The Land and Water Speed Records Thread

The Land and Water Speed Records Thread

Author
Discussion

dr_gn

12,980 posts

133 months

Monday 7th February 2011
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DJC said:
Google "Skvarm" or squarm or something and supersonic torpedo. That will answer your queries about the above.
Shkval:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VA-111_Shkval

http://www.popsci.com/scitech/article/2004-06/supe...

So does a WSR craft have to be 'on' water, or could it be 'in' water?

yoof full chav

29,613 posts

136 months

Monday 7th February 2011
quotequote all
dr_gn said:
DJC said:
Google "Skvarm" or squarm or something and supersonic torpedo. That will answer your queries about the above.
Shkval:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VA-111_Shkval

http://www.popsci.com/scitech/article/2004-06/supe...

So does a WSR craft have to be 'on' water, or could it be 'in' water?
I think the general rule with WSR craft, that it has to be some sort of boat, a sumbmersible would be out i think. A manned supercavitating torpedo design would be a no no under the rules i foresee, but it's a good idea, and might be worth a try, if you could get it run partially on the surface

dr_gn

12,980 posts

133 months

Monday 7th February 2011
quotequote all
yoof full chav said:
I think the general rule with WSR craft, that it has to be some sort of boat, a sumbmersible would be out i think. A manned supercavitating torpedo design would be a no no under the rules i foresee, but it's a good idea, and might be worth a try, if you could get it run partially on the surface
Must admit, I thought the main 'rule' was that control had to be via. contact with water (although I can't find a reference). I guess if it was written that the craft had to be 'in contact with the surface of the water' then a submersible could be allowed: just have the 'rudder' stiking upwards!

DJC

23,563 posts

185 months

Monday 7th February 2011
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Ah Shkval, well there you go. Been 10yrs since I last discussed them, last place I expected to discuss them was on here!

scubadude

2,614 posts

146 months

Tuesday 8th February 2011
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chevronb37 said:
This bike was at Brooklands a couple of years ago and set an LSR for pedalbikes apparently. Something in the order of 200mph I recall. My friend is pointing out the tagline "Ultimate Bike". Very mature...

I just caught up with this thread and have to call BS on all this roller/chase car bicycling records, surely to be a REAL records it should just be the bike itself (with rider) and no car to follow and actually doing the real MPH, as such the Bike LSR is surely Sam Wittingham- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQwpGLCAMm4 (82.3mph)

Back to powered records- I'd really like to see Bloodhound SSC succed at 1000mph but I do worry there is a monumental accident in the background!

I'd also like to see someone have a crack at the wheel driven record, I think its potentially the most breakable LSR record currently unchallenged as its been left "so" long

Echoing what others have said- the water speed record has to be the most dangerous due to the ever-changing nature of a water surface, even a ripple on the flatest lake can disturb the best boat at speed, when that speed is 400+ the results are never good! I've seen very high performance craft upset by wakes at less than 100knots have huge and tragic accidents.

yoof full chav

29,613 posts

136 months

Tuesday 8th February 2011
quotequote all
scubadude said:
chevronb37 said:
This bike was at Brooklands a couple of years ago and set an LSR for pedalbikes apparently. Something in the order of 200mph I recall. My friend is pointing out the tagline "Ultimate Bike". Very mature...

I just caught up with this thread and have to call BS on all this roller/chase car bicycling records, surely to be a REAL records it should just be the bike itself (with rider) and no car to follow and actually doing the real MPH, as such the Bike LSR is surely Sam Wittingham- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQwpGLCAMm4 (82.3mph)
To the best of my knowledge, there is nothing in the rulebook that says you cant use a car to shadow and help cut out the wind. However, the thing that stops the rollers being recognised as a record, must be that they didnt do a two way average, which is required for it to become an official record. Mind you, that is just my opinion, and i'm sure if you had a good look at the rulebook it would tell you in more deatil smile

scubadude

2,614 posts

146 months

Wednesday 9th February 2011
quotequote all
yoof full chav said:
To the best of my knowledge, there is nothing in the rulebook that says you cant use a car to shadow and help cut out the wind. However, the thing that stops the rollers being recognised as a record, must be that they didnt do a two way average, which is required for it to become an official record. Mind you, that is just my opinion, and i'm sure if you had a good look at the rulebook it would tell you in more deatil smile
So it'll be okay is SSC Bloodhound follows a missile or jet fighter to "slipstream" then?! Following something to set a speed record has no credibility IMO, whether its legal or not.

But especially for bicycles, wind resistance is the biggest hurdle due to the lack of power. Even a normal commuting bike can be got up to motorway speeds if you are willing to tailgate a car or van (if you've got the guts!) TOTALLY different ball game riding solo into stationary air.

Lastly the general public would find that claim very misleading, ask anyone how a Speed Record is set and they'll likely think it means riding, driving, sailing or whatever in a straight line as fast as possible.

Just IMVHO of course :-)

Life Saab Itch

Original Poster:

37,068 posts

137 months

Wednesday 9th February 2011
quotequote all
scubadude said:
Echoing what others have said- the water speed record has to be the most dangerous due to the ever-changing nature of a water surface, even a ripple on the flatest lake can disturb the best boat at speed, when that speed is 400+ the results are never good! I've seen very high performance craft upset by wakes at less than 100knots have huge and tragic accidents.
There are ways around that too if you think outside the box. wink

DJC really wants an email about this one. hehe

Nick M

3,613 posts

172 months

Wednesday 9th February 2011
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Life Saab Itch said:
There are ways around that too if you think outside the box. wink
I assume foils are not allowed ?

And hence any sort of underwater finned / winged device which creates sufficient lift to raise the hull clear of the water and hence away from the potentially dangerous surface variations ?

I'm thinking along the lines of the 'foil surfing' they do on the big waves around Hawaii - the boards have a wing device underneath which lifts them clear of the surface and allows them to surf massive waves in big winds without being thrown off the board by every ripple on the surface.


Life Saab Itch

Original Poster:

37,068 posts

137 months

Wednesday 9th February 2011
quotequote all
Nick M said:
I assume foils are not allowed ?

And hence any sort of underwater finned / winged device which creates sufficient lift to raise the hull clear of the water and hence away from the potentially dangerous surface variations ?

I'm thinking along the lines of the 'foil surfing' they do on the big waves around Hawaii - the boards have a wing device underneath which lifts them clear of the surface and allows them to surf massive waves in big winds without being thrown off the board by every ripple on the surface.
That's definitely "within the box" and there is a massive downside of friction involved in that.

dr_gn

12,980 posts

133 months

Wednesday 9th February 2011
quotequote all
I wonder if you could adapt something like this to be steered via. a minimal rudder?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_effect_vehicle

Snoggledog

6,302 posts

166 months

Wednesday 9th February 2011
quotequote all
dr_gn said:
I wonder if you could adapt something like this to be steered via. a minimal rudder?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_effect_vehicle
+1
I reckon the safest way is to use the WIG effect as 90%+ of the hull would be out of the water. In theory it should allow for much higher speeds.

dr_gn

12,980 posts

133 months

Wednesday 9th February 2011
quotequote all
Snoggledog said:
+1
I reckon the safest way is to use the WIG effect as 90%+ of the hull would be out of the water. In theory it should allow for much higher speeds.
If someone could find a copy of the WSR rules...it might help. I'm sure all these concepts have been considered and dismissed for good reasons by many prospective challengers.

'Course that's just me being my usual optimistic self.

Life Saab Itch

Original Poster:

37,068 posts

137 months

Wednesday 9th February 2011
quotequote all
The blades that DMC's K7 was running on would have counted as less than 1% of athe area of the hull. When at full speed, only about 1/8th of an inch is actually in the water.

They are by far the best solution. For keeping in contact with the water. If that isn't an issue, you may as well try and buy an ex-Soviet Ekranoplan and hit 400mph on the Caspian sea.

Life Saab Itch

Original Poster:

37,068 posts

137 months

Wednesday 9th February 2011
quotequote all
dr_gn said:
If someone could find a copy of the WSR rules...it might help. I'm sure all these concepts have been considered and dismissed for good reasons by many prospective challengers.

'Course that's just me being my usual optimistic self.
It would be a start.

I have looked, and I can't seem to find any.

Apart from asking the Quicksilver "team" for a copy, I guess you should ask the body that would be in charge of the verification.

I have no idea who that is though.

Nick M

3,613 posts

172 months

Wednesday 9th February 2011
quotequote all
Life Saab Itch said:
I guess you should ask the body that would be in charge of the verification.

I have no idea who that is though.
This lot:

http://www.uimpowerboating.com/vsite/vtrial/page/h...

Life Saab Itch

Original Poster:

37,068 posts

137 months

Wednesday 9th February 2011
quotequote all
Nick M said:
No relevant regs that I can find on that site.

dr_gn

12,980 posts

133 months

Wednesday 9th February 2011
quotequote all
Someone said it was among the regulations for offshore powerboat racing, but I can't find anything about WSR in those regs (not that I spent that much time on it).

Nick M

3,613 posts

172 months

Wednesday 9th February 2011
quotequote all
Life Saab Itch said:
No relevant regs that I can find on that site.
But at least you now know who to contact to ask for a set of regs... wink

yoof full chav

29,613 posts

136 months

Wednesday 9th February 2011
quotequote all
scubadude said:
yoof full chav said:
To the best of my knowledge, there is nothing in the rulebook that says you cant use a car to shadow and help cut out the wind. However, the thing that stops the rollers being recognised as a record, must be that they didnt do a two way average, which is required for it to become an official record. Mind you, that is just my opinion, and i'm sure if you had a good look at the rulebook it would tell you in more deatil smile
So it'll be okay is SSC Bloodhound follows a missile or jet fighter to "slipstream" then?! Following something to set a speed record has no credibility IMO, whether its legal or not.

But especially for bicycles, wind resistance is the biggest hurdle due to the lack of power. Even a normal commuting bike can be got up to motorway speeds if you are willing to tailgate a car or van (if you've got the guts!) TOTALLY different ball game riding solo into stationary air.

Lastly the general public would find that claim very misleading, ask anyone how a Speed Record is set and they'll likely think it means riding, driving, sailing or whatever in a straight line as fast as possible.

Just IMVHO of course :-)
Okay, you make some valid points, but i would like to make a few comments on some of your points. To the best of my knowledge, with the exception of the likes of thrust ssc/bloodhound etc, and the motorbike classes, the pushbike one is the only one to use it's own power to get away from a standing start, everything else is push started to get them upto speed.

Now if you asked a member of the public which was more record like in its execution, then i am sure some guy peddling his bike 10feet behind a modified doge viper from a stanstill, would hold more merit than some guy in a car who has to be pushed up to 60mph before he can set off under his own steam so to speak.


I dont disagree with you on the point of following the car, but them's the rules im afraid. smile