[Project Post] Citroen AX SPORT 16v [lots of pics]
Discussion
When money permits me to buy one, i'll likley be fitting a GT28RS.. although they are internally wastegated i'll just have to fiddle with it to suit with my external.
Every other project thread i read about saxo/106 turbo's i keep thinking hmm, 300hp sounds good although i think realistically 250atw is more than enough for a serious track toy, considering my suspension setup also. Should be a real weapon on track.
Really looking forward to improving driving skills on track though once its done!
Every other project thread i read about saxo/106 turbo's i keep thinking hmm, 300hp sounds good although i think realistically 250atw is more than enough for a serious track toy, considering my suspension setup also. Should be a real weapon on track.
Really looking forward to improving driving skills on track though once its done!
My Saab had 252.4 at the wheels (near 300 flywheel) and at 1,275 kg it weighed almost twice as much as your car. To be honest, that car was intense enough for me, FWD and all...Jessop said:
When money permits me to buy one, i'll likley be fitting a GT28RS.. although they are internally wastegated i'll just have to fiddle with it to suit with my external.
Every other project thread i read about saxo/106 turbo's i keep thinking hmm, 300hp sounds good although i think realistically 250atw is more than enough for a serious track toy, considering my suspension setup also. Should be a real weapon on track.
Really looking forward to improving driving skills on track though once its done!
The spud is a fantastic turbo, might be a little big for a 1400 though, how high is the rev limiter?Every other project thread i read about saxo/106 turbo's i keep thinking hmm, 300hp sounds good although i think realistically 250atw is more than enough for a serious track toy, considering my suspension setup also. Should be a real weapon on track.
Really looking forward to improving driving skills on track though once its done!
Sorry, I should have posted up stating that these turbo bits are for the 16v 1.6 engine NOT the 1.4 8v !
The GT28RS will be fine on the 16v. Plenty have used it without issue. Its the GT3071R that most of the drag saxo's use from what ive seen.
Im impressed every time i see this clip of a turbo running said turbo! Far too laggy for my application though.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Or3rvR7Y8Co
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=DAu_YFtnC_8
The GT28RS will be fine on the 16v. Plenty have used it without issue. Its the GT3071R that most of the drag saxo's use from what ive seen.
Im impressed every time i see this clip of a turbo running said turbo! Far too laggy for my application though.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Or3rvR7Y8Co
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=DAu_YFtnC_8
How's all the rust after nearly a years time? Did it come back again anywhere?
There have been some brown spots here and there and I wonder if they showed up.
I am doing my car now - wheel arches, I have grinded back to bare metal and acidified (something like kurust), then zinced, just as you did. Wonder the strength of it :-)
There have been some brown spots here and there and I wonder if they showed up.
I am doing my car now - wheel arches, I have grinded back to bare metal and acidified (something like kurust), then zinced, just as you did. Wonder the strength of it :-)
Car is still in my lockup at the moment. I just put a load of zinc primer over it to preserve it while it was in storage...
Once ive got the time / money to plow into prep work for the body i'll update some more. Have lots of turbo bits & gearbox bits to purchase first though!
As yet though its fine even after sitting a year, bare in mind though that it wasnt sat outside (in my ownership) where as before, while it was sat outside for a year (see original post) it didnt rust 'too' badly, other than what youve seen in the original post in this thread. It could have been a lot worse.
Im sure if you prep your car/metal right, kurust or whichever you prefer and apply a suitable epoxy primer onto the bare metal it will be fine for a long time to come, unless it doesnt get looked after etc!
Best of luck though!
Once ive got the time / money to plow into prep work for the body i'll update some more. Have lots of turbo bits & gearbox bits to purchase first though!
As yet though its fine even after sitting a year, bare in mind though that it wasnt sat outside (in my ownership) where as before, while it was sat outside for a year (see original post) it didnt rust 'too' badly, other than what youve seen in the original post in this thread. It could have been a lot worse.
Im sure if you prep your car/metal right, kurust or whichever you prefer and apply a suitable epoxy primer onto the bare metal it will be fine for a long time to come, unless it doesnt get looked after etc!
Best of luck though!
Gearbox and BE driveshafts arrived today from a citroen picasso.
Need custom engine mounts to fit the gearbox, various other custom bits like hydraulic clutch to cable clutch, + a LHD peugeot partner clutch cable, possibly even a custom one - wil have to see. Need custom driveshafts also - these are for mock up as i will be retaining the inner and outer CV joints , they are FAR stronger than the saxo & 106 'MA' type driveshafts, as you can see in the picture below.
Need custom engine mounts to fit the gearbox, various other custom bits like hydraulic clutch to cable clutch, + a LHD peugeot partner clutch cable, possibly even a custom one - wil have to see. Need custom driveshafts also - these are for mock up as i will be retaining the inner and outer CV joints , they are FAR stronger than the saxo & 106 'MA' type driveshafts, as you can see in the picture below.
UPDATE
Sick of worrying about how to attack this project.. so decided to crack on over the weekend.
Gearbox Mounts to be made up over the next week, and driveshaft to be measured & shortened to suit once thats done... So can then crack on with wiring. Have decided to sell the Omex, and going Adaptronic instead now, using 8 injectors and a custom inlet manifold which should be made over the next few weeks too. Will look very similar to the DP one.
UPDATE
Genuine citroen mounts, brackets and bushes arrived today, along with a few nuts/washers to make sure its all 'OE'. Theres a queer 'D' shaped washer that goes on the BE mount for example.
More to come once ive had chance to fit it all and had the BE bracket/inner wing mount welded to the AX.
Been shopping for loom bits of late also, so much choice not sure what connectors etc to use yet - will need some advice on that soon. [-o<
UPDATE
For the first time in something like two years, the Sport has an engine sat in the bay, on engine mounts instead of a jack!.. Only this time, with a much bigger gearbox =]
Had a right faff on though with the other mounts as the box section this 'OE' bush sits on was at an odd angle where somebody previously had their attempt at reinforcing it. That required re-making so it sat level. The battery tray was cut out, measurements were taken so the engine sat bang on level in the bay - then i proceeded to tack the 'Picasso' mount on the inner wing. Ive stitched welded across the top and bottom, and two plug welds - proceeded to jump on it once it was done and it wasnt going anywhere so confident the welds have done their job.
Bare in mind though that ive never really welded before, and this is my first attempt at any kind of 'fabrication' work so im happy with how its turned out. It needs a bit of tidying mind but it was late and i've got work tomorrow.
I'll be making the rear engine mount on Tuesday. Ive already got the engine in the bay at the correct angle it needs to sit at, The shafts are a bloody tight fit against the front arms ! The box , with it being bigger than the normal AX/Saxo/106 type is also bloody close to the inner wing too- had to completely ground down whatever trace of the original battery tray supports. Will have to improvise if this causes an issue on track under load, same goes for the shafts and the front arms !
I'll let pics do the talking. =]
Prodded some more at this side..
Decided cut it out and start from scratch..
New piece mocked up.. Looked about right
Didnt think the welds were 'too' bad considering im a rookie
Finished welding this in, checked and drilled the holes for the Forte mount i'm using.
[i]Supporting plate for the underside of the mount pictured above.. For extra support![/]
Box sectioned off after cutting..
mocking up..
CLOSE..
Welded in piece
End piece for support welded on
Engine level in the bay
The 'BE' 'Pin' type mount
Diff housing pretty close to lower arm
Decided to take a break and re-check measurements at this point.. 'Measure twice.. cut once' so they say =]
Tacked on 'picasso' tray
First time the car has had an engine support itself for two year..
Stitch welded across the top
Voila..
I'll probably box off the front/back bits i think too for a bit extra support, but i very much doubt it'd move anywhere as it is. Dont want to chance it with the torque i'll be running with the turbo engine on track though.. Some of those apex's are big !
Trial run of some straight pipe between the diff and the wheel hubs..
I need to get some Pug 306 type wheel hubs and have them machined down to fit the AX wheel bearings now so i can crack on making some mock-up shafts. I've a pair of citroen Picasso shafts in the garage, i intend on keeping the Intermediate bearing carrier.. It wont quite be bang on equal length, but nearer than one massivley logn shaft, and one really short !
Sick of worrying about how to attack this project.. so decided to crack on over the weekend.
Gearbox Mounts to be made up over the next week, and driveshaft to be measured & shortened to suit once thats done... So can then crack on with wiring. Have decided to sell the Omex, and going Adaptronic instead now, using 8 injectors and a custom inlet manifold which should be made over the next few weeks too. Will look very similar to the DP one.
UPDATE
Genuine citroen mounts, brackets and bushes arrived today, along with a few nuts/washers to make sure its all 'OE'. Theres a queer 'D' shaped washer that goes on the BE mount for example.
More to come once ive had chance to fit it all and had the BE bracket/inner wing mount welded to the AX.
Been shopping for loom bits of late also, so much choice not sure what connectors etc to use yet - will need some advice on that soon. [-o<
UPDATE
For the first time in something like two years, the Sport has an engine sat in the bay, on engine mounts instead of a jack!.. Only this time, with a much bigger gearbox =]
Had a right faff on though with the other mounts as the box section this 'OE' bush sits on was at an odd angle where somebody previously had their attempt at reinforcing it. That required re-making so it sat level. The battery tray was cut out, measurements were taken so the engine sat bang on level in the bay - then i proceeded to tack the 'Picasso' mount on the inner wing. Ive stitched welded across the top and bottom, and two plug welds - proceeded to jump on it once it was done and it wasnt going anywhere so confident the welds have done their job.
Bare in mind though that ive never really welded before, and this is my first attempt at any kind of 'fabrication' work so im happy with how its turned out. It needs a bit of tidying mind but it was late and i've got work tomorrow.
I'll be making the rear engine mount on Tuesday. Ive already got the engine in the bay at the correct angle it needs to sit at, The shafts are a bloody tight fit against the front arms ! The box , with it being bigger than the normal AX/Saxo/106 type is also bloody close to the inner wing too- had to completely ground down whatever trace of the original battery tray supports. Will have to improvise if this causes an issue on track under load, same goes for the shafts and the front arms !
I'll let pics do the talking. =]
Prodded some more at this side..
Decided cut it out and start from scratch..
New piece mocked up.. Looked about right
Didnt think the welds were 'too' bad considering im a rookie
Finished welding this in, checked and drilled the holes for the Forte mount i'm using.
[i]Supporting plate for the underside of the mount pictured above.. For extra support![/]
Box sectioned off after cutting..
mocking up..
CLOSE..
Welded in piece
End piece for support welded on
Engine level in the bay
The 'BE' 'Pin' type mount
Diff housing pretty close to lower arm
Decided to take a break and re-check measurements at this point.. 'Measure twice.. cut once' so they say =]
Tacked on 'picasso' tray
First time the car has had an engine support itself for two year..
Stitch welded across the top
Voila..
I'll probably box off the front/back bits i think too for a bit extra support, but i very much doubt it'd move anywhere as it is. Dont want to chance it with the torque i'll be running with the turbo engine on track though.. Some of those apex's are big !
Trial run of some straight pipe between the diff and the wheel hubs..
I need to get some Pug 306 type wheel hubs and have them machined down to fit the AX wheel bearings now so i can crack on making some mock-up shafts. I've a pair of citroen Picasso shafts in the garage, i intend on keeping the Intermediate bearing carrier.. It wont quite be bang on equal length, but nearer than one massivley logn shaft, and one really short !
Quick update on this thread as it's been forever and i'm somewhat motivated as of late.
Got the engine in situ all fine now. Rear engine mount was welded up so i can still use a standard rear bush (powerflex in this case) so it's not running solid which ultimately caused it to retire from it's last rally from a snapped mount!
Had some peugeot 306 wheel hubs turned down to fit the 38mm (iirc?) Saxo wheel bearing i'm using in my struts. All alignment with the caliper is fine too so cooking on gas in that respect.
Also had the O/S driveshaft turned down and welded up by Scott at efi-parts. I had every faith this will work fine considering he uses the same method on his 700+bhp Renault 5.
Picked up some wheels too
Some more goodies arrived in the post..
During winter i made a start knocking up a wiring diagram too so I know what i'm doing when it comes to pulling the wires through. Will be making a full harness from ground up so no need to worry about chopping out a RHD dash loom to suit a LHD car - the original wiring harness on the car was an absolute mess of bullet connectors which had come apart etc. Making a new one is just easier (and lighter!!!)
I ended up moving unit's too after mine got broken into. pretty much all my tools dissapeared, along with a stainless exhust, engine crane the works. Absolute nightmare and a set back for funding the project
Car is now best part of an hours drive away each way so now it's a chore really BUT at least i know it's safe where it is.
Had to stick the bonnet etc back on the car , really looked the part!
Made a start on the interior and finished welding up holes in the floorpan and got the A & B pillars welded on. Looks mean now.
Had a little mess on and put the manifold on to see what it looks like.
.. Spent an eternity sanding and removing as much paint from the interior i could too remove any rust etc. Lashed down some etch primer on it and sorted out welding some
Discovered i need a new sill too on the O/S which i'll get sorted in the next few weeks. I'm torn what to do about painting the interior and engine bay mind. Should i aerosol it or just blast some cellulose over it and hope it comes up shiny, considering i can't buff it really due to no panel being flat haha.
Sure there's been some bit's i've missed out too. However i have a month off in September. Whether i decide to blitz this. get it painted and wired up and bolt the new engine in is the question - or do i book tickets to go travelling round Thailand, the greek islands etc and yet again delay this project? hmmm
Got the engine in situ all fine now. Rear engine mount was welded up so i can still use a standard rear bush (powerflex in this case) so it's not running solid which ultimately caused it to retire from it's last rally from a snapped mount!
Had some peugeot 306 wheel hubs turned down to fit the 38mm (iirc?) Saxo wheel bearing i'm using in my struts. All alignment with the caliper is fine too so cooking on gas in that respect.
Also had the O/S driveshaft turned down and welded up by Scott at efi-parts. I had every faith this will work fine considering he uses the same method on his 700+bhp Renault 5.
Picked up some wheels too
Some more goodies arrived in the post..
During winter i made a start knocking up a wiring diagram too so I know what i'm doing when it comes to pulling the wires through. Will be making a full harness from ground up so no need to worry about chopping out a RHD dash loom to suit a LHD car - the original wiring harness on the car was an absolute mess of bullet connectors which had come apart etc. Making a new one is just easier (and lighter!!!)
I ended up moving unit's too after mine got broken into. pretty much all my tools dissapeared, along with a stainless exhust, engine crane the works. Absolute nightmare and a set back for funding the project
Car is now best part of an hours drive away each way so now it's a chore really BUT at least i know it's safe where it is.
Had to stick the bonnet etc back on the car , really looked the part!
Made a start on the interior and finished welding up holes in the floorpan and got the A & B pillars welded on. Looks mean now.
Had a little mess on and put the manifold on to see what it looks like.
.. Spent an eternity sanding and removing as much paint from the interior i could too remove any rust etc. Lashed down some etch primer on it and sorted out welding some
Discovered i need a new sill too on the O/S which i'll get sorted in the next few weeks. I'm torn what to do about painting the interior and engine bay mind. Should i aerosol it or just blast some cellulose over it and hope it comes up shiny, considering i can't buff it really due to no panel being flat haha.
Sure there's been some bit's i've missed out too. However i have a month off in September. Whether i decide to blitz this. get it painted and wired up and bolt the new engine in is the question - or do i book tickets to go travelling round Thailand, the greek islands etc and yet again delay this project? hmmm
Well it's always a learning curve.. It seems the work i did before (by hand with grit paper and a scraper) was a bit meaningless really.
Speaking to some people and looking at various race car prep blogs i've decided to just strip it to bare metal (well, the important bits anyway!) and go from there after noticing this etch primer reacting in some places and a bit of surface rust around some edges appearing after only a few weeks.
Currently stripping the underside of the car and invested in some Bilt Hamber Electrox zinc rich primer and their Epoxy Mastic paint, which will serve as underseal. I have some Dynax S50 for cavity protection & various box sections such as sills etc.
After speaking to them on the phone they will be releasing a 'stone chip' solution for wheel arches so we'll go from there on that front, but the epoxy mastic they said should stand up well enough without any additional 'waxy' protection on top..
NOTE.. THIS IS AN EXTREMELY TIME CONSUMING , FRUSTRATING JOB.. .. and that's before i even get to the mess as a result lol. The R5 GT Turbo and 205 Mi16 in the unit fortunately have dust sheets on, would be an awkward clean up job otherwise..
Few pics of progress.. i'll start with this repairs on the sill I did not too long ago, please bare in mind I'm still a total novice with fabrication and the welder but turned out okay
Tidy up with the grinder, some seam seal, filler & paint and came out okay. solid now which is the main thing! it wont be seen under the bodykit anyway..
Speaking to some people and looking at various race car prep blogs i've decided to just strip it to bare metal (well, the important bits anyway!) and go from there after noticing this etch primer reacting in some places and a bit of surface rust around some edges appearing after only a few weeks.
Currently stripping the underside of the car and invested in some Bilt Hamber Electrox zinc rich primer and their Epoxy Mastic paint, which will serve as underseal. I have some Dynax S50 for cavity protection & various box sections such as sills etc.
After speaking to them on the phone they will be releasing a 'stone chip' solution for wheel arches so we'll go from there on that front, but the epoxy mastic they said should stand up well enough without any additional 'waxy' protection on top..
NOTE.. THIS IS AN EXTREMELY TIME CONSUMING , FRUSTRATING JOB.. .. and that's before i even get to the mess as a result lol. The R5 GT Turbo and 205 Mi16 in the unit fortunately have dust sheets on, would be an awkward clean up job otherwise..
Few pics of progress.. i'll start with this repairs on the sill I did not too long ago, please bare in mind I'm still a total novice with fabrication and the welder but turned out okay
Tidy up with the grinder, some seam seal, filler & paint and came out okay. solid now which is the main thing! it wont be seen under the bodykit anyway..
Here's the progress with the underside & underseal 'project' stage.
I'll start with this one..
Here's how it looked before anyway.
Removed the waxoyl with thinners on the floorpans to see what it looked like..
various battle scars from rallying days with the brown stuff lurking..
Weapons of choice...
Started stripping a front NS arch/inner wing.. Most of it was fine, a few bits that i'm happy i stripped it back for though. Especially on the plate that's been welded up inside the top of the arch for reinforcement i guess. (it's all twin-skinned)
Stripped underside floorpan back.. See various holes from pop-rivets etc that have been welded over already.
Tea break..
Rear floorpan work in progress. (now mostly done)
Thinners to remove the massive amount of waxoyl in the rear arches.. Makes life much easier to remove just the stone chip than it is with the waxoyl on top.
The 'easy' access bit stripped. All seems fine!! Just the bits round the edges of the arch and the bumper mounts that have a bit of surface rust on.
Your probably thinking it doesnt seem too bad right? Well truth be told it really isnt, but it still needs work.. see below.
Mafia had a field day on this..
Some work needed on box section near the front underneith.
B Pillar floor mounting point. the original skin of the shell has completely failed. got replaced.
welded and seam sealed.
Do have some goodies though. Lower arm/kidney plate strengthening plates to weld inside. Will do a good job. the upper side has been twin skinned already, i will also weld some bars down to them from the bulkhead or top mounts (either or) for extra strength.
Three litres of this (hope it's enough) to go on soon. Once those rear arches are done, and i'm going to strip the sill's back too so everything under the bodykit is properly protected (and there's no more nasties hidden!)
This for primer
http://www.bilthamber.com/paints-and-coatings/elec...
This is the epoxy mastic. Again, i hope 3 litres will be enough.. It all adds up!
http://www.bilthamber.com/paints-and-coatings/epox...
For cavities - Dynax S50
http://www.bilthamber.com/cavity-waxes/dynax-s50
Thanks for Bilt Hamber for being so prompt with delivery and for the good advice over the phone
More to come.
I'll start with this one..
Here's how it looked before anyway.
Removed the waxoyl with thinners on the floorpans to see what it looked like..
various battle scars from rallying days with the brown stuff lurking..
Weapons of choice...
Started stripping a front NS arch/inner wing.. Most of it was fine, a few bits that i'm happy i stripped it back for though. Especially on the plate that's been welded up inside the top of the arch for reinforcement i guess. (it's all twin-skinned)
Stripped underside floorpan back.. See various holes from pop-rivets etc that have been welded over already.
Tea break..
Rear floorpan work in progress. (now mostly done)
Thinners to remove the massive amount of waxoyl in the rear arches.. Makes life much easier to remove just the stone chip than it is with the waxoyl on top.
The 'easy' access bit stripped. All seems fine!! Just the bits round the edges of the arch and the bumper mounts that have a bit of surface rust on.
Your probably thinking it doesnt seem too bad right? Well truth be told it really isnt, but it still needs work.. see below.
Mafia had a field day on this..
Some work needed on box section near the front underneith.
B Pillar floor mounting point. the original skin of the shell has completely failed. got replaced.
welded and seam sealed.
Do have some goodies though. Lower arm/kidney plate strengthening plates to weld inside. Will do a good job. the upper side has been twin skinned already, i will also weld some bars down to them from the bulkhead or top mounts (either or) for extra strength.
Three litres of this (hope it's enough) to go on soon. Once those rear arches are done, and i'm going to strip the sill's back too so everything under the bodykit is properly protected (and there's no more nasties hidden!)
This for primer
http://www.bilthamber.com/paints-and-coatings/elec...
This is the epoxy mastic. Again, i hope 3 litres will be enough.. It all adds up!
http://www.bilthamber.com/paints-and-coatings/epox...
For cavities - Dynax S50
http://www.bilthamber.com/cavity-waxes/dynax-s50
Thanks for Bilt Hamber for being so prompt with delivery and for the good advice over the phone
More to come.
I forgot to add also, engine is built!
Spec:
16k JP4 block,
Wossner pistons,
PEC rods,
ACL race bearings,
Peugeot Sport Sump Baffle,
CAT Cams 734 turbo cams (new grind),
Well ported head with cut back valve guides,
RS turbo spark plugs,
Lightweight alloy alternator pulley kit,
Modified sump for oil feed,
Modified thermostat housing for turbo water feed
JP4S Alloy inlet manifold
630cc Injectors
Helix 6paddle clutch. Although I'll probably come to fit an AP Twin plate before it goes in the car.
Adaptronic ECU
Still undecided on a GTX2860 turbo yet. I've noticed Owen Developments have a GT25/28 hybrid which they say is ideal for a 1.6 > 2.0 for 170 - 270bhp.
Realistically this may offer a better solution for a track/circuit car rather than making even more power higher up the rpm range.
The quaife/gripper (whichever i choose) diff and the BE box should be up to the job!
Spec:
16k JP4 block,
Wossner pistons,
PEC rods,
ACL race bearings,
Peugeot Sport Sump Baffle,
CAT Cams 734 turbo cams (new grind),
Well ported head with cut back valve guides,
RS turbo spark plugs,
Lightweight alloy alternator pulley kit,
Modified sump for oil feed,
Modified thermostat housing for turbo water feed
JP4S Alloy inlet manifold
630cc Injectors
Helix 6paddle clutch. Although I'll probably come to fit an AP Twin plate before it goes in the car.
Adaptronic ECU
Still undecided on a GTX2860 turbo yet. I've noticed Owen Developments have a GT25/28 hybrid which they say is ideal for a 1.6 > 2.0 for 170 - 270bhp.
Realistically this may offer a better solution for a track/circuit car rather than making even more power higher up the rpm range.
The quaife/gripper (whichever i choose) diff and the BE box should be up to the job!
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