No right turn sign.

No right turn sign.

Author
Discussion

Baaaartz

Original Poster:

85 posts

9 months

Wednesday 3rd March
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Hi I made a stupid mistake this morning, coming into a job I had next to Finchley lane there is a no right turn sign on one of the streets, there is no traffic lights next to it before anyone asks it’s only a sign.

I have indeed seen cctv cameras looking at that road, what’s the crack with this?

What’s the fine and does it carry any points with it or is it just a simple payment with no points?


Baaaartz

Original Poster:

85 posts

9 months

Wednesday 3rd March
quotequote all
Just to make it clear the sign is on both sides of the road so no left turn and right turn, I know the picture is of the left turn.

lost in espace

5,257 posts

171 months

Wednesday 3rd March
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I think its just a fine. If it mentions cycles there probably is a camera.

Baaaartz

Original Poster:

85 posts

9 months

Wednesday 3rd March
quotequote all
Yea I seen the camera, it definitely is there 😂
Whenever I receive anything we will see soon I suppose, I thought that would carry points on your license with it though?

RB Will

6,938 posts

204 months

Wednesday 3rd March
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I got done for this about 3 years ago, reported by a dashcam knobber.

It was only something like a £30-45 fixed penalty, no points or endorsements. Unfortunately there was also an admin charge and victim surcharge, whoever the bloody victims of me pulling onto a clear 2 way road were? Which brought the total up to about £120-140.

No ideas for a name

957 posts

50 months

Wednesday 3rd March
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Baaaartz said:
What a strange restriction... if I was riding my bike on a Sunday and turned, I would be commiting an offence.

OllieJolly

225 posts

80 months

Wednesday 3rd March
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No ideas for a name said:
What a strange restriction... if I was riding my bike on a Sunday and turned, I would be commiting an offence.
I read it as only cyclists can turn (any time) but it's no left turn from those times for everyone else.
Now I'm not sure... that's worrying. read

No ideas for a name

957 posts

50 months

Wednesday 3rd March
quotequote all
OllieJolly said:
I read it as only cyclists can turn (any time) but it's no left turn from those times for everyone else.
Now I'm not sure... that's worrying. read
I had to refer to the Traffic Signs manual as I didn't think it was clear... it implies "Prohibition applies at all times.Cycles permitted during times shown"

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/governmen...

Page 34, Figure 4‑22 Supplementary time plates for banned turn signs

It isn't clear at all, in fact I am not 100% sure the sign says what they think it says. I wonder what the TRO actually says? (May be a get out for the OP).

Baaaartz

Original Poster:

85 posts

9 months

Wednesday 3rd March
quotequote all
No ideas for a name said:
I had to refer to the Traffic Signs manual as I didn't think it was clear... it implies "Prohibition applies at all times.Cycles permitted during times shown"

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/governmen...

Page 34, Figure 4?22 Supplementary time plates for banned turn signs

It isn't clear at all, in fact I am not 100% sure the sign says what they think it says. I wonder what the TRO actually says? (May be a get out for the OP).
I think the sign is only active during these hours, outside these hours I suppose it can be ignored?

Either way if the fine comes I suppose I’ll just pay it; I think with PCN they give you 50% off if you pay within certain amount of days.

I have read on another forum that people got done exactly on the same road as me, that resulted in 130 quid fine or 65 quid if paid within 7 days I believe.

I was only worrying if that carries points with it tbh for something so stupid.

Baaaartz

Original Poster:

85 posts

9 months

Wednesday 3rd March
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Regarding the post above.



Oceanrower

384 posts

76 months

Wednesday 3rd March
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Baaaartz said:
Regarding the post above.

Back to school for me then...

I’d have read that as no left turn except cycles that could (between those times).

But your saying any vehicle can turn left EXCEPT at those times but cycles still can...

No ideas for a name

957 posts

50 months

Wednesday 3rd March
quotequote all
Oceanrower said:
Back to school for me then...

I’d have read that as no left turn except cycles that could (between those times).

But your saying any vehicle can turn left EXCEPT at those times but cycles still can...
In my opinion, you are right. Which means the signs are wrong as they don't match the stated intent.

TSM seems to say that the time should be above the exception in order to convey the intended meaning.

Question now is, does a sign that doesn't match the TRO become unenforceable, even though that particular exemption isn't being relied upon to make the offence is complete?

Basic stuff that a Council should get right. However, around here some signs preventing cycling along a busy route in to town appeared one day... the actual intent was to warn drivers of cyclists rather than prevent cycling - but the Council didn't seem to know the difference between triangular warning signs and round prohibition signs! (Signs were changed sharpish).


Edited by No ideas for a name on Wednesday 3rd March 13:22

OllieJolly

225 posts

80 months

Wednesday 3rd March
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Wait, so does that mean I was right then after all?

I still wouldn't be confident.
Regardless, it's obviously confusing and needs further attention.

No ideas for a name

957 posts

50 months

Wednesday 3rd March
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OllieJolly said:
Wait, so does that mean I was right then after all?

I still wouldn't be confident.
Regardless, it's obviously confusing and needs further attention.
I still think it is the opposite.
However, any signage where you have to stop and pull out your latest copy of the Traffic Signs manual and look up the exception plates, then refer to the actual TRO... and discuss it on the internet, whould be defective signage to me!

We need one of the Highways experts to comment... is OpulentBob around?

sixor8

3,852 posts

232 months

Wednesday 3rd March
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Did I miss the obvious? It's reads clearly to me; only cycles can turn right (or left) during those times. To suggest they can't at other times would be bizarre.

Baaaartz

Original Poster:

85 posts

9 months

Wednesday 3rd March
quotequote all
Right 2 simple things, anyone advise on the first one is appreciated

1. This offence is dealt with a PCN, I suppose a fine and no points?

2. I had work down there, getting from the other side of the road was a bit of a pain, and it was almost impossible to reverse into it unless you came in the way I did (32tonne lorry in london is no fun lol).

Either way I probably won’t challenge the offence as I did commit it at the end of the day, as long as there is no points on license for his I’m happy, if anyone can clear this up for me please do.


flashbang

1,319 posts

38 months

Wednesday 3rd March
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The times shown apply to the signs, I'm guessing to stop the roads being used as rat runs during the busy times. They wouldn't want to stop cars going down there at midnight or 2am for example.

budgie smuggler

4,288 posts

123 months

Wednesday 3rd March
quotequote all
Oceanrower said:
Back to school for me then...

I’d have read that as no left turn except cycles that could (between those times).

But your saying any vehicle can turn left EXCEPT at those times but cycles still can...
these signs are crap, how are you supposed to parse and understand that while doing all the other stuff involved in driving? A simple light up sign with Closed to motor vehicles or open to all traffic would be a lot simpler and more reliable.

No ideas for a name

957 posts

50 months

Wednesday 3rd March
quotequote all
sixor8 said:
Did I miss the obvious? It's reads clearly to me; only cycles can turn right (or left) during those times. To suggest they can't at other times would be bizarre.
Maybe at cross purposes here, but of course they can't turn at times outside the stated time... The stated time is the exception.

From the TSM;



I think what the council intended is the time restriction followed by the exception for cycles.

Mr Pointy

7,765 posts

123 months

Wednesday 3rd March
quotequote all
sixor8 said:
Did I miss the obvious? It's reads clearly to me; only cycles can turn right (or left) during those times. To suggest they can't at other times would be bizarre.
Look at the post above this one: the sign in question is like the one on the right. The prohibition applies at all times for all vehicles including cycles except that cycles are allowed to turn between 6am & 10:30am & again between 3pm & 8:30pm.

I'm sure it's not what was meant but it seems to be what it says.