2001 996 C2 CSR

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Discussion

ATM

Original Poster:

14,678 posts

196 months

Friday 3rd December 2021
quotequote all
DuncanM said:
Sorry OP, but writing off two cars, in the exact same way, and not acknowledging that your driving needs to change in the conditions that both incidents occurred?

Skinnier tyres won't help you, driving to the conditions will.

CSR looks great, very tasteful for a modified Porsche.
You're absolutely right. I do blame myself. But even driving to the conditions with skinny tyres will be safer than fat tyres. Surely we can agree to that?

DuncanM

4,885 posts

256 months

Friday 3rd December 2021
quotequote all
ATM said:
You're absolutely right. I do blame myself. But even driving to the conditions with skinny tyres will be safer than fat tyres. Surely we can agree to that?
I guess so to a point, but for me, driving fast in those conditions, in a sports car = recipe for disaster.

Best just to pootle around and get home safely when it's that wet - both incidents must have been scary?

I hate motorways for fast driving, dangerous places at the best of times + unmarked cars etc.

ATM

Original Poster:

14,678 posts

196 months

Friday 3rd December 2021
quotequote all
DuncanM said:
ATM said:
You're absolutely right. I do blame myself. But even driving to the conditions with skinny tyres will be safer than fat tyres. Surely we can agree to that?
I guess so to a point, but for me, driving fast in those conditions, in a sports car = recipe for disaster.

Best just to pootle around and get home safely when it's that wet - both incidents must have been scary?

I hate motorways for fast driving, dangerous places at the best of times + unmarked cars etc.
I wasn't speeding. I can say this for definite.

But even at 70 [not sure if I was actually doing 70 because of poor visibility] you can still spin off in a light sports car with fat tyres.

DuncanM

4,885 posts

256 months

Friday 3rd December 2021
quotequote all
ATM said:
I wasn't speeding. I can say this for definite.

But even at 70 [not sure if I was actually doing 70 because of poor visibility] you can still spin off in a light sports car with fat tyres.
Both crashes would be due to acceleration - asking the rear wheels to go faster than the front. You will hopefully know this though.

You own and have owned some serious metal, and they need a delicate right foot in the sopping wet.

Slippydiff

13,457 posts

200 months

Friday 3rd December 2021
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DuncanM said:
Both crashes would be due to acceleration - asking the rear wheels to go faster than the front. You will hopefully know this though.

You own and have owned some serious metal, and they need a delicate right foot in the sopping wet.
You don’t need to be accelerating to aquaplane ... Sure if you’ve got the accelerator nailed it’ll exacerbate the problem, but you can aquaplane at 80mph on the lightest of throttles (or indeed no throttle at all) on a motorway with 8mm of surface water, when you’ve got 7mm of tyre tread. That’s not to suggest that lack of tread depth is always a major factor, as if there’s sufficient surface water and the tyre is incapable of moving it despite having plenty of tread, the car will still aquaplane.


samoht

3,301 posts

123 months

Saturday 4th December 2021
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I remember reading about this car in evo, nice to see it appear again.

DuncanM said:
I guess so to a point, but for me, driving fast in those conditions, in a sports car = recipe for disaster.
Best just to pootle around and get home safely when it's that wet - both incidents must have been scary?
Evo Tyre test said:
In a straight line we measured the maximum speed each tyre attained in 7mm of water before it overspeeded by 15 per cent.
  1. Dunlop Sport Maxx ... 45.5 mph
7mm isn't a very deep puddle, and 45mph isn't very fast - pootling speed, I'd say. This was the best-performing available brand-new premium tyre, on a nose-heavy Audi.

The belief that anyone who encounters aquaplaning must have had bald tyres or been driving badly is not only unfair on the OP, but it's also a dangerous misconception.

DuncanM

4,885 posts

256 months

Saturday 4th December 2021
quotequote all
samoht said:
7mm isn't a very deep puddle, and 45mph isn't very fast - pootling speed, I'd say. This was the best-performing available brand-new premium tyre, on a nose-heavy Audi.

The belief that anyone who encounters aquaplaning must have had bald tyres or been driving badly is not only unfair on the OP, but it's also a dangerous misconception.
This is dangerous rubbish, anyone blaming these crashes on anything other than not driving to the conditions is enabling poor driving, and will learn absolutely nothing.

I'm astounded tbh, it'd be nice if someone else would like to chime in on this? I didn't want to derail the thread, but this is utterly nuts?

Stegel

1,844 posts

151 months

Saturday 4th December 2021
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I’ve experienced aquaplaning in a months old, <5k mile (stated re tyre wear) E class estate - as far from the OP’s car as you can get. 75mph on cruise control on M74. Brilliant sunshine after heavy rain. The front end stepped out dramatically, but fortunately the car’s systems, and it finding dry tarmac, sorted it all out before I really knew what was happening, even so I was in a different lane by then.

Not a driving God, but I’d certainly say my driving was appropriate to the conditions. It’s in the “sh#t happens” category in my view, and bumbling along at 40mph in the same conditions would be far more dangerous.

Bright Halo

2,099 posts

212 months

Saturday 4th December 2021
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I believe you can theoretically experience aquaplaning above 45mph.
However there are many factors. Speed, tyre pressure, tyre size, depth of tread, depth of standing water etc.
There is a complicated equation that calculates aquaplaning speed but even this is flawed.
The real risk factors where possibility of losing traction grows exponentially are the combination of Tyre tread depth below 3mm, speed above 65mph and standing water greater than 10mm.
Vehicle weight not so much a factor although does play its part.
Lowering tyre pressures is a bad idea when surface water is present as the tyre can be more concave in the centre and prevent water from being pushed away.

I think a mod should move the aquaplaning posts away to form a separate discussion so we don’t clutter up this thread.

Slippydiff

13,457 posts

200 months

Saturday 4th December 2021
quotequote all
DuncanM said:
samoht said:
7mm isn't a very deep puddle, and 45mph isn't very fast - pootling speed, I'd say. This was the best-performing available brand-new premium tyre, on a nose-heavy Audi.

The belief that anyone who encounters aquaplaning must have had bald tyres or been driving badly is not only unfair on the OP, but it's also a dangerous misconception.
This is dangerous rubbish, anyone blaming these crashes on anything other than not driving to the conditions is enabling poor driving, and will learn absolutely nothing.

I'm astounded tbh, it'd be nice if someone else would like to chime in on this? I didn't want to derail the thread, but this is utterly nuts?
I’ll bite smile

On the basis of this response :

DuncanM said:
ATM said:
I wasn't speeding. I can say this for definite.

But even at 70 [not sure if I was actually doing 70 because of poor visibility] you can still spin off in a light sports car with fat tyres.
Both crashes would be due to acceleration - asking the rear wheels to go faster than the front. You will hopefully know this though.

You own and have owned some serious metal, and they need a delicate right foot in the sopping wet.
It would appear your understanding of what aquaplaning is, and what causes it, maybe somewhat lacking.

Firstly it has nothing to do with the speed differential between the front and rear wheels, and as I and Samoht have said, you don’t need to have the throttled pinned heavily to experience aquaplaning, because aquaplaning occurs when the depth of surface water on the road is such that the tyre driving through it, is incapable of clearing sufficient water to enable the tyre to remain in contact with the road.
When this happens the tyre will effectively be raised up by the bow wave formed in front of it, and onto the plane” ie it will be riding on the surface of the standing water.
At this point you’ll experience the horrible feeling the OP felt, that being the steering going extremely light (as if driving on ice) the car feeling unstable, and if you were to lift off/brake, you’d find the brakes ineffective, and the car would most likely start to rotate, by the time most drivers have established what’s going on, it’s too late and the car will more than likely have sufficient momentum that the ensuing spin will be all but uncatchable in the space available.
As Samoht and I have stated, this can happen at as little as 45mph, or on the motorway/autobahn at much higher speeds.

All too often the driver won’t even see the heavy surface water at all, or until it’s too late.

Whilst I agree one should drive to the weather conditions, all too often aquaplaning can occur because of poorly drained/designed roads or blocked drains and gulleys.

DuncanM

4,885 posts

256 months

Saturday 4th December 2021
quotequote all
Oh how strange, I honestly thought people would chime in on my side hehe

I still believe acceleration would make the crashes much more likely, I didn't state that acceleration causes aquaplaning in my post, but was trying to nudge the OP towards looking at his driving.

Cars are inanimate objects.

Single vehicle accidents are (typically) the fault of the driver.

Having two exact same crashes should make you question your driving, and not hunt for skinnier tyres as a solution.

Blaming xyz instead of driving inappropriately for the conditions is a concerning mindset, I'd hate for the OP, or anyone else to be hurt due to not changing said mindset.

Slippydiff

13,457 posts

200 months

Saturday 4th December 2021
quotequote all
Bright Halo said:
I believe you can theoretically experience aquaplaning above 45mph.
However there are many factors. Speed, tyre pressure, tyre size, depth of tread, depth of standing water etc.
There is a complicated equation that calculates aquaplaning speed but even this is flawed.
The real risk factors where possibility of losing traction grows exponentially are the combination of Tyre tread depth below 3mm, speed above 65mph and standing water greater than 10mm.
Vehicle weight not so much a factor although does play its part.
Lowering tyre pressures is a bad idea when surface water is present as the tyre can be more concave in the centre and prevent water from being pushed away.

I think a mod should move the aquaplaning posts away to form a separate discussion so we don’t clutter up this thread.
The OP already has a thread titled “Aquaplaned” on PH Porsche forum smile

samoht

3,301 posts

123 months

Saturday 4th December 2021
quotequote all
I've attempted to start a new thread in General Gassing to have a separate discussion of the aquaplaning question, distinct from ATM sharing his rather nice 996 - suggest we go there to continue?

Slippydiff

13,457 posts

200 months

Saturday 4th December 2021
quotequote all
DuncanM said:
Oh how strange, I honestly thought people would chime in on my side hehe

I still believe acceleration would make the crashes much more likely, I didn't state that acceleration causes aquaplaning in my post, but was trying to nudge the OP towards looking at his driving.

Cars are inanimate objects.

Single vehicle accidents are (typically) the fault of the driver.

Having two exact same crashes should make you question your driving, and not hunt for skinnier tyres as a solution.

Blaming xyz instead of driving inappropriately for the conditions is a concerning mindset, I'd hate for the OP, or anyone else to be hurt due to not changing said mindset.
Ah I see, you just don’t want to accept what others are telling you biggrin
No matter, keep “believing” what you want to whilst it’s still a free (ish) world smile

DuncanM

4,885 posts

256 months

Saturday 4th December 2021
quotequote all
Slippydiff said:
Ah I see, you just don’t want to accept what others are telling you biggrin
No matter, keep “believing” what you want to whilst it’s still a free (ish) world smile
I'm not sure what you're getting at tbh, I have said that acceleration doesn't cause aquaplaning, more that it will certainly assist in you binning two Boxsters smile

I have no interest in giving the OP a virtual "not your fault hug" relating to aquaplaning, he's binned two cars in exactly the same circumstances - by his own admission.

ATM

Original Poster:

14,678 posts

196 months

Saturday 4th December 2021
quotequote all
DuncanM said:
Slippydiff said:
Ah I see, you just don’t want to accept what others are telling you biggrin
No matter, keep “believing” what you want to whilst it’s still a free (ish) world smile
I'm not sure what you're getting at tbh, I have said that acceleration doesn't cause aquaplaning, more that it will certainly assist in you binning two Boxsters smile

I have no interest in giving the OP a virtual "not your fault hug" relating to aquaplaning, he's binned two cars in exactly the same circumstances - by his own admission.
I don't want a hug thanks.

I have taken responsibility.

I'm a big boy.

ATM

Original Poster:

14,678 posts

196 months

Saturday 4th December 2021
quotequote all
ATM said:
Went to show off to a couple of my mates last night. One of them also commented on the light steering feel when just turning in which happens occasionally. I still want to get my guy to check the alignment. Thats on the To Do list after the MOT which is due in a few weeks so I'd like to get that done sooner rather than later.
Car related news:

Booked in for MOT on Tuesday

Slippydiff

13,457 posts

200 months

Saturday 4th December 2021
quotequote all
DuncanM said:
I'm not sure what you're getting at tbh, I have said that acceleration doesn't cause aquaplaning, more that it will certainly assist in you binning two Boxsters smile
Which is it ? Make your mind up hehe

DuncanM said:
I have no interest in giving the OP a virtual "not your fault hug" relating to aquaplaning, he's binned two cars in exactly the same circumstances - by his own admission.
The OP neither asked for nor wanted one, and I certainly wasn't offering him one, yet you appear to think you were in some way obliged to ... confused

Bizarre.

DuncanM

4,885 posts

256 months

Saturday 4th December 2021
quotequote all
ATM said:
I don't want a hug thanks.

I have taken responsibility.

I'm a big boy.
No offence meant by any of my posts, I wish you all the best.

LazyMechanic

493 posts

8 months

Saturday 4th December 2021
quotequote all
DuncanM said:
This is dangerous rubbish, anyone blaming these crashes on anything other than not driving to the conditions is enabling poor driving, and will learn absolutely nothing.

I'm astounded tbh, it'd be nice if someone else would like to chime in on this? I didn't want to derail the thread, but this is utterly nuts?
Sorry, but a suddenly hitting some deep standing water on even the slightest of bends can get you aquaplaning.

There is a section of the M25 anti clockwise as you come passed Watford that drops down and to the left, and at the bottom it used to pool when it rained hard.
This bit would get people aquaplaning all the time and had to be sorted.

I saw brand new BMW do it once right in front of me, the guy spun round 2 or 3 times and we were doing 50mph at most. I pulled over to check he was OK.
He had only had the car a month or so and only do 1500 miles in it, he said he thought that was it.
I said it looked pretty cool as he stopped spinning and pulled into the hard shoulder. laugh

We knew that happened a lot as the police car that pulled up behind us told us so.




Edit: Oops, missed the other posts.