Anyone have info on the Peugeot 405 T16 GR?

[Ravell]

I've always love the Group B rally cars, in perticular the Peugeot 205 T16. But the rarer Peugeot 405 T16 produces shortly after group B was banned for desert rallying and the Pikes Peak hilclimb has recently cought my attention a bit more. Information on it is rather sporadic it seems, even the number built seems to be unclear. Quite a few pictures here, but little else.

Does anyone know more about it, and maybe have some more technical information than the general spec sheet type thing you see in magazines? I'm sorely tempted to build areproduction of it for myself as a (very) long term project sometime in the future, although the drivetrain might be a bit of an issue as it seems completely bespoke with nothing comparible in either racing or road aplications.

Jut to liven things up a bit, a selection pictures I've found around the internet myself. Feel free to add more if you have any.

[Mini1275]

"The most famous motorsport version of the 405, the rallying 405 Turbo 16 GR, was very different from the road-going 405. It was built in a coupe body style in mid-engine configuration, had constant four wheel drive with electronically-adjustable center differential like the 205 T16, as it was based on the same technology. Only two examples were made, one raced hill climbs and the other competed in the Paris-Dakar rally. Today, one is in the official Peugeot museum, and the other is in a private collection.

1988: Finnish driver Ari Vatanen set a new record in the Pikes Peak International Hillclimb (an award winning film of the drive titled Climb Dance was made by Jean Louis Mourey). Kankkunen and Piironen win the Paris-Dakar Rally in the 405 T16 GR.
1989: Victory in the Paris-Dakar rally by the Vatanen-Ickx team in a 405 T16 GR.
1990: Victory in the Paris-Dakar rally by the Vatanen-Berglund team in a 405 T16 GR"

After a quick search on the t'internet

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TL1At00mG4
^You might like to watch that aswell.

Edited by Mini1275 on Friday 18th December 09:12

[anonymous-user]

The rally raid version is quite a different car to the pikes peak version. The Pikes Peak version has rear wheel steer for example.

I think Geoff Page has a Pikes Peak version in his workshop, or he did fairly recently.

[onemorelap]

One of them was at the Chatsworth Rally Show this year, pic as the attached thread:

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

I had a good look round it in the paddock and it retained a nice patina, as though nothing had been done to it since it finshed it's last dakar (cosmetically at least).

[happygoron]

Might be worth asking the peugeot sport owners club at http://www.psooc.com - I expect some people there will know a thing or two about them!

[Save Ferris]

There was one (of the Pikes Peak variety) at Goodwood FOS in 2007





Edited to add this one, from Goodwood this year, must be the same car that was at
Chatsworth.

Edited by Save Ferris on Friday 18th December 19:36

[dome]

I remember reading back in the day that they kept extending the wheelbase of the 205 for stability reasons and used the 405 bodywork as the 205 was starting to look a bit stretched. Could be wrong though

There was a Citroen ZX version aswell which followed on from the same theme after Peugeot withdrew.

[anonymous-user]

Yep, the 205 T16 and it's evolutions suffered from the rear rising relative to the front on jumps due to the gyro effect of the engine internals and flywheel, as the engine is transverse and towards the rear of the CofG. Aero advances and a larger mass towards the rear would have helped calm it down, the longer wheelbase also helps on the type of event like a rally raid to make the car less tiring to drive. You would prefer more agility on tighter events like the WRC at the time, but you can go too far in that direction, the short wheelbase quattro was a nightmare to drive as a result of that, the drivers didnt want to drive that POS, they all wanted to run the longer car.

[Ravell]

johnfelstead said:

I think Geoff Page has a Pikes Peak version in his workshop, or he did fairly recently.

Sorry to dig up what is now an old thread, and excuse my ignorance, but who is Geoff Page? Only info I could find was this thread on PH (google leading me round in circles there! )

[lozriva]

Mini1275 said:

"The most famous motorsport version of the 405, the rallying 405 Turbo 16 GR, was very different from the road-going 405. It was built in a coupe body style in mid-engine configuration, had constant four wheel drive with electronically-adjustable center differential like the 205 T16, as it was based on the same technology. Only two examples were made, one raced hill climbs and the other competed in the Paris-Dakar rally. Today, one is in the official Peugeot museum, and the other is in a private collection.

1988: Finnish driver Ari Vatanen set a new record in the Pikes Peak International Hillclimb (an award winning film of the drive titled Climb Dance was made by Jean Louis Mourey). Kankkunen and Piironen win the Paris-Dakar Rally in the 405 T16 GR.
1989: Victory in the Paris-Dakar rally by the Vatanen-Ickx team in a 405 T16 GR.
1990: Victory in the Paris-Dakar rally by the Vatanen-Berglund team in a 405 T16 GR"

After a quick search on the t'internet

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TL1At00mG4
^You might like to watch that aswell.

Edited by Mini1275 on Friday 18th December 09:12

Awsome video mate, great find. Car looks rapid, anyone have specs for the different versions? O and remember when they actually had to leave the wheel like that to change gear! the guy is 4 wheel drifting with one hand! Amazing piece of car control

[Ravell]

lozriva said:

anyone have specs for the different versions?

What I've found so far from translating french magazine articles:

pikes peak version

Engine:

1905cc 4 cylinder 16v XU9T, alloy block and heads
mounted transversely and inclined by 20°
Belt-driven DOHC
Two stage variable length intake manifold
Forged 5 main bearing crankshaft
Dry sump lubrication
Bore 83mm, Stroke 88mm, compression ratio 6.5:1
Marelli-Solex injection system
Thomson ignition system
1 injector per cylinder with water injection in intercooler
Garrett turbo charger with air to water intercooler
Electronic boost control up to 3 bar
650hp at 7500rpm, 8500rpm max (340hp/l)
685Nm from 4500rpm to 5500rpm

Transmission:

TJ type gearbox
4wd with 33/67 front/rear split
Carbon clutch, epicyclic gear distribution
Road speed in gear at 8600rpm:
1 - 67 km/h
2 - 97 km/h
3 - 127 km/h
4 - 144 km/h
5 - 178 km/h
6 - 211 km/h
Axle ratio: 8x39, et demultiplication 19x29 en sortie de boile
Interlocking: 25/75 front/rear with disks

Chassis:

Central spaceframe made from stamped sheet metal and steel tubes
front and rear spaceframes from steel tubes
Composite fiber bodywork
Double wishbone front and rear suspension with 1 coilover damper per corner and antirollbars
Front and rear ventilated brake disks 327mm with AP Racing 4 piston calipers
Assisted rack and pinion steering on front wheels with machanical rear wheel steering system
2 turns lock to lock
Front tires: 225/50-16 (on track Michelin 25/64-16)
Rear tires: 270/45-16 (on track Michelin 26/64-16)

Dimensions:
Length: 4250mm
Width: 1760mm
Wheelbase: 2888mm
Front and rear track: 1430mm
Wet weight: 950kg
Weight distribution: 600/350kg front/rear
Oil capacity: 10 litres
Fuel Capacity: 35 litres

Grand Raid version - same as pikes peak with these differences

compression ratio 7.0:1
Boost up to 2.2 bar
400bhp at 7500rpm
490Nm at 400rpm
1400W triphase Valeo alternator

Two plate cerametalic clutch with hydraulic actuation
Ferguson type limited slip differential
Axle ratio 8/39 front and rear hypoid type

Double Bilstein coilover dampers on each corner
2.5 truns lock to lock
Tires: Michelin 18/73-16

Wet weight: 1300kg
Fuel capacity: 435 litres

[busa turbo]

Hi here's pic's just of 405 Pikes Peak car at Geoff Page Racing hope these are of some help!!!!

[HereBeMonsters]

OMG. Where is this garage? Better than any museum!

[Ravell]

HereBeMonsters said:

OMG. Where is this garage? Better than any museum!

That's what I'd like to know! I picked up from another thread that he occasionally holds open days and such. Does he have a website for his company?

Thanks for the pics Busa!

Edited by Ravell on Saturday 2nd January 23:26

[Porlock]

Awsome video mate, great find. Car looks rapid, anyone have specs for the different versions? O and remember when they actually had to leave the wheel like that to change gear! the guy is 4 wheel drifting with one hand! Amazing piece of car control
[/quote]

That Guy is, Ari Vatanen, In my opinion one of the best drivers ever!!

[Deng]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdvWNkg26AU&fea...
see the link above: 10 ton truck DAF x1 with spaceframe and two midengines and a total of more than 1200 hp Drive is Jan de Rooy overtaking Rally 405 with vatanen in 1988 2.45 start overtaking
http://albums.modelbrouwers.nl/coppermine/albums/u...
http://cache.jalopnik.com/assets/resources/2006/12...

Edited by Deng on Monday 8th November 15:26

Edited by Deng on Monday 8th November 15:29

[Rouleur]

That's an impressive vehicle. Seems to handle pretty well on a track too http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjpaFjLer8A&fea...

Oh, and welcome to the forum

[snowy slopes]

It seems geoff page racing is in malden in essex, and he is a car prep expert.

[Save Ferris]

Sorry to drag this thread up, but I found a video earlier which shows 3 of these at the Peugeot museum! So they must have produced at least 4 of them. (with the Pikes Peak version above)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YrnTgoTr1t8&fea...

[autofocus]

Hi there,

Only just seen this thread, heres a couple of shots of the car at Chatsworth in 2009.





Regards

Tim