen appear over that time I will admit sometimes makes me reflect on exactly what you said. There does seem to be 2 very different breeds of club racers in existence. k off to bigger and better things more apropos to their budget, and leave poverty level club racing to us peasants who can just about barely afford to put a car out. I get a big fish/small pond vibe, which stinks a bit. It’s not cheating, it just might as well be.However I believe it’s the same in any sport / hobby. My OH is involved with horses. You’ll get the folks with an old trailer and 4x4 turn up to shows then the folks in the £100k horsebox. Doesn’t bring success though.
Robmarriott said:
The other thing you tend to find is that all the ones who accuse others of cheating tend to be the ones who are, themselves, cheating. "there's no way their engine is standard and they're that quick" say the guys with the dodgy motor
The best one I ever heard in this vain was when I was spectating the last run of a car at a club rally and the guy the car was competing against for the championship was stood next to me - we were talking about how fast the car seemed to be and he just said "There is no way his car is legal - mine certainly isn't and his pulls away from me!"flemke said:
During a race a few years ago, I was standing alongside a team manager. There were a number of other cars in the same class as his car's.
As his car came down the long pit straight, a rival car in the same class came from behind it and then overtook it.
He calmly commented to me, "That car (the rival) is not legal."
Surprised that he could be so confident of such a thing, I replied, "How do you know?"
"Because", he answered, "It is faster than my car, and my car is not legal either."
Brilliant As his car came down the long pit straight, a rival car in the same class came from behind it and then overtook it.
He calmly commented to me, "That car (the rival) is not legal."
Surprised that he could be so confident of such a thing, I replied, "How do you know?"
"Because", he answered, "It is faster than my car, and my car is not legal either."
FiF said:
Back in road rallying days there was one navigator known for having a stationer's warehouse of biros and various pens in a bag. An inconvenient and badly scrawled time by a marshal could be altered with the right pen. Results teams were usually under such time pressure that marshalling check sheets were rarely consulted, often not even available to be consulted on events where results were being published as soon as possible after last car otl time.
Road rallying is rife with 'rallymanship'.We won an event last year after the car that was leading the event missed a Passage Check near the end.
After the last time control they stopped and waited for us to arrive when the navigator leant in the window and asked if PCXX missing.
Sensible me of course covered my time card and said no, unlucky and we drove off.
When the provisional results were published I noticed they hadn't received a penalty for missing it (so assumed somebody hadn't been so coy and had accidentally given the game away).
I queried with the clerk of the course and the check sheets confirmed they had indeed missed it giving them a penalty and promoting us to first.
There is the case of the Whittington Brothers "buying" a refuelling stamp from one of the refuelers at the '79 Le Mans, adjusted the fuelling rig by about 1 or 2 %, stamping it, then giving him his stamp back. It's funny but they seemed to be filling up faster than everyone else.
If you look on the vinwki youtube channel, some american historian goes into their shenanigans in some detail.
Motorbikes wise, i can remember in the early 80's in South African Proddie racing you had to be very creative because the tech inspectors were on the ball.
Reports of the Suzuki Katana 1000 engine in the 750 frame, dimensionally the same but weighed less.
Forks dropped through the stanchions by about 2 mm or so giving a slightly nose down stance to aid with take off from the line and avoid wheelies
Also, wasn't their allegations against Roger Penske and the late Mark Donohue over a couple of trans am cars they ran?
If you look on the vinwki youtube channel, some american historian goes into their shenanigans in some detail.
Motorbikes wise, i can remember in the early 80's in South African Proddie racing you had to be very creative because the tech inspectors were on the ball.
Reports of the Suzuki Katana 1000 engine in the 750 frame, dimensionally the same but weighed less.
Forks dropped through the stanchions by about 2 mm or so giving a slightly nose down stance to aid with take off from the line and avoid wheelies
Also, wasn't their allegations against Roger Penske and the late Mark Donohue over a couple of trans am cars they ran?
Edited by slopes on Wednesday 6th January 16:59
Edited by slopes on Wednesday 6th January 18:37
Bike racing is rife for cheats even at the top level. McElnea was done a couple of times I think for running oversize engines. Duffus got done at a TT for something I recall.
But it's not always the case. I recall after his first GP year in 1993 John Reynolds came back to the UK and won a superbike race at Brands on a year old ZXR750 he won on the previous year, it was disqualified as Ben Atkins said he did not want to go through the hassle and expense of stripping it to rebuild again! Whether that meant it was bent or he was being genuine who knows!
And after his exploits in rallying for years and his numerous run ins with the law, I would not be shocked if a certain dominant BSB team owner was not pushing things a little!
But the best sport for cheating is really NASCAR or drag racing. Waltrip tells some great stories of them running lead shot in the roll cage and him having to let it our on warm up laps, nitrous in the engine, etc etc
But the best ones were always something like running something really obvious at one end, to cover something really devious and clever that could be spotted elsewhere!
But it's not always the case. I recall after his first GP year in 1993 John Reynolds came back to the UK and won a superbike race at Brands on a year old ZXR750 he won on the previous year, it was disqualified as Ben Atkins said he did not want to go through the hassle and expense of stripping it to rebuild again! Whether that meant it was bent or he was being genuine who knows!
And after his exploits in rallying for years and his numerous run ins with the law, I would not be shocked if a certain dominant BSB team owner was not pushing things a little!
But the best sport for cheating is really NASCAR or drag racing. Waltrip tells some great stories of them running lead shot in the roll cage and him having to let it our on warm up laps, nitrous in the engine, etc etc
But the best ones were always something like running something really obvious at one end, to cover something really devious and clever that could be spotted elsewhere!
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